Peasants weren't considered Polish? Not even after they immigrated to, say, France or the US and still continued to speak Polish?
Alternate History Ideas and Discussion
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Peasants weren't considered Polish? Not even after they immigrated to, say, France or the US and still continued to speak Polish?
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Understandable. (Err... well, as close as Hitler's motivations and thought process get to it, anyway.
)In any case, I suppose ATL World War II (or the Second Great War, whichever) would be quite different than OTL. Even assuming comparable military technology (as well as tactical and operational doctrine), Trotskyist Russia will almost certainly fund Marxist terrorism and the armed wings of communist parties throughout Europe, which may create something of an insurgency or civil war in every major European nation backed by Soviet revolutionary largesse. Concurrently, I'm guessing the Red Army will roll into Eastern and Central Europe to "assist their comrades" in Poland and Finland, as well as Germany and its neighbors thereafter (even if Hitler and the Nazis still wind up in charge). All in all, lots of border-gore via a weird mash-up of "nation-versus-nation" conflict and civil wars between communist and non-left factions across mainland Europe, though the Asian theater (which will be preoccupied with problems of its own) is another story.
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They could be considered as poles there,but not in polish territories.Except few free farmers.
Understandable. (Err... well, as close as Hitler's motivations and thought process gets, anyway.
In any case, I suppose ATL World War II would be quite different than OTL. Even assuming comparable military technology (as well as tactical and operational doctrine), Trotskyist Russia will almost certainly fund Marxist terrorism and the armed wings of communist parties throughout Europe, which may create something of an insurgency or civil war in every major European nation backed by Soviet revolutionary largesse. Simultaneously, I'm guessing the Red Army will roll into Eastern and Central Europe to "assist their comrades" in Poland and Finland, as well as Germany and its neighbors thereafter (even if Hitler and the Nazis still wind up in charge). All in all, lots of border-gore via a weird mash-up of "nation-versus-nation" conflict and civil wars between communist and non-left factions across mainland Europe, though the Asian theater (which will be preoccupied with problems of its own) is another story.
Expect to see a lot of brutal anti-Communist White Terror pogroms in such a scenario, comparable to Hungary's White Terror in 1919-1921 but much greater in magnitude since we're going to have Hitler and like-minded people leading the charge here. In other words, first the Communists attempt insurgencies, then they fail, and then they get to be the victims of an extremely massive wave of White Terror. Could be a good amount of anti-Jewish pogroms in there as well, comparable to Ukraine during the Russian Civil War but nothing in scale comparable to the Holocaust, thankfully.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Sounds about right, but I expect the communists to fight brutally and to the bitter end, as well as to emulate their Bolshevik counterparts by indulging in waves of Red Terror—against capitalists, clergy, and bourgeoise alike—that are met by crushing retaliation from conservative/reactionary governments (who will dish out precisely the White Terror you describe). I don't expect most of them to set up long-lasting states, of course, judging by how fast Revolutionary Catalonia self-destructed in real life.
However, you still have Trotskyist Russia in the ring, so while it probably won't have enough of an industrial base or international support to last as long as Stalinist Russia did against the Western powers (especially in the face of a German invasion), it's still a huge country with lots of people, and is the centerpiece of the World Revolution sweeping across Europe ITTL. Overall, it seems to me we've got ourselves a continent-spanning Spanish Civil War in the West and reverse Operation Barbarossa in the East (spearheaded by the actual USSR, obviously).
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Yep, expect this to be a total clusterfuck and bloodbath all around, and as I previously said, expect European Jewry to get deported out of Europe en masse if the Nazis will win this war because the Nazis are certainly going to blame everything on them, especially with a Jew such as Trotsky being in charge of the Soviet Union.
Any takers for this AHC of mine?
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Quite, although I wonder if we can also expect communists to also turn on the Jews? The "greedy Jews" stereotype is still entrenched in the minds of most, after all, so I'd expect a good number of revolutionaries to hold anti-Semitic attitudes on the grounds of them being "capitalists" and "financiers". At worst, it'll probably be lots of far-left pogroms across Europe that get lumped in with the whole Red Terror sperg-out, rather than one gigantic genocide carried out by one country (and its allies), which I'd expect the Nazis to implement in some form or another once the war's over. (Of course, depending on how many Jews die in the communist pogroms, that may make Hitler's job easier than the task of rounding up, deporting, enslaving, and exterminating six million of them was IOTL.
)Quite, although I wonder if we can also expect communists to also turn on the Jews? The "greedy Jews" stereotype is still entrenched in the minds of most, after all, so I'd expect a good number of revolutionaries to hold anti-Semitic attitudes on the grounds of them being "capitalists" and "financiers". At worst, it'll probably be lots of far-left pogroms across Europe that get lumped in with the whole Red Terror sperg-out, rather than one gigantic genocide carried out by one country (and its allies), which I'd expect the Nazis to carry out after the war is over. (Of course, depending on how many Jews die in the communist pogroms, that may make Hitler's job easier than the task of exterminating six million of them IOTL.
No Communists are going to dare engage in anti-Jewish pogroms when the Soviet hand that feeds and sustains them is itself led by a Jew. They do that, and Soviet funding for their cause comes to a complete halt.
BTW, what do you think of my Kazakhstan AHC above?
The Commies didn't have a list because there were no populations they didn't intend to enslave to the last babe in arms and no dissident they didn't plan to exterminate. If you were German or Norse or Frankish or Anglo-Saxon and kept your head down things aren't nearly as bad under Nazism triumphant as under Communism triumphant. And the Italians give shelter to southern Europeans as long as Germany needs Italy, which it does until the Brits, Americans, and Japanese are no longer a threat, a point it can never reach because Nazism needs Germans or people it can persuade both itself and themselves that they are Germans to form its army and occupation forces. There is no sensible timeline in which they conquer anything in the Americas that isn't already an European colony or in which they are still land when they get past the Persian oilfields in south Asia or interested in contesting Japan east of the Urals in north Asia. And whatever line they draw on the map between German and Japanese Russia, there will be so little settled population and so difficult to police a border that the real boundary of the two nations will be a narrow strip along the TSR with the wild lands away from it effectively held by neither. There is practically no chance they conquer by force or diplomacy the UK after Edward VIII abdicates. They should have chosen a honey pot that hadn't been divorced. Undesirables outside the territory they could conquer with Germanic soldiers or territory conquered by nations they could compel to follow their policies were also safe from them. From Communism there is no sanctuary. Stalin and Mao aren't competing for kill count. They and every Marxist rebel are a team.
Actually, all it takes for the Holocaust to be prevented is for a nation outside continental Europe to say "sure, we'll take your Jews. They'll make wealth again." If the UK adheres to the Balfour Declaration and opens the mandate of Palestine and Hitler has the same notion as Stalin to delay crossing the Polish border so the other guy gets the blame there's not much stopping Hitler from being judged by history as a useful strongman against Communism whose genocidal pretensions were mostly just talk. At least until revisionists come along and paint everyone that isn't a Communist as literally Satan while beatifying the Commies.
I would have actually been fully in favor of such an approach, but the question is, could it have actually been done during wartime? And FWIW, I think that India might have been a less explosive temporary resettlement destination for European Jewry than Palestine was. India also had many more people, so an influx of millions of Jews would barely make a dent in their demographics, unlike for Palestine, where the demographic impact of this would be quite significant.
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
"What's that? No more NATO or EU oversight? But we still have those shiny missiles stationed here? Oh, it would be such a shame if something unfortunate happened..."
Five minutes later: Berlin and Moscow and a few other cities get hit with the sort of weapons nobody had even imagined yet. Hitler, Stalin, and their respective cliques of goons die in the sudden inferno.
Springtime for Poland and Hungary... Winter for nazis and reds....
Do the various Soviet SSRs get liberated?
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
The ISOT happens on January 1st, so butterflies mean Stalin may not be where he was on May 1st IOTL. That said, I suppose they could track him (as well as Hitler) by flying drones over Soviet (or German) territory, though whether they'll be able to avoid being intercepted by the Luftwaffe or Soviet Air Forces is beyond my pay grade. Could probably also drone-bomb them if they wanted, too, though that may cause a diplomatic uproar (or at least alarm). Plus, even if the Western democracies are convinced that the uptimers are legit, it may take time to explain or show them enough future history to justify taking out the Nazi and/or Soviet leadership preemptively, even if their reasons for why are completely understandable.
Buba
A total creep
Due to parts of the III Reich being overwritten, war starts on January 1st.
If the Corridor was bad, think of the distance from the Oder to Koenigsberg ...
On May the 1st Stalin must watch the Mayday parade from Lenin's Mausoleum. It is part of the Soviet Union's religion.
If the Corridor was bad, think of the distance from the Oder to Koenigsberg ...
On May the 1st Stalin must watch the Mayday parade from Lenin's Mausoleum. It is part of the Soviet Union's religion.
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How would present-day Poland fare against 1939 Nazi Germany? And would Hungary actually be a Polish ally here or would it instead seek to attack 1939 Romania over Transylvania? It seems like an easy conquest for Orban's Hungary, no? Of course, Hungary could do this while simultaneously being a Polish ally, but still, Poles are not going to enjoy watching 1939 Romania get raped by Hungary.
Is there any realistic chance that the neutral territory in central Anatolia in the proposed Sykes-Picot-Sazonov Agreement could also go to Russia as a part of this agreement?
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
‘ATL Commercial Superpowers’.
That is, rich and highly mercantile civilizations that could’ve existed, lasted longer, or been much more powerful than they were IOTL. A surviving Carthage, a Song China that industrialized, or a British Empire that didn’t exhaust itself via two World Wars all come to mind here, though I’m curious to read everyone else’s suggestions, too.
That is, rich and highly mercantile civilizations that could’ve existed, lasted longer, or been much more powerful than they were IOTL. A surviving Carthage, a Song China that industrialized, or a British Empire that didn’t exhaust itself via two World Wars all come to mind here, though I’m curious to read everyone else’s suggestions, too.
Maybe have Italian unification somehow come about during the Middle Ages, thus combining Genoa's, Pisa's, and Venice's maritime commercial empires into one state/empire?