Point of detail -- the Brimstone is a Hellfire missile, just with the laser guidance swapped out for millimeter-wave radar (and then later added back in with the dual mode version). It's basically a separately developed British version of Longbow Hellfire.
Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)
- Thread starter ParadiseLost
- Start date
Point of detail -- the Brimstone is a Hellfire missile, just with the laser guidance swapped out for millimeter-wave radar (and then later added back in with the dual mode version). It's basically a separately developed British version of Longbow Hellfire.
Doesn't the Brimstone have better range than the Hellfire?
And do Hellfire's come with the swarm-logic bits built in like the Brimstones?
planefag
A Flying Bundle of Sticks
did you even read the rest of that post
AnimalNoodles
Well-known member
US Secretary of Defense requests a ceasefire. US military brass are fully aware of the real situation on the ground.
Megadeath
Well-known member
Everyone from collective groups of multinational school children to the pope, from national leaders to Russian expats, have all been calling for an end to hostilities since Russia initiated them. Mostly because, unlike some, they have a healthy human quality called empathy and don't believe that innocent grandparents, women and children being murdered, displaced, raped and robbed is worth vague strategic goals. Or, at the very least recognise that the silver lining of hurting Russia isn't worth the damage to the global economy and international trust.
US Secretary of Defense requests a ceasefire. US military brass are fully aware of the real situation on the ground.
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
Okay that was a long winded rant that really didn't have anything to do with what I was talking about earlier which was about US citizens starting to get bitchy about all the money our worthless politicians keep dumping into foreign conflicts when you look at how our economy has gone to shit. But somehow you felt compelled to have your long winded sperg out about cold war equipment and a potential war with China when lets be real that conflict will go nuclear no avoiding that.
Uh...
US Secretary of Defense requests a ceasefire. US military brass are fully aware of the real situation on the ground.
Ceasefire have been wanting to happen since the beginning. Even Zelenksy called for them when Russia was on Kievs door.
This is not the US Brass thinking it is over.
"They are losing so they request a ceasefire" is a kind of logic that is quite accurate...
US Secretary of Defense requests a ceasefire. US military brass are fully aware of the real situation on the ground.
To diplomacy systems of 4X games with disappointingly simple AI.
Guess that's the level of geopolitical analysis you are on.
Meanwhile in reality:
Ukraine demands 'immediate' cease-fire – DW – 03/14/2022
Ukraine says it wants an immediate ceasefire and Russia's withdrawal of troops as talks resume. A top negotiator said only then could regional relations and political differences be discussed.
www.dw.com
U.S. Condemns Russia For Shelling Ukrainian Cities As Russian Troops Loom Outside Kyiv
Follow live updates as delegations from Russia and Ukraine are meeting for talks near the Ukraine-Belarus border.
www.forbes.com
Sure...
Also applying that AI logic to other conflicts...
US calls for a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas
Trusted and independent source of local, national and world news. In-depth analysis, business, sport, weather and more.
www.abc.net.au
AnimalNoodles
Well-known member
What was the USA saying not too long ago? There was no route out for Russia? That the purpose of this war was to bleed Russia dry?
I mean, I can tell you the military does not think any differently then we did.
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
Let me try to TL;DR what I think planefag's basic point is:
1. If you agree that it's appropriate to spend some of our money on military spending, you want it to be spent as usefully as possible
2. There are hostile powers that we are worried about, among them Russia. Them having less military equipment means less threat to us means lower spending needed to counter it.
3a. Have you heard phrases like "eating pancakes like they were going out of style"? The implication is that in the future the activity you're doing is going to be unavailable, or get you less value, etc.
3b. A lot of the military equipment we have sent to Ukraine is literally going out of style.
3c. It has been very effective at reducing the Russian threat we had formerly spent so much effort on countering, and its ability to reconstitute that threat is also much reduced.
If you think any future conflict will be nuclear or nothing and therefore there is no need for conventional military spending anyway ... I regret to inform you that none of the governments involved are going to see it that way so you may as well adjust your expectations accordingly.
planefag
A Flying Bundle of Sticks
Russia is the only one hurting Russia. Russia can stop this invasion at any time and go home.
I haven't seen very many people, outside of Tucker Carlson, "getting bitchy" about our weapons blowing up Russian tanks. Almost like people mind a lot less when their money is actually visibly doing something instead of being sent to a bunch of 5th-century barbarians who capitulate to the enemy immediately solely because the elitist political class can't admit their power and wisdom aren't infinite. Victory is it's own argument.
Do you think nukes are magic death rays, or something? You can indeed fight on a nuclear battlefield and in point of fact most big armies are prepared to do so. There's a reason tanks and AFVs in every significant world power are equipped with full Nuclear, Biological and Chemical protection systems (overpressure to keep the nasty air outside.)
I think people are pointing to Rand Paul not voting on the bill because he wanted transparency of where it goes which made the other side claim "YOU DONT SUPPORT UKRAINE!"
planefag
A Flying Bundle of Sticks
I'm very sympathetic to Rand Paul's demand for a position of "inspector general" to oversee how the funds are spent. I also question why the hell everything has to be a $40 billion lump sum instead of smaller incremental bills pushed out regularly. Wait, I know why! It's just like COVID - appropriate a shitfuckton of money, then turn around and declare the vast pile of unused cash as "surplus" and then spend it any way you damn please, right? Sure, maybe it'll all get used this time. But it sure doesn't hurt to set up a possibility for a windfall for themselves later, does it? Politicians, man. Politicians.
People jumping to conclusions and forcing thier agenda by claiming something is what they do to get support
Carrot of Truth
War is Peace
Obviously they aren't magic death rays but a full scale nuclear exchange between the PRC and US even today with reduced arsenals will render both countries incapable of sustaining any sort of war across the pacific ocean. It would be questionable if their governments would even continue to exist after doing so. The only hot spot that could theoretically remain a conventional conflict is over Taiwan. But this is all a completely moot because my original point is the US government keeps wanting to print more money to send over to Ukraine. The economic situation in the US is not good and domestic support for arming Ukraine will quickly dry up if the inflation continues to rise.
When fired from a fixed-wing platform, range is almost double thanks to being able to glide from the higher launch speed. When fired from a helicopter, range is the same.
Hellfire Longbow does, although the programming is a little different -- Brimstone is optimized for a fixed-wing platform doing a "one and gone" salvo of *all* its Brimstones without sticking around, Hellfire Longbow is optimized for an Apache Longbow helicopter behind terrain cover scanning the target zone using its overhead mast radar and then unleashing Longbows to arc over the cover.
planefag
A Flying Bundle of Sticks
You up for some light reading my mans?
the Teal Dear here is that in an age when the existence of a long-range, long-endurance stealth recon drone in the US arsenal is all but confirmed, maybe, just maybe enemies of the United States aren't entirely insane for thinking that Mutual Assured Destruction might be under threat.
Take Russia, for instance. With their nuclear-powered cruise missile (aka Project Pluto lite) and nuclear torpedoes and other goofy shit. Waaaay back when Reagan first proposed SDI, before the technology was anywhere even close to being able to do the mythical "hit a bullet with another bullet" trick, people pointed out - you know, even IF you get the tech to that point? You still have the cost-efficiency problem. i.e. it'll always be cheaper to shoot more warheads than it will be to shoot those warheads down, so your defense can always be saturated. You can see the Chinese doing this with their military strategy which boils down to "Anti-ship cruise missiles to purchase == [magazine capacity of average American fleet] +1." So with the Russians, y'know, why not just... like... MIRV more missiles? They could've brought that up in the START negotiations that are due pretty soon, y'know? Or, OR, they don't even bother with that, and just build more ICBMs with decoys, so they can put 10x the number of decoys in space to ensure their actual warheads get through. Cuz why not, right?
No. No no. Not even Russians can be that stupid and paranoid. I have a feeling they've got good reasons for pursuing that crazy shit, and the best explanation for it is - they're not so sure that they're safe from a pre-emptive counter-force strike. Maaaaybe, just maybe, the Americans CAN find all those ICBM TEL's scattered across Darkest Siberia...
I knew about Hellfire-L's over-the-hill engagement capability (because I played Janes Apache Longbow many moons ago lmao) but are you telling me that Hellfire Longbow has a lock-on-after-launch capability? I thought the Apache passed the targeting data to the missile after finding the targets with its masthead cheese wheel.
Longbow getting targeting data in advance from the masthead sensor is the optimal firing mode, but yes, Longbow Hellfire does have lock on after launch capability if needed. They can snap-launch the Longbows blind and let them autonomously select their own targets.
Edit: The "over the hill" shots you're talking about are already a limited form of lock on after launch. The Longbow radar lets the helicopter gunner see targets and then "pick" which ones to engage with Longbow Hellfire, but it's set up as a "pop up and scan" setup, not real time continuous tracking. So the targeting information that gets handed to the missile isn't a hard lock, it's a soft lock along the lines of "Here's a radar map over-the-hill. This one here is your assigned target. Once triggered, fly over the terrain on inertial guidance, then spin up your own radar, locate that target, and kill it."
So the 'ideal' Longbow shot is effectively LOAL with a "sneak preview" to let a human gunner handle target prioritization because they do that *better* than an algorithm. Note that the dual-mode laser seeker + millimeter wave setup on upgraded Brimstones is intended to do exactly the same thing, allow the autonomous guidance to follow after man-in-the-loop target selection. And the even more advanced triple mode seeker on the U.S. Army's next generation replacement for Hellfire takes that hybrid guidance concept even further.
Note that Brimstone's "salvo everything fire and forget on a single pass, missiles have autonomous swarm-logic to pick their own targets" is the exact same concept as the cancelled AGM-124 Wasp mini-missiles for the A-10, and for the exact same reason -- a fast mover simply doesn't have *time* to select and engage optimal targets when making firing passes in a target rich environment.
Last edited:
planefag
A Flying Bundle of Sticks
That is SICK. Makes me think that VLS-launched Hellfire-L thing they did for the LCS program is neater than they're letting on. Actual over-the-horizon capability.