Morphic Tide
Well-known member
Switch "gun grabbers" for "communists" and "guns" for "corporations".
Trump Investigations Thread
- Thread starter Rocinante
- Start date
Now we actually have an analogy that works. But now we have another fallacy: X made a bad argument, thus your similar argument for different things is bad. It doesn't work.
Given that government is inherently based on force, and companies are based on consent, I'd say there's still a difference. As I've said before, a government can at best hope to be a necessary evil. And there's a long history of governments trying to do X but causing the opposite, and also a long history of governments becoming authoritarian by grabbing more power.
Its not surprising that people given unaccountability and the power to investigate people might investigate the people who threaten their unaccountability. That's what the FBI did: it didn't like being criticized, and enough members were radical crazies that could go crying to the press about it.
Every government institution will be used by those in charge of the government against those they don't like. Because government is about power.
Complaining about the government does help spur actions; it's just that realistic actions does not include 'crippling the government'.
I mean viewing the government as The One Ring is part of why your ideas are disconnected from non-AnCap reality.
Abolishing the FBI would be a decent first step (shifting their kidnapping/human trafficking work to the US Marshals and counter-intel work to the DIA to retain capability without the same corruption).
However, given what they are doing to Trump, where they want him to die in prison, doing the same to Biden regardless of the outcome of 2024 is a must, otherwise the Dems will feel emboldened as the GOP once again 'turns the other cheek'.
Nuremberg 2.0 for Fauci and co. is needed; what they did hurt more than just the US populace.
No, it just means more political games that go nowhere in Congress, and more shams like the Trump Impeachments but now with even more options for 'punishment'.
Never going to happen, the intel groups will always have backdoors into social media; that cat is not going back into the bag.
Yes. Because letting the government grow with a million different laws that allow it to attack anyone has worked so well.
But I thought you were against crippling the government?
They'll do it anyway. There's no undoing the nuclear option with 'norms'. The only option is radical law change.
Good? I though you'd like being able to prosecute Biden & Fauci right now.
Literally there's a court case right now that will likely win that will stop this.
And 'Crippling' it won't fix a damn thing that is wrong with our government; it'll just mean that some of those laws which protect private citizens against uncaring corporations or careless stupidity (Clean Air and Water Act, OSHA, etc) will no longer have any force, while also removing any of the remaining restraints against pure anarchy in society in general.
Then again, you are an AnCap, and want anarchy.
The FBI is not the whole government, and the US Marshals and DIA have a cleaner rep and less political influence pushing than the FBI, while not stopping the work against human trafficking/kidnapping or counter-intel work that actually semi-justifies the FBI's current existence.
But that sort of nuanced approach doesn't fit with your 'cripple the government because it's the One Ring' rhetoric.
Which is why political MAD must be enforced by the GOP when it gets power again. Anything norm broke to attack Trump must be used against Biden, any attack against Trump supporters must be returned in kind against Biden supporters when the time comes.
Maybe a single exchange of this sort will be enough to deter further fuckery by the Dems for a while, but the GOP need to be ready to exchange political salvo's every few years/any time they get power, if they ever want the Dems to learn not to keep breaking shit because of 'Orange Man/MAGA Bad'.
Yes, via a cleaned up DoJ, or even the Hague for Fauci; not via creating even more avenues for useless stupidity in Congress.
Yeah, and if you think that court case (should it go the way we want) will actually stop the installation of backdoors in software/social media, and stop the gov from using it's influence on social media via backchannels, I got an igloo in the Sahara to sell you.
Vyor
My influence grows!
Patriot Act was NSA, not FBI.
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
Corporations also become based on force the moment they become intergenerational, as now the determinant of who owns the infrastructure for economically useful labor and who's stuck doing it is strictly inheritances that history well proves demands a lot of force to maintain rather than consent of current participants. This necessary use of force is typically outsourced to the government, but has been handled in-house before and will again if you remove the public option.
Similarly, virtually every developed country's government stems from consent as a consequence of representative premises, but due to the demands of nominally-neutral arbitration of disputes and corruption they've all become dominantly force-based. Without a formal government, the next largest system of power concentration and/or dispute resolution will immediately become force-based in practice as a strict necessity of maintaining economic cohesion in the face of bad actors.
It is vastly more practical to restrict the powers of a formal government than to construct a distributed legal system capable of enforcing preventative regulations or particularly useful standards for contract enforcement. We are a very long way into such regulations being essential, because a single case of leaking toxic waste can fuck over hundreds of square miles for decades and a single product can need dozens of corporations or regions thousands of miles apart to be made.
Edit: The single most critical failing in Anarcho-Capitalist reasoning is the assumption that violent overthrow is an abnormal response to broadly terrible conditions. People aren't going to wait for a market correction when the latest undercut-by-ignoring-safety business causes everyone living riverside for a hundred miles to fall chronically ill, the mobs will form and the demand for the most basic of safeties will see the reformation of a government to enforce preventative standards.
Last edited:
Section 215, for just one reason you are wrong here.
Yes, because I said destroy the government where exactly? I'm pretty sure I said cripple, which sorta implies not destroying it, just limiting it excessively. You'll note I said I was dubious about anarchism working in this thread, but that's not convenient for you to mention, so you decided to sail at a strawman that I wanted all government gone.
Getting rid of the FBI does cripple the DOJ, and thus the government. Thinking otherwise is dumb.
Lol! Limited exchange! You don't understand MAD, buddy.
If you don't think that the courts can stop government, why are you advocating for prosecutions of government figures (those happen in a court btw)?
Not a use of force. The person who died consensually willed the company to the inheritor. It's no different than a sale: the transfer of ownership of the company decided unilaterally by the owner and recipient.
Second, they both use the other option, but are not based on that option. The vast majority of things done in a corporation are done consensually. The vast majority of interactions with government are non-consensual. Hence the use of the word 'based'.
And that's enough to dispose of the argument made.
Look, quite simply, the ideas listed on the thread of what the R's should do if they take power are: "do what the Dems did, but better!" This is lunacy. The R's are incapable of doing what the Dems do better than the Dems, as the Dems want power and are good at wielding it. They will do it better than you. You want to fight a losing war. And make no mistake, they will not accept a retaliation with out retaliating back harder. They are petty, whiny people that love to be attacked, as attacking them makes them strong. You've got to Judo them instead.
Meanwhile, I've pointed out a few ways that you could actually win by crippling their institutions. Apparently this is somehow ceding to the Dems? I don't get it.
It's similar to the tactics used by the non-violent protestors for the civil rights movement. They knew playing the game the police wanted (violence vs violence) was a losing battle. So they Judo'd them: they got all dressed up in their Sunday best, and made sure the cameras were rolling when they got firehosed. And through this they won. It was a very deliberate strategy of using the cops strength against them.
So don't play the Dem's game, play what was once the R's game: restrict government. Every time it overreaches, cut off that limb that overreached. The whole limb, not just the finger (e.g. abolish the FBI, don't just fire a few agents). Government will quickly learn to behave afterwards.
That's already happening, the GOP is just cowardly and weak so they aren't biting back.
Watch when he gets in office, not only will we get a war but only 9 million illegals this year and only a small fortune to Israel. I watched the media and nearly every single institution in America attack the man for the past 8 years. I know when i'm watching a fight to the death or WCW(utter fabricated nonsense)
No, this is one of the most absolutely fucking retarded Q-anon style takes I've ever seen. Explain the logic here. What's Trump got to gain by this? Why would he have a deal?Watch when he gets in office, not only will we get a war but only 9 million illegals this year and only a small fortune to Israel. I watched the media and nearly every single institution in America attack the man for the past 8 years. I know when i'm watching a fight to the death or WCW(utter fabricated nonsense)
Oh idk maybe he's been in charge all along. Next month they're going to remove Biden and reveal Trump has been president secretly the whole time!
Yeah. Retarded. There's no logic or reason behind your theory. They're trying to destroy the man and prevent him from running.
bintananth
behind a desk
Bzzt! Wrong!
They are trying to punish him for committing a large number of very serious crimes.
That he is a former president with a substantial number of defenders who will never believe that any guilty verdict is accurate - regardless of how volumous the piles of supporting evidence are - makes this difficult. That he also has detractors who'll believe that any not guilty verdict was the result of a jury ignoring said evidence complicates things further.
We are in the midst of a no-win slow-motion shitshow with 24/7 news coverage.
The conspiracy against rights charge he is facing? The DoJ ain't joking around when that's on the list of charges because, in certain circumstances, the death penalty is a possible sentence.
You're right, I was wrong.
The left establishment does want him running in the Primaries.
And they're using these indictments recently to distract people from Biden's corruption.
The timing just happens to be right around when news about Biden comes out lol
Megadeath
Well-known member
Funnily enough, the timing also lines up pretty well with what was predicted long ahead of time, and also with the norms expected for the investigation. Also, I don't think any possible outcome would actually stop him from running so if this is a grand plan to stop him it's a pretty poor one. Further, given how divisive trump is, even among GOP supporters, there's probably a decent sized subset of "the left establishment" that do want him running. Finally, lol at the idea that some sorta monolithic and organised "left establishment" even exists, let alone is capable of stage managing and controlling events and the DoJ as you seem to believe.
It's a plan to ensure he's toxic enough to lose, but also keep him propped up enough by his base to win the Primaries.
Same strategy as 2016. Get him through Primaries, lose generals.
They did this plan all around the country with Maga candidates that they funded in 2022, and it worked. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/12/democrats-interfere-republican-primaries/
And yes a monolithic dem structure does exist, but its a loose structure of many independent organizations with their own, similar goals. They have control over the media, social media, the schools and the vast majority of corporate culture. They don't need to get together in dark rooms to plot - they simply need to follow the same general pathways, and it works as a monolithic structure. Look no further than the covid censorship of 2021 to see how that works.
Look at how Time Magazins couldn't help but to brag about it: The Secret History of the Shadow Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election
Look at how social media hid the Hunter Biden story right before the election. Look how the media thay did cover it said it was just Russian disinformation, and look at how 40+ intelligence officials who knew they were lying, signed a letter claiming it was Russian disinformation.
Twitter blocked it all together:
GOPers, Trump rip Twitter after handing of Post’s Hunter Biden laptop story is exposed
“We’re learning in real-time how Twitter colluded to silence the truth about Hunter Biden’s laptop just days before the 2020 presidential election,” tweeted Rep. Kevin McCar…
nypost.com
Zuckerberg admitted to throttling it:
Mark Zuckerberg says he regrets Facebook throttling Hunter Biden laptop story
Meta CEO Mark Zuckerberg expressed regret for Facebook’s throttling of the Hunter Biden laptop story in the days leading up to the 2020 election but conditioned that “the process was pretty reasonable.” Looming over Facebook’s decision to limit the story’s spread was a warning the FBI gave the...
www.washingtonexaminer.com
And recently we had the Facebook Files 2.0. Which exposed that the Biden admin was negotiating with FB to supress right wing news and amplify left wing propaganda:
Facebook Files Part 2 shows Biden White House asking Facebook to change algorithm to favor New York Times over The Daily Wire 👀
This is absolutely criminal the way the White House has been meddling in public information and trying to control the public narrative by manipulating what YOU see on Facebook.
notthebee.com
Essentially, a bunch of people with their own interests, and a similar way to get there, influence society with censorship, propaganda and legal action. As the evidence has demonstrated, a great deal of this was orchestrated by the Biden administration and/or the intelligence community.
Its been going on for years and there are mountains of evidence.
Taking unprecedented steps to arrest the sitting president's main political rival, while the president himself is plenty corrupt, is all just a part of that.
I'm not even saying Trump is innocent. I'm saying all presidents have committed crimes, but they never go after the other ones. It's a plot against Trump. If it wasn't, we would see lots of other ex presidents in trouble. We don't, because our law enforcement, particularly on the federal level, has become politicized and is batting for the left.
Last edited:
Megadeath
Well-known member
"And yes a monolithic dem structure does exist, but its a loose structure of many independent organizations with their own, similar goals." That's, by definition, not a monolithic structure. That's just the large majority of society being in general agreement with each other, and opposed to what you think/believe.It's a plan to ensure he's toxic enough to lose, but also keep him propped up enough by his base to win the Primaries.
Same strategy as 2016. Get him through Primaries, lose generals.
They did this plan all around the country with Maga candidates that they funded in 2022, and it worked. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/09/12/democrats-interfere-republican-primaries/
And yes a monolithic dem structure does exist, but its a loose structure of many independent organizations with their own, similar goals. They have control over the media, social media, the schools and the vast majority of corporate culture. They don't need to get together in dark rooms to plot - they simply need to follow the same general pathways, and it works as a monolithic structure. Look no further than the covid censorship of 2021 to see how that works.
Look at how Time Magazins couldn't help but to brag about it: The Secret History of the Shadow Campaign That Saved the 2020 Election
Look at how social media hid the Hunter Biden story right before the election. Look how the media thay did cover it said it was just Russian disinformation, and look at how 40+ intelligence officials who knew they were lying, signed a letter claiming it was Russian disinformation.
And recently we had the Facebook Files 2.0. Which exposed that the Biden admin was negotiating with FB to supress right wing news and amplify left wing propaganda:
Facebook Files Part 2 shows Biden White House asking Facebook to change algorithm to favor New York Times over The Daily Wire 👀
This is absolutely criminal the way the White House has been meddling in public information and trying to control the public narrative by manipulating what YOU see on Facebook.
Essentially, a bunch of people with their own interests, and a similar way to get there, influence society with censorship, propaganda and legal action.
Its been going on for years and there are mountains of evidence.
Taking unprecedented steps to arrest the sitting president's main political rival, while the president himself is plenty corrupt, is all just a part of that.
I'm not even saying Trump is innocent. I'm saying all presidents have committed crimes, but they never go after the other ones. It's a plot against Trump. If it wasn't, we would see lots of other ex presidents in trouble. We don't, because our law enforcement, particularly on the federal level, has become politicized and is batting for the left.
The reason that trump is facing legal trouble, and other presidents haven't, is because his crimes are so much more serious and blatant. Yeah there's generally some level of wrongdoing, but we haven't seen anything like trump since Nixon. And the only reason he didn't face charges was a pardon. Honestly, I will be extremely surprised if Biden doesn't pardon trump too. Difference being, he kinda has to wait for a guilty verdict or trump just spins it as "They knew they couldn't win."
I just gave you links proving tje monolithic structure exists.
And yes a bunch of people with the same interests working together toward a common goal, does count as a structure. They don't need to gather In dark smokey rooms and plot. I've just demonstrated to you how they do it.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Tell me you're too young to remember the Clinton Presidency without telling me you're too young to remember the Clinton Presidency.
Tell me you bought the propaganda about the Obama administration being 'scandal free' without telling me you bought it.
Megadeath
Well-known member
Yes, it could be considered a structure, though I'd even consider that debatable since "structure" implies organisation and a degree of control, rather than merely a group moving in the same direction by consensus. It sure as hell doesn't count as monlithic though, unless you're using some definition I've never seen. Monolithic literally means that it's one, single and united thing. That's the opposite of many disparate elements, regardless of whether those elements often have some or many overlapping goals.
Perhaps we could try dealing in specifics, rather than vague allusion if that's not too hard for you? I'll get you started; Clinton got a blow job and lied about it, and Obama occasionally blew up innocent people in targeted attacks. Neither of those is as bad as the degree of mishandling of state secrets, and the attempts to obfuscate and further them that trump engaged in. Neither of those is as bad as attempts to fundamentally undermine the basis of American democracy that trump has engaged in. Perhaps you had other specifics in mind though?