Feeble Constitution - A Red-and-Green Russia 1917 Timeline
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Alternate History Ideas and Discussion
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TheRomanSlayer
Putang Ina Mo, Katolikong Hayop!
WWI Russian War Aims Question:
1) In the event of a Russian victory in WW1, which scenario would have been better overall for Tsarist Russia? All of the territories of Galicia-Lodomeria going to Congress Poland, or partitioning it, as originally planned? I'm asking this because by this point, the area of Galicia was the battleground between those who want to include it into a revived independent Polish state, the Russophiles that wanted to include Galicia into Tsarist Russia, and the Ukrainophiles that wanted to build a future Ukrainian state, with Galicia as its founding block, and eventually expanding it into the areas of the Ukrainian People's Republic.
2) Just how realistic would its expansion into Ottoman Anatolia be, if they're getting more Armenians into Russia overall?
3) Is it more realistic to turn the Bosporus region area into a separate state? Or would Constantinople be better off becoming the European version of Singapore?
1) In the event of a Russian victory in WW1, which scenario would have been better overall for Tsarist Russia? All of the territories of Galicia-Lodomeria going to Congress Poland, or partitioning it, as originally planned? I'm asking this because by this point, the area of Galicia was the battleground between those who want to include it into a revived independent Polish state, the Russophiles that wanted to include Galicia into Tsarist Russia, and the Ukrainophiles that wanted to build a future Ukrainian state, with Galicia as its founding block, and eventually expanding it into the areas of the Ukrainian People's Republic.
2) Just how realistic would its expansion into Ottoman Anatolia be, if they're getting more Armenians into Russia overall?
3) Is it more realistic to turn the Bosporus region area into a separate state? Or would Constantinople be better off becoming the European version of Singapore?
Buba
A total creep
Define "Russian victory in WW1". Does the Provisional Government holding to power until XI.1918 count?
1 - partition
2 - not very realistic nor sensible, but Russia is not known for doing the sensible. Limits are in the Sykes-Picot agreement, though.
3 - IIRC this was established in some agreement with other Powers
1 - partition
2 - not very realistic nor sensible, but Russia is not known for doing the sensible. Limits are in the Sykes-Picot agreement, though.
3 - IIRC this was established in some agreement with other Powers
1. Including a lot of Ukrainian nationalists in Russia proper rather than Congress Poland might be deemed undesirable if they will make the rest of Russia's Ukrainians more nationalistic, though.
3. AFAIK, Russia planned to acquire the Straits for itself.
In regards to your point #2 here, in theory, Russia could ask for the neutral zone in central Anatolia to be given to it as well:
I don't know if the West would actually agree to this, but Russia could at least try to do this.
I've answered #1 and #3 above. Culturally, Galicians are closer to Poles than to other Ukrainians in the 1910s, so including them in Congress Poland makes the most sense. That said, though, a Russian nationalist might have made a different decision in regards to this. As for the Straits, AFAIK, Russia wanted them for itself, as per the map above. Or at least Tsarist Russia did.
TheRomanSlayer
Putang Ina Mo, Katolikong Hayop!
It would have made more sense if the Bosporus stairs area were to have been turned into a separate entity, one that might be tied closely to Russia or neutral. At least no one would be able to directly annex those territories.
That was what the Russian Provisional Government wanted after the negative reaction to this note:
TheRomanSlayer
Putang Ina Mo, Katolikong Hayop!
I also wonder how would the development of the partitioned areas of Anatolia would look like if the Treaty of Sevres was enforced, and Ataturk was killed in the Turkish War of Independence?
Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
‘1942 Axis Powers And United States To 1812’.
In other words: Germany, Italy, and Japan get sent back, with the only America to stand between them and the rapid subjugation of Eurasia. (Napoleon and France are, of course, sidelined and neutralized before the US can really get up and moving, though I’m guessing Hitler would pull out all the stops to meet his idol and make sure he’s unharmed.)
In other words: Germany, Italy, and Japan get sent back, with the only America to stand between them and the rapid subjugation of Eurasia. (Napoleon and France are, of course, sidelined and neutralized before the US can really get up and moving, though I’m guessing Hitler would pull out all the stops to meet his idol and make sure he’s unharmed.)
Skallagrim
Well-known member
...Only to then realise that Napoleon made a habit of freeing Jews from the ghettos and giving them full citizenship, upon which he'd probably have Nappy killed without any further delay.
Anyway, Germany is free to do as it wants, but suffers from poor roads and infrastructure throughout Europe. Even 'living off the land' is tricky, since 1812 agricultural production is done by (and suited to) the much smaller 1812 population of the regions involved.
Buba
A total creep
Month?
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Zyobot
Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Eh, let's say January 1st on both years, just to keep the timekeeping simple.
Yeah, that'll be a "tough" adjustment, though I suppose Germany's insurmountable tech lead means it's in no danger from its neighbors (with Italy and Japan enjoying similar benefits). After all, the lack of up-to-date infrastructure in all their neighbors is a double-edged sword, seeing as the downtimers have no means of actually beating back the Axis Powers on their own (and are thus at the mercy of whatever forces the uptimers can mobilize).
Naturally, this leaves only the United States—gigantic, turbocharged, and pissed off from Pearl Harbor and Hitler's declaration of war last December—left to finish the job. And even then, its lack of uptimer allies and the fact that Lend-Lease won't be of much use to downtimers without the preexisting ports, facilities, or expertise to man 1942 tech means it'll have to take on the Axis on its own (with the rest of Europe there to cheer "USA! USA!" from the sidelines).
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Logistics for D-Day is going to be a huge bitch with Britain's 1812 levels of development and with Russia also at 1812 levels of development and thus being incapable of effectively fighting Nazi Germany.
'World War I breaks out in December 1912 as a result of Austria-Hungary wanting to take Serbia down a notch for expanding so much at the Ottoman Empire's expense'
Maybe this happens if Russia refuses to stop its mobilization against Austria in November or December 1912?
Maybe this happens if Russia refuses to stop its mobilization against Austria in November or December 1912?
These are two very different scenarios. If it's Germany, Italy, and Japan, America trashes them because there's almost no oil production outside America. Japan has the Karafuto prefecture, but that isn't nearly enough. If it's the whole Axis, Germany probably gets its 1000 year reich thanks to Romanian oil and Roosevelt prioritizing Japan. Romanian oil industry workers can provide the expertise to develop the Crimean oil fields and the European Axis members can achieve autarchy.
The concept of the Number Zero and the arabic numbers is adopted by the romans after the end of the Liberator's Civil War in 42 BC. How quickly would this new way of mathematics spread and when would things truly change?
Through Iran and Turkey.British could do so in 19th century,but why? canal in Egypt was better.Ships always take more then trains.
Russia try that,becouse they could be cut off from seas - no danger for England.
Skallagrim
Well-known member
The Arabic numerals didn't exist yet, so that would be a bit of a problem. 'Zero' did exist, but was only used as a place-holder. To use it was you'd want it to be used, it needs to develop into a number in its own right, so it can be employed usefully in calculus. This only happened somewhere between AD 400 and AD 500 in OTL, so some developments would be needed there, as well.
Britain actively tried to create the Cape-to-Cairo railroad, and although far more nebulous, the notion of Cape-to-Singapore was certainly there. This would allow the British overland route to largely encirle the Indian Ocean.
Indochina is actually the major obstacle, since (as we see in OTL) the least impractical thing to do is to cut west from Southern Burma to Bangkok, then Saigon, and then along the Vietnamese coast. This is a huge diversion, in terms of overall distance, but it's more practical than trying an inland route across the mountains.
Realistically speaking, Cape-to-Singapore has merit, but from Singapore onward, it's more practical to just go by ship under any given circumstance.
The major obstacle for Cape-to-Singapore is Persia. I think that any ATL scenario that has Britain going for some workable version of Imperial federation and winning (or, possibly, averting) the Great War can quite realistically get you this result. Southern Persia could realistically be turned into a perment sphere of influence, absent the huge losses of the war, and then the rail project could be constructed over a few decades. I think that by the 1940s, you'd realistically have Cape-to-Singapore.
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Buba
A total creep
Not that actively - it was more a political slogan than anything. Never bothered to build the North Rhodesia to Tanganika nor Kenya to Sudan bits..
I know I've seen a nifty RR map somewhere ...
If you can't squint enough - red is 1520mm, green is 1435mm, grey is 1676mm, and the colour which shall remain nameless in Indochina is 1000mm. Orange - as well as japan - is 1067mm.
On the positive side - it is possible to run dual gauge (i.e. three rails) lines where 1435mm is combined with either 1000 or 1676mm.