Our knowledge of Carthage (or Pheonicia) is limited, hence not sexy
Unlike their women lol!
'AHC: Have the US still eventually fight in Korea and/or Vietnam without the 1940 Fall of France and Pearl Harbor'
Alternate History Ideas and Discussion
- Thread starter AndrewJTalon
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Unlike their women lol!
'AHC: Have the US still eventually fight in Korea and/or Vietnam without the 1940 Fall of France and Pearl Harbor'
Skallagrim
Well-known member
I'd argue that they had a lot of the same problems, but also some different ones.
Greeks had the best theoretical scientific understanding, but had considerable hang-ups about intellectual pursuits being noble, and down-to-earth practical stuff being for the underclass. So you see Greeks making very fancy demonstration pieces (like Heron's steam engine, which existed only to prove a principle, not to do anything practical) and used intricate tech for suitably "elite" but fairly impractical purposes (like the Antikythera mechanism, which was a convoluted astronomical tool... now thought to be meant for religious purposes, not for something practical like navigation).
Romans were way more practically inclined (see their far more practical engineering works, and the fact that their architectural achievements showed much greater complexity than those of the Greeks). But their theoretical nderstanding was limited. Roman commentaries on Greek texts on mathematics show that the Roman commentators (whom we may assume to be among the most educated Romans) just didn't get the math.
Where does Carthage fall on that? They strike me as more practically-minded, but we don't know enough to be sure about their intellectual attitudes. What we do know is one way in which they differ from both the Greeks and Romans: they were famous for being highly accomplished merchants. Their mentality reflects this. They looked at the bottom line, and they were often demonstrably averse to risky long-term investments with no demonstrable commercial justification. (Hannibal repeatefly asked for more support, but the Carthaginian leadership was too worried about throwing money down the hole, so they refused to give him more backing. He lost, and Carthage was doomed.)
This leads me to suspect that Carthage would have major issues when it comes to investing in uncertain prospects. The merchant mentality is, after all, not the same as that of the venture capitalist. (Nor is it the same as that of the philosopher-aristocrat or the citizen-soldier.)
Queen Dido: "Now you shall find out just how hot I am!"Unlike their women lol!
*Steps onto funeral pyre*
Queen Dido: "Now you shall find out just how hot I am!"
*Steps onto funeral pyre*
"And then I saw her get resurrected afterwards!" lol
A naked, revived, angel former Queen Dido.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
I'd argue that they had a lot of the same problems, but also some different ones.
Greeks had the best theoretical scientific understanding, but had considerable hang-ups about intellectual pursuits being noble, and down-to-earth practical stuff being for the underclass. So you see Greeks making very fancy demonstration pieces (like Heron's steam engine, which existed only to prove a principle, not to do anything practical) and used intricate tech for suitably "elite" but fairly impractical purposes (like the Antikythera mechanism, which was a convoluted astronomical tool... now thought to be meant for religious purposes, not for something practical like navigation).
Romans were way more practically inclined (see their far more practical engineering works, and the fact that their architectural achievements showed much greater complexity than those of the Greeks). But their theoretical nderstanding was limited. Roman commentaries on Greek texts on mathematics show that the Roman commentators (whom we may assume to be among the most educated Romans) just didn't get the math.
Where does Carthage fall on that? They strike me as more practically-minded, but we don't know enough to be sure about their intellectual attitudes. What we do know is one way in which they differ from both the Greeks and Romans: they were famous for being highly accomplished merchants. Their mentality reflects this. They looked at the bottom line, and they were often demonstrably averse to risky long-term investments with no demonstrable commercial justification. (Hannibal repeatefly asked for more support, but the Carthaginian leadership was too worried about throwing money down the hole, so they refused to give him more backing. He lost, and Carthage was doomed.)
This leads me to suspect that Carthage would have major issues when it comes to investing in uncertain prospects. The merchant mentality is, after all, not the same as that of the venture capitalist. (Nor is it the same as that of the philosopher-aristocrat or the citizen-soldier.)
Queen Dido: "Now you shall find out just how hot I am!"
*Steps onto funeral pyre*
Hmm...
In that case, I don't suppose we could up the ante on ASB magic to make the Punic approach a bit more venture capitalist-like and more predisposed to long-term investments? I'm already assuming that they "leap-frog" ahead technologically (and far faster than their Greco-Roman rivals, at that!), despite how tall an order that'd be if we made due with non-supernatural means instead. But, given how ASB's already decided on the Industrial Revolution happening a couple millennia ahead of schedule, I think a few "tweaks" to the Punic mindset on the side that leaves their mercantile instincts mostly intact aren't that much to ask for.
(Incidentally, I also had some "Chad Britain Vs. Virgin Carthage" memes in mind when devising this scenario, too, though I'll have to get good at the whole "crudely drawn 4chan art" thing first.
Still, considering how the Anglos at their prime conducted trade and commerce on a scale that'd have Hannibal's jaw hit the floor, it stands to reason that Carthaginians watching from the afterlife would greatly envy Britain's empire-building and commercial success.)
Skallagrim
Well-known member
A mentality -- especially a prevailing attitude that is predominant in any populace, and most especially one that is so in the long term -- is not something we can easily just, uh, install in their minds.Hmm...
In that case, I don't suppose we could up the ante on ASB magic to make the Punic approach a bit more venture capitalist-like and more predisposed to long-term investments? I'm already assuming that they "leap-frog" ahead technologically (and far faster than their Greco-Roman rivals, at that!), despite how tall an order that'd be if we made due with non-supernatural means instead. But, given how ASB's already decided on the Industrial Revolution happening a couple millennia ahead of schedule, I think a few "tweaks" to the Punic mindset on the side that leaves their mercantile instincts mostly intact aren't that much to ask for.
(Incidentally, I also had some "Chad Britain Vs. Virgin Carthage" memes in mind when devising this scenario, too, though I'll have to get good at the whole "crudely drawn 4chan art" thing first.
Consider the following: the mercantile approach was certainly predominant in the Levantine Semetic cultural complex. The Phoenicians were the big boys back in the day. But when we look at their approach to economic warfare with Rome, this actually bites them in the ass. The government-backed quasi-public trade combine was a thoroughly Roman thing, in part because Romans just didn't fucking understand the concept of capitalism as we'd know it. To them, the distinction between public sector and private sector would just be weird. But a Carthaginian would understand it immediately! (Even though they didn't think in terms of "capitalism", either, they did think in very mercantile terms.)
The issue being: Carthage didn't adequately respond to the Roman way of doing things, because they just didn't get that way of thinking. (In the same way, even if assuming tech parity, Rome would get creamed by the 19th century British Empire, because the Brits would destroy them economically -- and the Romans wouldn't even understand where they'd gone wrong!)
This means that Carthage isn't just magically going to figure these things out, and having it happen by ASB fiat just makes them "aliens in a Carthaginian skin-suit". Which renders the point moot. You might as well imagine extradimensional hypercapitalists being ISOTed into the ancient Med region.
...Interestingly, the traits you're looking for were ultimately developed by descendants of the Levantine Semitic lineage. The Jews. Their diaspora put them all over, including Christian Europe, where they were relegated (often by social restrictions) to economic niches that encouraged an... expansion of the money-thinking; an evolution of the merchant-mindset into something more complex. Combined with periodic persecutions (which is inherently a process that selects for intelligence, because morons get killed), this resulted in a population that was A) specialised in proto-capitalist financial structures and B) rigidly selected for high intelligence.
Result: a disproportionate number of individuals from the group in question rise to the top in a capitalist society, and a similar disproprtionate number excels in all sorts of scientific fields. (Interestingly, this means the "Jewish merchant" meme is actually wrong. The "Jewish banker" one has more merit. Funnily enough, you rarely see the "Jewish Nobel prize winner" meme, even though it's very much rooted in truth. Wonder why...)
I dare say there's going to be a lot less chinese, and a lot more war in the land formely known as China.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Well, that goes without saying.
Of course, I'm not sure Chairman
Buba
A total creep
Mao is surrounded by monsters, naturally (as all communist revolutionaries are), yet not as monstruous as the Cambodian bunch. Whereas Pol Pot was surrounded by like monsters from the beginning. Hence after displaying symptoms of Personality Change and Very Crazy Ideas Mao gets offed.
He managed not to commit suicide by Politbiuro for the Great Leap Forward, but that is 15 years into the future. And the GLP was not that psychopatic.
He managed not to commit suicide by Politbiuro for the Great Leap Forward, but that is 15 years into the future. And the GLP was not that psychopatic.
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Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
In that case, offing Mao means nothing of value was lost.
Unfortunately, there's also his evil clique to worry about (as you point out), so either way, I guess China remains a commie madhouse run by people who are about where Stalin lies on the good-to-evil spectrum, which means the PRC's early history will still be shit to live through.
I agree with @Buba and @Zyobot here that Mao most likely gets offed sooner or later. If anything, we could see some Chinese factions invite the Soviet Union to militarily intervene and overthrow Mao in order to replace him with someone much saner and thus restore at least a semblance of relative normalcy to China. This would be similar to how Vietnam cooperated with former Khmer Rouge members who have subsequently fled into exile in Vietnam to overthrow the Khmer Rouge in 1979. In such a scenario, the Soviet Union could find a Chinese Communist whom it will like and who will have at least some support within China (or who could quickly build such support) and install them as China's new leader after Mao is offed.
Interestingly enough, in the meantime, I could actually see a sizable number of Chinese trying to flee to Russia and Southeast Asia in order to escape Chairman Mao's mass murder. Mao might actually allow them to leave if he views it as being beneficial to have less subversives within China; so, less effort for him in finding/tracking down and subsequently hunting down and murdering these subversives.
'Mullah Omar (2013) to Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi (2014)'
Eparkhos
Well-known member
I've been doing some reading recently for an 'East is West' scenario, and here's what I came up with.
450s - Huns/Hunno-Goths overrun/settle must of Europe -- see my post from earlier this month.
The Hunno-Goths remain a blocking presence at the eastern end of the Eurasian steppe, limiting westward migration, so the Utigurs &co remain further east and so on, the important part being that the eastern part of the Gokturks remains more settled. The Six Dynasties period draws to a close as IOTL, and just like IOTL Wen of Sui pits the sons of one of the khagans off of each other to try and break up the Gokturks. This blows up in his face, as the Gokturks are less dispersed and so the civil war is over sooner and the horde survives intact, one of the khagans unifying it and then turning on Wen to legitimize himself/prove he's not a puppet. Goguryeo then jumps in to kick the Sui while they're down, Sui raises more taxes/levies/conscripts to fend them off, fails, and then collapses in a series of popular revolts similar to OTL but 30 years earlier (c.585).
With Sui distracted fighting the Turks/Koreans, Southern Chen limps along until their northern rivals collapse. With much of the north gone over to peasant rebels and warlords, Chen creeps northwar, gradually absorbing the north over two decades of fighting. This brings them into conflict with the Turks and Koreans; Chen's armies sucked IOTL, and with the central state struggling to tax much of the empire the logical response is to create military feudatories to exert control/fend off the barbarians. These feudatories quickly expand their power at the expense of the central state, and by the mid-7th century Chen goes down in flames (probably after an overly ambitious emperor tries to move the capital north to exert power there, only to be cut off from his support base by northern rebels).
This leaves an interesting state of affairs. Similar to the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms of OTL, the Northern Plains (the most populous/productive region) is a thunderdome of warlords that quickly mediatizes into a revolving door of dynasties as the Turks, Koreans and local warlords play kingmaker. I'll refer to these states as Chang'an, as this is the traditional capital and likely seat of power for many. The important part is that the Chang'an/Northern state, which IOTL was the powerbase of most reunifying dynasties, remains too turmoiled/wartorn to reconquer the south. The South, meanwhile, is ruled by a bunch of different minor states/kingdoms/tribal entities, which are too weak to reunify the region/would get dogpiled if they did and are in the grip of near-constant, but limited conflict.
The southern regions were OTL the chief centers of trade and production during this period. With constant wars burning through money, the Southern states have a strong incentive to build up production and export as much as they can, and eventually to establish trading and political ties with outside states to strengthen themselves/maximize state profits. OTL, periods of 'benign neglect' were the only time China underwent periods of economic inovation and development, and the atmosphere of the South is very much 'succeed or die'. With no overbearing state to crack down on change for the hell of it, South China undergoes a technological and economic boom a la the 5Dynasties/10Kingdoms or Former Song from around 800 or so. The implications of this are immense in and of itself, and I think that it might very well lead to the development of maritime traditions and proto-industrial economy...
TLDR; The Turks/Koreans kill the Sui Dynasty, another weak dynasty takes over and explodes, North China is dominated by barbarians/civil war, South China is dominated by petty trading states that compete hard and produces a climate of technological and economic innovation that leads to an Industrial Revolution c.1000ish.
450s - Huns/Hunno-Goths overrun/settle must of Europe -- see my post from earlier this month.
The Hunno-Goths remain a blocking presence at the eastern end of the Eurasian steppe, limiting westward migration, so the Utigurs &co remain further east and so on, the important part being that the eastern part of the Gokturks remains more settled. The Six Dynasties period draws to a close as IOTL, and just like IOTL Wen of Sui pits the sons of one of the khagans off of each other to try and break up the Gokturks. This blows up in his face, as the Gokturks are less dispersed and so the civil war is over sooner and the horde survives intact, one of the khagans unifying it and then turning on Wen to legitimize himself/prove he's not a puppet. Goguryeo then jumps in to kick the Sui while they're down, Sui raises more taxes/levies/conscripts to fend them off, fails, and then collapses in a series of popular revolts similar to OTL but 30 years earlier (c.585).
With Sui distracted fighting the Turks/Koreans, Southern Chen limps along until their northern rivals collapse. With much of the north gone over to peasant rebels and warlords, Chen creeps northwar, gradually absorbing the north over two decades of fighting. This brings them into conflict with the Turks and Koreans; Chen's armies sucked IOTL, and with the central state struggling to tax much of the empire the logical response is to create military feudatories to exert control/fend off the barbarians. These feudatories quickly expand their power at the expense of the central state, and by the mid-7th century Chen goes down in flames (probably after an overly ambitious emperor tries to move the capital north to exert power there, only to be cut off from his support base by northern rebels).
This leaves an interesting state of affairs. Similar to the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms of OTL, the Northern Plains (the most populous/productive region) is a thunderdome of warlords that quickly mediatizes into a revolving door of dynasties as the Turks, Koreans and local warlords play kingmaker. I'll refer to these states as Chang'an, as this is the traditional capital and likely seat of power for many. The important part is that the Chang'an/Northern state, which IOTL was the powerbase of most reunifying dynasties, remains too turmoiled/wartorn to reconquer the south. The South, meanwhile, is ruled by a bunch of different minor states/kingdoms/tribal entities, which are too weak to reunify the region/would get dogpiled if they did and are in the grip of near-constant, but limited conflict.
The southern regions were OTL the chief centers of trade and production during this period. With constant wars burning through money, the Southern states have a strong incentive to build up production and export as much as they can, and eventually to establish trading and political ties with outside states to strengthen themselves/maximize state profits. OTL, periods of 'benign neglect' were the only time China underwent periods of economic inovation and development, and the atmosphere of the South is very much 'succeed or die'. With no overbearing state to crack down on change for the hell of it, South China undergoes a technological and economic boom a la the 5Dynasties/10Kingdoms or Former Song from around 800 or so. The implications of this are immense in and of itself, and I think that it might very well lead to the development of maritime traditions and proto-industrial economy...
TLDR; The Turks/Koreans kill the Sui Dynasty, another weak dynasty takes over and explodes, North China is dominated by barbarians/civil war, South China is dominated by petty trading states that compete hard and produces a climate of technological and economic innovation that leads to an Industrial Revolution c.1000ish.
Eparkhos
Well-known member
Also, it occured to me that these wanked Huns would likely do a great deal of raiding in Iran, both as the one *mostly* unpillaged region in their range and because of a desire to avenge previous defeats. Most of these raids would've been in the Caucasus or Khorasan/North-Central Iran. At this time, the Sassanians were ruling a sort of 'hegemonic' empire, with the state struggling against a strong nobility concentrated on the plateau; I think that desire for protection would cause a reluctant abandonment of independence and subsequently a reformed, centralized/stronger Sassanian Persia. Alternatively, attempts to reform in such a way could alienate the Seven Great Houses and spark a civil war or national collapse, with the Sassanians surviving in Mesopotamia & becoming increasingly dependant on local Aramean-speaking Nestorians until they convert to secure their support, then either persisting as a buffer or reconquering Persia proper. I favor the latter because it seems the most interesting.
With the HGE on the Byzantines' other flank, the ERE seems to be in for a very bad time. Not to mention all the ramifications this has on India...
Thoughts?
With the HGE on the Byzantines' other flank, the ERE seems to be in for a very bad time. Not to mention all the ramifications this has on India...
Thoughts?
Buba
A total creep
I hope Smolniy in Sankt Peterburg and Kremlin in Moscow get nuked.
But on a more serious note - would these be used at all? Would there be a will to use them against civilians? Especially white ones ...
Wilson was Evul! and got his jollies from kicking segregated, black puppies - so he'd nuke Japs or Chinks without a thought.
@Zyobot - I edited my post and it now is three times as long
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Knowing Wilson he'd have used them in a false flag attack on cities that didn't vote for him to get into the war earlier.I hope Smolniy in Sankt Peterburg and Kremlin in Moscow get nuked.
But on a more serious note - would these be used at all? Would there be a will to use them against civilians? Especially white ones ...
Wilson was Evul! and got his jollies from kicking segregated, black puppies - so he'd nuke Japs or Chinks without a thought.
@Zyobot - I edited my post and it now is three times as long
Berlin gets nuked in 1917? Possibly the Ruhr as well?
'AHC: Have another war between two or more countries that all have significantly below-replacement fertility rates similar to the 2022 Russo-Ukrainian War, where both parties involved have a TFR of just 1.5 or less'
I was thinking of a war between Hungary and Romania for Transylvania, but I just don't think that the West would actually be willing to allow this. And even if there's no WWII and the US stays non-interventionist, there's still the Little Entente for Hungary to think about.
I was thinking of a war between Hungary and Romania for Transylvania, but I just don't think that the West would actually be willing to allow this. And even if there's no WWII and the US stays non-interventionist, there's still the Little Entente for Hungary to think about.
As I said elsewhere I'm not sure how willingly the US at the time would be to use such a destructive weapon on a civilian/urban target. A lot of taboos have been broken in this war, largely by the CPs but such an action would be a hell of a leap, especially since Wilson's argument was that the US was coming in to protect civilisation.
They might use it against a military one, but anywhere near the western front is effectively going to be on allied [French or Belgium] territory. One option might be Wilhelmshaven as the base of the High Sea's Fleet, which is a clearly military target, the destruction of which would be a significant blow to the CPs, both militarily and in morale terms.
Buba
A total creep
Militarily not so much to anybody with a brain
But in morale terms - very much indeed. And interesting side effect - it were the underfed and bored and refusing to be used in a suicide attack German matrossen who revolted and brought down the Kaiserreich.
The big revolt was in Kiel, but had the Hochseeflotte been sunk in Wilhelmshaven, there would had been no fleet to sail to Kiel to begin with ...