Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

Rocinante said:
But you told me it might wasn't happening, thay Ukrainians were all for the war and the draft and that you haven't heard of people being against it.
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12k Russian sympathizers and agents trying to escape isn't something that points to Ukrainians on the whole not supporting the defense and survival of their nation.
Rocinante said:
Well here's 12,000 of them who are. And now you're making up new excuses.
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No, you are trying to twist the situation, play up a tiny amount of Russian sympathizers as a huge part of the UA population being against the war, and ignore the larger context, because you got your head up your ass and think predicting Trump and Biden mean you are suddenly an expert on military matters of foreign nations.
Rocinante said:
Then you said it's to gather up Russian sympathizers, but Ukraine itself said the ban was to mobilize more troops.

Spin it some more bacle.
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As I said, it can be both, and I didn't expect UA to openly talk about the second aspect.

But then again, you've been disingenuous about everything regarding Ukraine ever since Tucker Carlson started lying about the war.
 
Bacle said:
12k Russian sympathizers and agents trying to escape isn't something that points to Ukrainians on the whole not supporting the defense and survival of their nation.

No, you are trying to twist the situation, play up a tiny amount of Russian sympathizers as a huge part of the UA population being against the war, and ignore the larger context, because you got your head up your ass and think predicting Trump and Biden mean you are suddenly an expert on military matters of foreign nations.

As I said, it can be both, and I didn't expect UA to openly talk about the second aspect.

But then again, you've been disingenuous about everything regarding Ukraine ever since Tucker Carlson started lying about the war.
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You're just making shit up dude.

Maybe they just didn't want to fight.

Btw, I've maintained that this fight is Europe's business, not the US's from the very beginning of the conflict. Feel free to go search my posting history.
 
Rocinante said:
You're just making shit up dude.

Maybe they just didn't want to fight.
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No, I am talking about aspects of closing the border and the draft that Tucker Carlson and the Tard-Right will never admit or talk about.

And guess what, any military aged Ukrainian male who doesn't want to fight should be considered a Russian sympathizer or agent.

This is a war for national survival for Ukraine; if someone isn't willing to fight against the Russians, they are helping the Russians.
 
Bacle said:
No, I am talking about aspects of closing the border and the draft that Tucker Carlson and the Tard-Right will never admit or talk about.

And guess what, any military aged Ukrainian male who doesn't want to fight should be considered a Russian sympathizer or agent.

This is a war for national survival for Ukraine; if someone isn't willing to fight against the Russians, they are helping the Russians.
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If there are Russian sympathizers, it goes against your previous stance that Ukraine is all for this war.

There being Russian sympathizers means it isn't.

"The only people I've seen saying Ukrainian's don't support the fight are people like you, not anyone actually on the ground in Ukraine or who has returned after being a foreign volunteer in Ukraine."

I just showed you 12,000 people who disagree with you.
 
Rocinante said:
If there are Russian sympathizers, it goes against your previous stance that Ukraine is all for this war.

There being Russian sympathizers means it isn't.
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I never said there were not Russian sympathizer in Ukraine; I said that Ukrainian on the whole are for fighting against the invasion.

A few thousand Russian agents or sympathizers does not change the larger picture and context.

But this isn't about the larger picture or context, it's about you trying to push a narrative to get the US to cut support, because your pea-brain still thinks a certain amount of aid is 'enough' and are more upset about the US spending money to help Ukraine than angry at Russian for this invasion.
 
Marduk said:
Your point being?
There were even some Jews sympathizing with the Third Reich, one who did it favors in fact is very infamous now in our circles.
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My point is the very fucking clear point that I have been making, but we already established that you're too dense to understand basic concepts, so I'll spell it out again for you:

The fact that they had to ban men from leaving the country is an indication that not all the soldiers in that war are for the war, and the fact that they've caught 12,000 of them trying to flee is another indicator of that.
 
Rocinante said:
My point is the very fucking clear point that I have been making, but we already established that you're too dense to understand basic concepts, so I'll spell it out again for you:

The fact that they had to ban men from leaving the country is an indication that not all the soldiers in that war are for the war, and the fact that they've caught 12,000 of them trying to flee is another indicator of that.
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So? There is not a single war in history of mankind, no matter how righteous and justified, where 100.000% of citizens of the country agreed on defending the country, there's always some fucktard or coward to be found.
It proves nothing, not a point.
You have established an impossible and unreasonable standard, i see no reason why anyone should strive to meet it, we should laugh at your standard being unreasonable instead.
FYI, 12k in a country of well over 30 million is not an impressive case of people voting with their feet at all.
Even if they caught only 1 in 10, we're still talking about a fringe.
 
Bacle said:
I never said there were not Russian sympathizer in Ukraine; I said that Ukrainian on the whole are for fighting against the invasion.

A few thousand Russian agents or sympathizers does not change the larger picture and context.

But this isn't about the larger picture or context, it's about you trying to push a narrative to get the US to cut support, because your pea-brain still thinks a certain amount of aid is 'enough' and are more upset about the US spending money to help Ukraine than angry at Russian for this invasion.
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I want to see the war end. That's it.

If that means Ukraine gives up a little land, so they can take what's left and join nato? That's fine with me.

You'd rather continue YET ANOTHER forever war that the US spends countless dollars on, and countless lives get lost to.

I want it to end, and I don't give two flying fucks if Russia gets a little land out of it, because they're not going to attack a NATO country, and they're not going to accept a total loss when they can continue the stalemate indefinitely.
 
Marduk said:
So? There is not a single war in history of mankind, no matter how righteous and justified, where 100.000% of citizens of the country agreed on defending the country, there's always some fucktard or coward to be found.
It proves nothing, not a point.
You have established an impossible and unreasonable standard, i see no reason why anyone should strive to meet it, we should laugh at your standard being unreasonable instead.
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If Ukraine was so for this war, they wouldn't have to ban the men from leaving.
 
Rocinante said:
If Ukraine was so for this war, they wouldn't have to ban the men from leaving.
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They wouldn't have to be introducing legal penalties for those that left either, if the number was that small.

Here's a good litmus test on this, do you know how large the Ukrainian military was before the war? On paper, 1.3 million. How many troops were under arms in December, according to Zaluzhny? About 700,000. So either they have 500,000+ casualties, or a fair number of guys fucked off to other countries.
 
Rocinante said:
If Ukraine was so for this war, they wouldn't have to ban the men from leaving.
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Where were you crying for poor Russian slaves who are even more restricted now than just leaving the country?
Can you link to your equivalent posts regarding the plight of Russian men under conscription?
Can you use your defeatism and demoralization spreading hobby for better purpose and direct it at the aggressor side?
 
Rocinante said:
I want to see the war end. That's it.
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Then support Ukraine so it can end it faster.
Rocinante said:
If that means Ukraine gives up a little land, so they can take what's left and join nato? That's fine with me.
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Not fine with the people in Ukraine, and no one sane trusts Russia to actually hold to any agreement, rather than use it as time to rearms and try again for more.

Ukraine is just the first step, Russians have already said this; they want the Baltics back and chunks of the Balkans so they can control the Bess-arabian gap between the Carpathians and the Black Sea.
Rocinante said:
You'd rather continue YET ANOTHER forever war that the US spends countless dollars on, and countless lives get lost to.
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It is not a fucking forever war, and this is not A-stan or Iraq; as well, this is a war of defense and national survival, not a glorified punitive expedition disguised as 'nation-building'.

Ukraine has defined objectives to reach for their desired victory, a functional and cohesive government instead of just tribal politics in a veil of democracy, a functional industrial base, resources besides oil to use, and a spirit of national unity that was never present in A-stan or Iraq before even before the US invasions.

That you think this comparable at all to A-stan or Iraq just shows how out of touch with the reality of the conflict you are.
Rocinante said:
I want it to end, and I don't give two flying fucks if Russia gets a little land out of it, because they're not going to attack a NATO country, and they're not going to accept a total loss when they can continue the stalemate indefinitely.
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Except Russia has very much talked about how Ukraine was just step one, and other nations including ones in NATO are next.

You don't believe the Russians when they say they will hit NATO, yet you do believe they'll hold to any deal made, and not try again in 4-8 years after the Russians have rearmed and trained up fresh troops.

Do you not see the double-think in that?
 
Bacle said:
It's working, and it is conserving UA lives and equipment.
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Is that why they're switching to infantry based attacks because of a lack of heavy equipment? Also, can you explain what happens to exposed infantry with cluster munitions usage now normalized?



Bacle said:
And as I said, that Russian manpower and supplies only count when it's able to reach the front, which is why UA has been focusing on the logistics network to make breakthroughs easier in the future.
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Which is a very strange argument to make when even ISW concedes the Russians are conducting division level rotations without issue, eh?

 
Marduk said:
Where were you crying for poor Russian slaves who are even more restricted now than just leaving the country?
Can you link to your equivalent posts regarding the plight of Russian men under conscription?
Can you use your defeatism and demoralization spreading hobby for better purpose and direct it at the aggressor side?
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Find me supporting Russia.

Go ahead. Find it. I'll eat crow if you can find me saying that Russia isn't wrong or was justified in any way.

I've maintained from the beginning that Russia was wrong to do this.

What I'm against is the US being involved.

Period. You people keep bringing up how Europe keeps saying they'll back Ukraine.

Okay. They can do that. No more from the US.

If that means Russia gets some strips of land in Ukraine? I don't care.

But I would like to see the war end. And the US not propping it up anymore is a good way to get there.

And I'm okay with Ukraine joining NATO afterwards.
 
Rocinante said:
Find me supporting Russia.

Go ahead. Find it. I'll eat crow if you can find me saying that Russia isn't wrong or was justified in any way.
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That's not what i said or asked.
Rocinante said:
I've maintained from the beginning that Russia was wrong to do this.
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As above.
Rocinante said:
What I'm against is the US being involved.
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So isolationism (which i personally have an extremely low intellectual and moral opinion of) then. At most benevolent interpretation.
Rocinante said:
If that means Russia gets some strips of land in Ukraine? I don't care.

But I would like to see the war end. And the US not propping it up anymore is a good way to get there.
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So do you care or not in the end? Skip the slogans, gimme a straight answer. Someone who doesn't care wouldn't give a shit whether it ends or continues for 20 years.
Rocinante said:
And I'm okay with Ukraine joining NATO afterwards.
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Great, asking for mutually exclusive sets of events. Without some form of US propping it up anymore, Ukraine will be prevented from joining NATO afterwards, one way or another.
 
Rocinante said:
Find me supporting Russia.

Go ahead. Find it. I'll eat crow if you can find me saying that Russia isn't wrong or was justified in any way.

I've maintained from the beginning that Russia was wrong to do this.

What I'm against is the US being involved.

Period. You people keep bringing up how Europe keeps saying they'll back Ukraine.

Okay. They can do that. No more from the US.

If that means Russia gets some strips of land in Ukraine? I don't care.

But I would like to see the war end. And the US not propping it up anymore is a good way to get there.

And I'm okay with Ukraine joining NATO afterwards.
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If you do not support Ukraine and continuing to aid them, you support Russia's actions against it and Russian goals in Ukraine.

There is no third option, even if you think the political isolationist stance is 'not supporting Russia'.
 
Bacle said:
Then support Ukraine so it can end it faster.
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They aren't going to win. They're going to give up some land eventually.

Not fine with the people in Ukraine, and no one sane trusts Russia to actually hold to any agreement, rather than use it as time to rearms and try again for more.
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Russia is not going to attack a nato country unless they're absolutely desperate. They aren't going to re-arm and attack if Ukraine joins NATO.
Ukraine is just the first step, Russians have already said this; they want the Baltics back and chunks of the Balkans so they can control the Bess-arabian gap between the Carpathians and the Black Sea.
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I'm not supposed to listen to Russian propaganda, remember?

Or do we only listen to it when it fits your narrative?

It is not a fucking forever war, and this is not A-stan or Iraq; as well, this is a war of defense and national survival, not a glorified punitive expedition disguised as 'nation-building'.
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it absolutely is, because it's a total stalemate that Russia can continue indefinitely.

That you think this comparable at all to A-stan or Iraq just shows how out of touch with the reality of the conflict you are.
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the similarity starts and ends at "forever war."
Except Russia has very much talked about how Ukraine was just step one, and other nations including ones in NATO are next.

You don't believe the Russians when they say they will hit NATO, yet you do believe they'll hold to any deal made, and not try again in 4-8 years after the Russians have rearmed and trained up fresh troops.

Do you not see the double-think in that?
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Russian propaganda.
 
Bacle said:
If you do not support Ukraine and continuing to aid them, you support Russia's actions against it and Russian goals in Ukraine.

There is no third option, even if you think the political isolationist stance is 'not supporting Russia'.
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"If you're not with us you're against us"
Holy shit you've done gone and went full blown George Bush neocon, you're a fucking clown, bacle.
 
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