Russian Invasion of Ukraine 2022
- Thread starter killerofa23
- Start date
Wargamer08
Well-known member
I mean it sucks, but this is what all those smug gloats about the drive by molotov attacks and resistance to the last man lead to. Drive a vehicle towards a vehicle column? Get treated like a threat.
Also unlike the deliberate Geneva Convention violations of Ukraine, there is nothing covering that. It's neither intentionally targeted at civilians nor widespread.
Most of not all top down AT weapons are Tandem.
AFAIK, most missles sre tandem if not they arnt HEAT. So the cages don't work.
They work against small drones dropping bombs, but Javelins are literally going to treat them like paper
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Apparently there is an Ukranian Foreign Legion now. Tons of people of the Ukrainian diaspora are joining, INCLUDING Brazilians of Ukranian descent. My mother is probably the only one I have seen so far that wants to genuinely support the country in a moral-ethical way (unlike the NPCs you see in Twitter).
Wargamer08
Well-known member
Tandem warheads are normally HEAT though, that's why they have a Tandem warhead at all? Tandem missiles are a warhead with two, thus tandem, charges. The first one detonate to reduce the effectiveness of ERA or spaced armor and the second contains the main anti armor charge.
I'm starting to feel like the people laughing at the Russians attempt at top mounted spaced armor don't even understand why they made the attempt in the first place.
No it's not going to stop an aerial launched ATGM, those are way too powerful for a half meter of spacing to matter against top armor. Now a top attack missiles like a Javelin or a TOW2? That might convert a near hit against a depressed tank into a near miss.
I don't see how them blowing away a sedan could be seen as anything other than deliberate targeting. Also, the car stopped far short of the armored vehicles, seemingly as soon as the driver saw them, yet the Russians still fired at the completely stationary car multiple times.
Yeah, why arent Zawhatshisname, Vindman, Chaney, and the pro-Ukraine posters enlisted yet?
Wargamer08
Well-known member
Did they know for a fact that the car contained civilians or could it have contained the spread of irregular fighters shown attacking Russian vehicles? Is this part of a policy of intentional attacking civilians? A tragedy? Definitely and not something I want to see repeated. But if that was a car bomb or a molotov attack, the usual suspects would be crowing about how brave and cunning the Ukrainians are and how stupid and weak the Russians are.
Frankly as civilians in a warzone, your job is to either leave the combat area, if you cannot leave shelter away from belligerent equipment. Want to avoid civilian deaths? Don't hole up in cities and make extensive use of irregulars. Surrender when your field armies are encircled or destroyed. You don't get to use cities and by extension civilians cover, then complain when they get collatoraled.
Except, again, the car stopped far short of the Russians. If the point was to attack them, one would expect the vehicle to charge right on in, not stop 50 feet short of them. So, again, I'm going to say it's an intentional targeting unless the Russians can show otherwise.
Wargamer08
Well-known member
You do you, it's pretty far from good but I wouldn't call it a warcrime. Though these days everything is a warcrime if Russia does it and nothing is if the Ukrainians do it. Just like when it was the middle east and everything the US did was a warcrime and nothing the insurgency did was.
Calling everyone you don't like and everything they do warcrimes vasty degrades the word. I firmly believe both sides are and will commit actual warcrimes, both should be punished for them, according to the actual rules about them. Ruleless war benefits no one, least of all civilians caught in the fighting.
Some more random bits from Twitter yesterday.
Appears the visually impressive missile strikes on Vinnytsia Airfield missed the runway.
A Russian Regimental Commander was reportedly killed.
Alleged Javelin strike on a Russian armored vehicle caught on drone footage.
Russian MoD footage showing armored vehicles including a BMP with the ol Soviet flag
Reportedly an Islander missile cargo section inferring it deployed cluster munitions.
Appears the visually impressive missile strikes on Vinnytsia Airfield missed the runway.
A Russian Regimental Commander was reportedly killed.
Alleged Javelin strike on a Russian armored vehicle caught on drone footage.
Russian MoD footage showing armored vehicles including a BMP with the ol Soviet flag
Reportedly an Islander missile cargo section inferring it deployed cluster munitions.
What......
Yes the Jave is a HEAT warhead. But it is not normal HEAT. .which SLATE armor would be good against.
It being tandem means there is a smaller explosion that basically destroys the cope cage, and the HEAT head goes right through the top of the tank.
And NEAR hit with a Jave or TOW? Maybe the TOW but the Jave doesn't really miss.
Also the space between the horrible SLAT armor and the top of the tank is not far enough to make a diffrence.
We have yet to see a single COPE Cage work.
Chiron
Well-known member
290 Javelins have been fired according to Ukraine. Yet we only have documentation of 13 Russian AFVs taken out by Javelins to the point they are write offs as opposed to a mission kill and still returnable to combat after repairs. An indication that the cages are working in combination with the ERA and other countermeasures such as smoke dischargers that saturate infrared sensors and lasers, and dazzlers plus the Russians own Infantry Teams hunting Ukrainian AT Teams.
In fact we are seeing UkA SOF in the rear zones primarily using the ole RPG series and Soviet ATGMs which are easier for them to source as they can capture the RuA's own stock to replenish.
Western Weapons are more propaganda hype than their actual impact which is minimal at best and like the TOWs in Syria, over blown in their actual operational impact in the fighting.
That is something I noticed as well, the Ukrainians seem to love posturing with them, but the export anti-tank missiles they make for their own use appear to be doing most of the work.
I had assumed they were just reselling them, but the Russians captured decent amounts of NLAWS and Javelins.
Chiron
Well-known member
The other thing is:
A hit doesn't means success. We have multiple videos from Syria of TOWs hitting Syrian Tanks and not destroying them despite impressive explosions. Then later on we see the photos from the Syrian side showing the tank intact, damaged with ERA and optics needing fixes, but still in the fight.
Tankograd has an article on the protection of the T-72 series.
Seems like there's been a turn of events:
www.business-standard.com
I wonder if Zelensky is trying to forestall the final assault or if he's signaling to Moscow that he's willing to negotiate. If it's the latter, it might be that the truth of the situation has finally sunk in and he's willing to make terms with Moscow. Probably in return for sparing him and his administration.
If that happens, Biden and many Western leaders are going to look really, really stupid. And Russia will have lots and lots of NATO weapon systems (and Ukrainian-Western trained officers) they can now draw upon.
Russia-Ukraine war: Zelenskyy says no longer interested in NATO membership
Ukraine President also says he is open to talks on two key breakaway domains of Donetsk and Lugansk, which Moscow insists are independent republics
I wonder if Zelensky is trying to forestall the final assault or if he's signaling to Moscow that he's willing to negotiate. If it's the latter, it might be that the truth of the situation has finally sunk in and he's willing to make terms with Moscow. Probably in return for sparing him and his administration.
If that happens, Biden and many Western leaders are going to look really, really stupid. And Russia will have lots and lots of NATO weapon systems (and Ukrainian-Western trained officers) they can now draw upon.
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Accountant
The news claimed that some 5000 Ukrainians and 1700 foreign students managed to get out of Sumi today. What are the chances that 99% of foreign students are African and Mid East males on the way westward?
Floridaman
Well-known member
Pretty low the students were being mentioned as mostly Indian and Chinese, with China crowing that it proves they are respected.
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Accountant
So it's actual students of the Sumi University, should have figured that the quasi universities are mostly in the western part of the country, closer to EU border.