Alternate History Ideas and Discussion
- Thread starter AndrewJTalon
- Start date
The United Provinces.
Something goes better for the republic, e.g. it gains the southern Netherlands or Koeln Bishopric, retains Brazil or New York, actually colonises the Cape, Australia and/or New Zealand - the list is quite long
During 7th years war would be best occasion - maybe help french invade England?
Skallagrim
Well-known member
Hanseatic League, for starters.
@Buba already mentioned the United Provinces.
The mercantile states of Tamilakam (Southern India) also had enormous potential.
A variety of Indonesian/Malaysian states, too.
Would agree with the comment about an immediate war with Nazi Germany because of the loss of so much land - both to Poland and also because the Sudetenland is now back in Czech hands and there are no Germans there. Expect Adolf to have a serious fit. Then Nazi Germany has its arse handed to it.
What happens to the 1939 eastern Poland territory would be a difficult issue. How with a still conservative but far more democratic Poland treat those territories which are overwhelmingly non-Polish but had a Polish elite in most cases that will be very confused by the new Poland that has emerged? They definitely won't want those lands falling into Stalin's hands.
A lot could depend on the attitude of Britain and France, and probably also the US. How quickly and fully will they accept what the newcomers tell them about what is to come. Both in the short term with details of WWII - which could really screw over Japan
- and in the longer term with nuclear weapons, the loss of empire and rise and fall of the Soviet empire and then of communist China. Also diplomats, tourists, foreign workers etc in those countries are going in most cases to want to aid their down-time homes with information.Going to be a hell of a lot of butterflies.
Steve
I think that the problem is that a mercantile empire either gets drawn into territorial possessions which diverts it or lack of those possessions mean it is unable to compete with other nations that deny it full - or possibly any - access to the lands it controls for trade purposes.
Britain's problem was less due to the world wars, although that didn't help. Its decline started with the mental attitude that supported laissez faire and free trade in a protectionist world. Especially since those same attitudes meant they largely saw employees as costs rather than assets so should to leave them as under-education, poor and powerless as possible. Which of course meant they had no great incentive in developing the companies they were working for and plenty to take a similar short term attitude in fighting their bosses on just about every issue.
However even with this unless Britain expands the territory under its direct control its going to be dwarfed by the continental sized powers that develop as industrial knowledge spreads. It can help prevent Europe being united under an autocratic state but N America, China, India etc is going to be pretty much impossible. Unless your got a mentality playing a continual zero sum game of totally screwing over the rest of the world at every opportunity - which is likely to end disastrously for us.
a) Way, way too late if possible at all.
b) If they were stupid enough - and had the capacity to do so - who the hell protects them the next time the French come calling?
I think the problem for the Dutch is what killed them as a great power OTL. Their a small state on a continent with a history of frequent warfare and a number of their neighbours having markedly more manpower and other military resources. Keeping the southern Netherlands aka Belgium and possibly bits of modern France and having it fully Protestant and incorporated would give them a lot more resources, especially if their able to win the independence war earlier. However it also puts them directly into land contact with France as well as whoever rules the HRE. Unless they then go on a major conquest spree in central/western Europe, which will drain resources away from colonial or mercantile development their always going to have to defend their borders against much more numerous foes.
At least OTL when Spain accepted their independence the southern Netherlands, under Spanish or later Austrian rule acted as a buffer to their primary threat after 1648, France. They could lose trade wars with England/Britain and still be reasonably prosperous but they couldn't lose a land war with France or alternatively say Austria or later on a powerful Prussia.
Buba
A total creep
In the Vysehrad ISOT:
- all four countries try to manufacture as much weaponry as they can. Hopefully they will coordinate and establish what they can share, what they can jury-rig, and what components need local manufacture being set up from scratch, as these previously had been sourced from abroad;
- the above applies to all manufacturing across the ISOT. No more Made in China goodies;
- incredibly Poland is a manufacturer of a 1000-1150hp radial engine, a grandchild of the Wright Cyclone. This will be useful;
- electronic banking crashes. It probably can be resurrected, but I doubt if e.g. VISA cards would work (at least anytime soon, if ever). Various national payment systems like e.g. Blik should work (I think), unless their data was in "clouds" somewhere ...
- Poland will embrace the Borderlands, and even its inhabitants. About three Army Corps worth of equipment and men comes along - about 12 InfDiv and some horse floggers;
- all four countries try to manufacture as much weaponry as they can. Hopefully they will coordinate and establish what they can share, what they can jury-rig, and what components need local manufacture being set up from scratch, as these previously had been sourced from abroad;
- the above applies to all manufacturing across the ISOT. No more Made in China goodies;
- incredibly Poland is a manufacturer of a 1000-1150hp radial engine, a grandchild of the Wright Cyclone. This will be useful
;- electronic banking crashes. It probably can be resurrected, but I doubt if e.g. VISA cards would work (at least anytime soon, if ever). Various national payment systems like e.g. Blik should work (I think), unless their data was in "clouds" somewhere ...
- Poland will embrace the Borderlands, and even its inhabitants
. About three Army Corps worth of equipment and men comes along - about 12 InfDiv and some horse floggers;
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
In the Vysehrad ISOT:
- all four countries try to manufacture as much weaponry as they can. Hopefully they will coordinate and establish what they can share, what they can jury-rig, and what components need local manufacture being set up from scratch;
- the above applies to all manufacturing across the ISOT;
- incredibly Poland is a manufacturer of a radial engine, a grandchild of the Wright Cyclone. This will be useful
- electronic banking crashes. It probably can be resurrected, but I doubt if e.g. VISA cards would work (at least anytime soon, if ever). Various national payment systems like e.g. Blik should work (I think(, unless their data was in "clouds" somewhere ...
- Poland will embrace the Borderlands, and even its inhabitants
For those areas where it falls short, I don't suppose they could reestablish ties with Britain and France, seeing as both are liberal-democratic and far friendlier to Viségrad interests than Germany or the USSR could ever be?
Obviously, they have lots of technology to offer, and given how many NATO assets have been sent back with Poland and the like, I assume it's only a matter of time before the once-isolationist US gets drawn into the fray. After all, legal debates over who owns which 2019 military assets and what to do with them won't count for much, if they're in Germany and the USSR's direct line of fire now. That, and Reich-Soviet relations will plummet to an all-time low once news of how OTL World War II went reach Hitler's and Stalin's desks, so there's that.
Buba
A total creep
Oh, foreign ties are indispensable!
Natural rubber for condoms doesn't grow on trees, you know? Well, it does, sorta, but not in Central Europe ...
Sadly Polish gold reserves - 130-200 tons in 2019 - are partly (mostly?) lost, as these were stored in London, UK.
I wonder how the situation in the other V4 countries looks like. All four will make a killing on drugs - both medicinal and recreational.
Float together or hang separately - I hope the ruling clowns coordinate ...
Loss of EU funds for all sorts of things will be messy ...
Especially for Poland, as it is a net beneficiary, even if edging towards 50-50. The other three are richer, hence are small net payers?
BTW - I dug up that Czechia is making aero inline engines, even if not very powerful. And apparently HURRAH! turboprops. That's one step away from jets. They (Poland too) used to make jet engines, maybe not all institutional knowledge is lost? Still - setting up manufacture of jets will take a few years.
In 2018 Poland had 1000 tanks. Just over half are unmodernised T-72 - which are murder in 1939 ...
Even their 12,7mm HMG are tank killers ...
Natural rubber for condoms doesn't grow on trees, you know? Well, it does, sorta, but not in Central Europe ...
Sadly Polish gold reserves - 130-200 tons in 2019 - are partly (mostly?) lost, as these were stored in London, UK.
I wonder how the situation in the other V4 countries looks like. All four will make a killing on drugs - both medicinal and recreational.
Float together or hang separately - I hope the ruling clowns coordinate ...
Loss of EU funds for all sorts of things will be messy ...
Especially for Poland, as it is a net beneficiary, even if edging towards 50-50. The other three are richer, hence are small net payers?
BTW - I dug up that Czechia is making aero inline engines, even if not very powerful. And apparently HURRAH! turboprops. That's one step away from jets. They (Poland too) used to make jet engines, maybe not all institutional knowledge is lost? Still - setting up manufacture of jets will take a few years.
In 2018 Poland had 1000 tanks. Just over half are unmodernised T-72 - which are murder in 1939 ...
Even their 12,7mm HMG are tank killers ...
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Would agree with the comment about an immediate war with Nazi Germany because of the loss of so much land - both to Poland and also because the Sudetenland is now back in Czech hands and there are no Germans there. Expect Adolf to have a serious fit. Then Nazi Germany has its arse handed to it.
What happens to the 1939 eastern Poland territory would be a difficult issue. How with a still conservative but far more democratic Poland treat those territories which are overwhelmingly non-Polish but had a Polish elite in most cases that will be very confused by the new Poland that has emerged? They definitely won't want those lands falling into Stalin's hands.
A lot could depend on the attitude of Britain and France, and probably also the US. How quickly and fully will they accept what the newcomers tell them about what is to come. Both in the short term with details of WWII - which could really screw over Japan
Going to be a hell of a lot of butterflies.
Steve
They ,as @Buba said,could stand together or die separated.But,i think that they would be smart enough to stand together.
They would take East Poland and Carpathian region of Czechoslovakia.
Hitler woud be furious,but could not attack without Sralin.Sralin would knew future,so no alliance here.I see defeated germans and rich Visegrad Group ruling Europe.
With England,USA,France and Japan plaing nice.
Would Visegrad Group knew that USA provoked war with Japan? if so,FDR is fucked.
P.S our polish opposition would lost their german backers,sniff,sniff.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
'Plausibility Of The Lesser Mao's China?'.
That is, whether or not a PRC that resembles the oversized bastard lovechild of North Korea and the Khmer Rouge run by Mao's horribly deranged nephew could've arisen, as depicted in AH.com's Fear, Loathing, and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72 TL. (The US degenerating into a Christian fundamentalist hellscape after an indecisive election is a paranoid and extremely partisan fever dream, of course, though personally, I believe Maoist China at this time had way better odds of taking a turn for the worse than America at its more dire ever had.)
That is, whether or not a PRC that resembles the oversized bastard lovechild of North Korea and the Khmer Rouge run by Mao's horribly deranged nephew could've arisen, as depicted in AH.com's Fear, Loathing, and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72 TL. (The US degenerating into a Christian fundamentalist hellscape after an indecisive election is a paranoid and extremely partisan fever dream, of course, though personally, I believe Maoist China at this time had way better odds of taking a turn for the worse than America at its more dire ever had.)
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Currently I am doing this : https://www.the-sietch.com/index.ph...te-history-idea-novel.7699/page-2#post-287093 and it also available here with .... pictures !(sorry to everyone still can't afford a subscription) What If : Operation Gallop Was A Success ? Basically Hitler is killed off by accident by the Soviets while in Ukraine, leading to the allies of Germany noping out quickly but keeping their gains and the Soviets having much clout and bargaining power get far as Belgium and Luxembourg.
With help by @ATP and @Circle of Willis I am writing the part for a Eisenhower followed by Stassen presidency with two terms each leading to a Wallace presidency in 1964.
With help by @ATP and @Circle of Willis I am writing the part for a Eisenhower followed by Stassen presidency with two terms each leading to a Wallace presidency in 1964.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Alash Orda goes indipedent before Lenin/Stalin can take them.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Speaking of Italy...are there any other Italians here ?
Well,ancient polish gentry considered themselves as romans even if they belived to be Sarmatians at the same time,and some of my ancestors was gentry,so....
You could count me in less then 50%,i think.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
‘Punic Industrial Revolution’.
Probably ASB, but given both how Rome/Greece are such go-to’s for these sorts of what-ifs and the various “proto-examples” of industrial-age tech they developed IOTL (such as serialized production), I thought it’d be fun to make Carthage the Workshop of the Med this time.
Probably ASB, but given both how Rome/Greece are such go-to’s for these sorts of what-ifs and the various “proto-examples” of industrial-age tech they developed IOTL (such as serialized production), I thought it’d be fun to make Carthage the Workshop of the Med this time.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Touché.
Nonetheless, I chose them more for the fact that (as far as I'm aware) there've been no what-ifs where Carthage gets a two-thousand year tech boost, whereas Rome and Greece already have quite a few. Plus, Carthage is fundamentally a mercantile empire that maintains a first-rate navy for purposes of trade and commerce across the Med. Kind of like a certain, Anglo-Saxon maritime superpower from (now-butterflied) OTL future...
Buba
A total creep
Our knowledge of Carthage (or Pheonicia) is limited, hence not sexy
Same applies to our knowledge of the mineral resources of North Africa. All I know is that Algeria has iron ore (but is it mineable in 500BC?). Hence my first reaction for Carthaginian Industrial Revolution/ uplift is "exploit Iberia more".
Hmmm - sell salt across the Sahara (not as dry as today, 2000 years of desertification by goat less) for gold - but I'm fairly sure that the polities which took care of the gold part do not yet exist. I've read that the trans Saharan trade took off under the Arabs as several things came together. But still ...
No west African trade by sea, no tech for that yet. But more trade with Gaul (both ends), Britain, North Sea area?
Same applies to our knowledge of the mineral resources of North Africa. All I know is that Algeria has iron ore (but is it mineable in 500BC?). Hence my first reaction for Carthaginian Industrial Revolution/ uplift is "exploit Iberia more".
Hmmm - sell salt across the Sahara (not as dry as today, 2000 years of desertification by goat less) for gold - but I'm fairly sure that the polities which took care of the gold part do not yet exist. I've read that the trans Saharan trade took off under the Arabs as several things came together. But still ...
No west African trade by sea, no tech for that yet. But more trade with Gaul (both ends), Britain, North Sea area?
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