Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

LindyAF

Well-known member
Does Sidious want Vader to be a true Sith apprentice who will one day surpass, usurp, and kill him or is he merely looking for an easily controllable tool who is broken in such a way that he's fundamentally incapable of doing so? Both Disney canon and Legends IMO indicate either one at different times.

Which better fits the character and is more compelling?
 
Does Sidious want Vader to be a true Sith apprentice who will one day surpass, usurp, and kill him or is he merely looking for an easily controllable tool who is broken in such a way that he's fundamentally incapable of doing so? Both Disney canon and Legends IMO indicate either one at different times.

Which better fits the character and is more compelling?


As much as I think Sidious viewing Vader as a legit friend and succesor would have been cooler, givin his first and most prominent apperance (ROTJ) I'm going for the later giving how quickly Sidious was to encourage luke to kill Vader and take his place.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
As much as I think Sidious viewing Vader as a legit friend and succesor would have been cooler, givin his first and most prominent apperance (ROTJ) I'm going for the later giving how quickly Sidious was to encourage luke to kill Vader and take his place.

While I think that does indicate Sidious didn't view Vader as a friend, I actually think that's more in character with him viewing Vader as a Sith Apprentice rather than a tool or trophy. To most Sith, encouraging someone to kill their apprentice and take his place is perfectly reasonable, because the apprentice should face difficult and lethal tests in order to prove themselves worthy. And if the apprentice fails, then their killer has proven themselves the worthier apprentice. If Sidious wanted a true apprentice and successor he might even have come to view Vader as a disappointment, given that his crippling left him (at least in Legends) unable to reach his full potential and that he never made a serious effort to kill Sidious, and sought his replacement.

On the other hand, if Sidious views Vader as a tool or trophy, he might be more hesitant to replace a very well made tool and trophy with someone who he is less sure of and might be less controllable.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
Essentially, Vader is a terrible Sith Apprentice but a very good attack dog and trophy of Sidious' destruction of the Jedi. The big question is... did Sidious want that or not?
 

DarthOne

☦️
Essentially, Vader is a terrible Sith Apprentice but a very good attack dog and trophy of Sidious' destruction of the Jedi. The big question is... did Sidious want that or not?

As far as Legends was concerned, Palpatine never considered any of his Apprentices as potential successors. They were disposable pawns, while Sidious would go on to be an immortal Dark-side God-Emperor. Because as much as Dark Empire gets flak, it did have some good ideas to it, even if I would have gone with the idea that Timothy Zahn 'suggested' through Mara Jade in the Thrawn Duology, that the 'reborn Emperor' was an insane clone (or clones) with delusions of grandeur.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
Does Sidious want Vader to be a true Sith apprentice who will one day surpass, usurp, and kill him or is he merely looking for an easily controllable tool who is broken in such a way that he's fundamentally incapable of doing so? Both Disney canon and Legends IMO indicate either one at different times.

Which better fits the character and is more compelling?
Sidious wanted to live forever (Byss cloning center and related stuff).

Darth Vader was the same thing to Sidious as Darth Maul. His personal attack dog that he could sic on whatever target he felt like.

As much as I think Sidious viewing Vader as a legit friend and succesor would have been cooler, givin his first and most prominent apperance (ROTJ) I'm going for the later giving how quickly Sidious was to encourage luke to kill Vader and take his place.
This was initially true, but everything changed after the Mustafar duel and Vader's life-threatening injuries.

Sidious could have easily given Anakin the same kind of prosthetics that General Grievous got but he didn't.

Before Mustafar, Anakin could and probably would kill Palps and become Sith Lord. Afterwards, Sidious saw an opportunity he couldn't afford to lose. He could keep the Chosen One around in a suit that limited his abilities to the point that he was still able to destroy his (Palp's) enemies but he was weak enough that he didn't pose a threat to Sidious himself (the suit's vulnerability to Force Lightning).

While I think that does indicate Sidious didn't view Vader as a friend, I actually think that's more in character with him viewing Vader as a Sith Apprentice rather than a tool or trophy. To most Sith, encouraging someone to kill their apprentice and take his place is perfectly reasonable, because the apprentice should face difficult and lethal tests in order to prove themselves worthy. And if the apprentice fails, then their killer has proven themselves the worthier apprentice. If Sidious wanted a true apprentice and successor he might even have come to view Vader as a disappointment, given that his crippling left him (at least in Legends) unable to reach his full potential and that he never made a serious effort to kill Sidious, and sought his replacement.

On the other hand, if Sidious views Vader as a tool or trophy, he might be more hesitant to replace a very well made tool and trophy with someone who he is less sure of and might be less controllable.
Very true.

Essentially, Vader is a terrible Sith Apprentice but a very good attack dog and trophy of Sidious' destruction of the Jedi. The big question is... did Sidious want that or not?
Like I said before, pre-Mustafar and post-Mustafar.

Sidious was forced to change his plans after Anakin got seriously BBQed on Mustafar.

That's why he went to Mustafar personally after Obi-Wan chopped off Anakin's legs and left him for dead.

As far as Legends was concerned, Palpatine never considered any of his Apprentices as potential successors. They were disposable pawns, while Sidious would go on to be an immortal Dark-side God-Emperor. Because as much as Dark Empire gets flak, it did have some good ideas to it, even if I would have gone with the idea that Timothy Zahn 'suggested' through Mara Jade in the Thrawn Duology, that the 'reborn Emperor' was an insane clone (or clones) with delusions of grandeur.
Very true.

Palapatine wanted to become the next Vitiate.

And just like Vitiate, he got yeeted into the void, screaming for his life.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
This was initially true, but everything changed after the Mustafar duel and Vader's life-threatening injuries.

Sidious could have easily given Anakin the same kind of prosthetics that General Grievous got but he didn't.

Before Mustafar, Anakin could and probably would kill Palps and become Sith Lord. Afterwards, Sidious saw an opportunity he couldn't afford to lose. He could keep the Chosen One around in a suit that limited his abilities to the point that he was still able to destroy his (Palp's) enemies but he was weak enough that he didn't pose a threat to Sidious himself (the suit's vulnerability to Force Lightning).

At least in Legends... he kinda did. The Droid who rebuilds Vader is the same one who did Grievous, and the tech is the same (although by Vader's time it's now obsolete, making this more complicated). However, Grievous was not force sensitive, so him having most of his body replaced didn't limit him in Legends the same way it does Vader.

The whole "the suit is vulnerable to force lightening thing" is a silly bit of lore, since we see force lightening absolutely wreck both Luke and unsuited Anakin whereas Vader takes it like champ. Even the people we see not instantly incapacitated by force lightening (Mace and Yoda) are clearly using some method of countering it, rather than just tanking it. (Also side note but I vastly prefer to interpret Mace's (and in Disney, Rey's) ability to deflect force lightening as a force technique made possible / easier than Yoda's by the use of a lightsaber, not just a matter of holding a lightsaber in the way, although this isn't really relevant to the point.)

IMO there isn't an a "true" answer to my question, since I think different writers assumed different things. If there was 100% coordination, I think they would have decided that Sidious should view Vader as merely a tool, rather than an apprentice, but I don't think this had been decided at the time of the movies - hence you get him saying stuff in ROTS that Vader will be more powerful than both Yoda and him like that's not a bad thing. I think Sidious considering Vader a tool fits the character and themes better, whereas him considering Vader an apprentice fits the actual events better.
 
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Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
Dooku, Kenobi, Mace and Yoda would all hold up to the old masters but it's because they literally trained themselves in the old styles. Dooku openly advocated for going back to basics especially with the impending return of the Sith, but he was brushed off.

That's the irony, isn't it? Mace and Yoda, as the greatest Jedi of the post-Ruusan Order, while also holding the top posts* in the entire Order, trained themselves in the ways of the pre-Ruusan Order...and yet staunchly upheld the post-Ruusan standard for the rest of the Order. In other words, they should have seen how...fallen, the Order was, and yet they refused to do anything about it.

*Mace was the Master of the Order, while Yoda was the Grand Master.

Essentially, Vader is a terrible Sith Apprentice but a very good attack dog and trophy of Sidious' destruction of the Jedi. The big question is... did Sidious want that or not?

In the EU, as others have pointed out, that was all he was ever meant to be.

In Disney, though...this is actually one of the better changes made by Disney. That is, Sidious treated him as an actual apprentice, with Vader's lack of ambition actually annoying the Emperor. The Emperor even called him out on it in a very backhanded way, after the Battle of Yavin IV. When Vader insisted on still being the Chosen One, Sidious Force Choked him while mocking that that way of thinking shows he's still a slave, clinging to his chains instead of thinking of breaking them like a Sith ought to do. Slave to the Jedi, slave to the Force, slave to Sidious, leading to Sidious' contempt.

Vader's suit was actually top of the line at the very end of the Clone Wars, and was only outdated by the time of the films because Vader refused to upgrade it. Hell, Sidious explicitly told Vader not to see it as a prison, but as a hurdle to be overcome, and even encouraged him to upgrade his suit as he pleased. That Vader did not speaks more about Vader than it did about the Emperor.

But as shown in comics' climax, when Vader's attempt to build a power base gets outed by Aphra to the Emperor, the Emperor actually just takes it in stride, and even even congratulates Vader. Vader had broken the next link in his chains, and was finally acting like a proper Sith Apprentice. Now, all he has to do is kill Aphra as a test of loyalty, if framed as a 'gift' from the Emperor, and everything was dandy.

Disney Sidious wouldn't have minded if Vader killed him and took his place. Disappointing, perhaps, but if Vader can overcome all his countermeasures and contingencies and become Dark Lord of the Sith...well, that is simply the Way of the Sith. The Master has become redundant, and so must be replaced by his Apprentice, who becomes the new Master, as mandated by the Rule of Two as set forth by Darth Bane.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
Am I the only one who doesn't much care for the "rule of two"?

It was an EU thing made up to replicate the Sidious-Vader dynamic with other Siths in prequels. When the "Sith were almost completely wiped out in an ancient war with the Jedi" thing was created, it was used to explain why the Jedi didn't know that the Sith philosophy still existed.

Personally it never made sense to me as a philosophy that could have survived underground for thousands of years. Going by the films I always felt that it was mainly just Palpatine being really paranoid and a control freak.
 

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
Am I the only one who doesn't much care for the "rule of two"?

After KOTOR, KOTOR 2, and SWTOR...no, you're not the only one. Too limiting, TBH, when the whole ethos of the Sith is to break any limits they find on themselves. I imagine Lord Scourge would unfavorably compare the Banite Sith to Vitiate's hand, with how they explicitly limit themselves to just two Sith at one time. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if the Old/True Sith as a whole denounced the Banites as heretics, Sith only in name.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
My headcanon is that the Rule of Two de facto enforced a clear hierarchy and a fairly small number limitation, but in practice rarely only two. Because there'd be only two Official Dark Lords of the Sith, the Master and the Apprentice, but then there'd also be the secret apprentice the Apprentice is training to help him off the Master. And the other secret apprentices the Master is training to test the Apprentice and by seeing if they can kill him and take his place. And the other secret apprentices of the Apprentice who he's training to test his main secret apprentice. And the secret apprentice the Apprentice's apprentice is training in order to help them kill the Apprentice and take his place...
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
I like to imagine there are actually dozens to hundreds of Sith across the galaxy. Now and then a force-sensitive shmuck comes across a Sith Holocron and gets some training, then establishes his/her own Sith line in secret. Lots of them eat a lightsaber when they get cocky and think a few simple tricks make them a match for a Jedi. Others establish themselves as crime lords and see a lot of success as underworld kingpins. For the failures, the holocron most often winds up in some pawnshop sold as a paperweight or executive toy, as most of the galaxy has no idea what a Sith holocron looks like. It may go a hundred years before it passes through the hands of another force-sensitive and starts over. For the successes the holocron may go on to establish a line of apprentices and groom them according to that particular Sith's own manias. Many of the shmucks never make it to an apprentice but once in a while one does and establishes a new line of Sith lords hiding out in some corner of the galaxy, passing on their secrets and taking their heresies in interestingly weird directions over time.

It makes the galaxy a more varied place with room for adventures outside the normal channels.
 

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
I like to imagine there are actually dozens to hundreds of Sith across the galaxy. Now and then a force-sensitive shmuck comes across a Sith Holocron and gets some training, then establishes his/her own Sith line in secret. Lots of them eat a lightsaber when they get cocky and think a few simple tricks make them a match for a Jedi. Others establish themselves as crime lords and see a lot of success as underworld kingpins. For the failures, the holocron most often winds up in some pawnshop sold as a paperweight or executive toy, as most of the galaxy has no idea what a Sith holocron looks like. It may go a hundred years before it passes through the hands of another force-sensitive and starts over. For the successes the holocron may go on to establish a line of apprentices and groom them according to that particular Sith's own manias. Many of the shmucks never make it to an apprentice but once in a while one does and establishes a new line of Sith lords hiding out in some corner of the galaxy, passing on their secrets and taking their heresies in interestingly weird directions over time.

It makes the galaxy a more varied place with room for adventures outside the normal channels.

This actually makes sense, considering how...fractured, the Sith had become after the Old Sith Empire fell sometime between 3000 and 2000 BBY. Even more so, considering the sheer lack of cultural inertia and actual historical precedent the 'New' Sith had compared to the Old/True Sith.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
I like to imagine there are actually dozens to hundreds of Sith across the galaxy. Now and then a force-sensitive shmuck comes across a Sith Holocron and gets some training, then establishes his/her own Sith line in secret. Lots of them eat a lightsaber when they get cocky and think a few simple tricks make them a match for a Jedi. Others establish themselves as crime lords and see a lot of success as underworld kingpins. For the failures, the holocron most often winds up in some pawnshop sold as a paperweight or executive toy, as most of the galaxy has no idea what a Sith holocron looks like. It may go a hundred years before it passes through the hands of another force-sensitive and starts over. For the successes the holocron may go on to establish a line of apprentices and groom them according to that particular Sith's own manias. Many of the shmucks never make it to an apprentice but once in a while one does and establishes a new line of Sith lords hiding out in some corner of the galaxy, passing on their secrets and taking their heresies in interestingly weird directions over time.

It makes the galaxy a more varied place with room for adventures outside the normal channels.

You know what would be hilarious? If Plagueis and Sidious weren't even from the actual line of Bane, someone just picked up one of the actual Banite Sith's holocrons and the details got obscured over time. Now I'm picturing the actual Heir of Bane thinking "yes, yesssss, I have infiltrated the republic undetected and been elected to the Senate, the Grand Plan in proceeding apace. Alright, it's my first senate session, and an emergency session at that! I wonder what the Chancellor called the session for..."

"In order to ensure the security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized..."

"... shit"
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
Am I the only one who doesn't much care for the "rule of two"?
It's the stupidest thing the Sith have ever created.

Put all of your hope in 2 eggs and then shove them inside the same basket.

I'm surprised that the Banite Sith didn't destroy themselves, like when an apprentice tried to kill his master and succeeds, but is mortally wounded at the same time and succumbs to their wounds before they can get medical help.
 

Buba

A total creep
It's the stupidest thing the Sith have ever created.

Put all of your hope in 2 eggs and then shove them inside the same basket.

I'm surprised that the Banite Sith didn't destroy themselves, like when an apprentice tried to kill his master and succeeds, but is mortally wounded at the same time and succumbs to their wounds before they can get medical help.
This lore stupidity and non-extinction of the Sith is explained by the galaxy being full of sith holocrons laying about, waiting to teach wannabe siths (I'm looking at you, Darth Emo!) about the Evul! and Dark! and Edgy! and - have I mentioned Dark! and Evul! ? - ideology.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
My headcanon is that the Rule of Two de facto enforced a clear hierarchy and a fairly small number limitation, but in practice rarely only two. Because there'd be only two Official Dark Lords of the Sith, the Master and the Apprentice, but then there'd also be the secret apprentice the Apprentice is training to help him off the Master. And the other secret apprentices the Master is training to test the Apprentice and by seeing if they can kill him and take his place. And the other secret apprentices of the Apprentice who he's training to test his main secret apprentice. And the secret apprentice the Apprentice's apprentice is training in order to help them kill the Apprentice and take his place...
Palpatine openly broke the rule after he became Emperor with his numerous Dark Side adepts.

Vader himself had many apprentices over the years. Starkiller, Lumiya, and Kharys to name a few.

Come to think of it...the Old/True Sith actually did denounce the Banites. Well, Marka Ragnos did, when Plagueis visited Korriban.
Every Sith that goes to Korriban for wisdom and advice gets the same treatment.

Darth Krayt got his ass beat and was then laughed out the room by the ghosts of Darth Nihilus, Darth Bane, and Darth Anddedu when he sought their wisdom on Korriban by activating their holocrons.

I like to imagine there are actually dozens to hundreds of Sith across the galaxy. Now and then a force-sensitive shmuck comes across a Sith Holocron and gets some training, then establishes his/her own Sith line in secret. Lots of them eat a lightsaber when they get cocky and think a few simple tricks make them a match for a Jedi.
This is actually true in Legends, where there were far more dark sider groups.

But I wouldn't necessarily call them Sith.

Except the Sorcerers of Tund, because they're literally the last Sith Purebloods.

Others establish themselves as crime lords and see a lot of success as underworld kingpins.
Also happened in Legends, but not as Sith.

Force-sensitives just seem to have it easier than others in terms of excelling at certain things. But they also then to die quick.

Bold or Old, never both.

For the failures, the holocron most often winds up in some pawnshop sold as a paperweight or executive toy, as most of the galaxy has no idea what a Sith holocron looks like. It may go a hundred years before it passes through the hands of another force-sensitive and starts over. For the successes the holocron may go on to establish a line of apprentices and groom them according to that particular Sith's own manias.
This is actually canon in Legends as well.

Ever wonder how Jango Fett was chosen to be the prime clone?

Search up "Komari Vosa".

Many of the shmucks never make it to an apprentice but once in a while one does and establishes a new line of Sith lords hiding out in some corner of the galaxy, passing on their secrets and taking their heresies in interestingly weird directions over time.
That literally the origins of the One Sith under Krayt.

Hiding out on Korriban, waiting for Lumiya and Caedus to screw up and die before revealing themselves to the greater galaxy once the time was right.

It makes the galaxy a more varied place with room for adventures outside the normal channels.
Which is why Legends is over 9000 times superior to Disney's Rat Wars.

This lore stupidity and non-extinction of the Sith is explained by the galaxy being full of sith holocrons laying about, waiting to teach wannabe siths (I'm looking at you, Darth Emo!) about the Evul! and Dark! and Edgy! and - have I mentioned Dark! and Evul! ? - ideology.
Actually, many Sith were once Jedi like the Original Sith, in pursuit of more knowledge and power rather than dark and edgy stuff.

Dooku's Dark Acotyles were all former Jedi. And there were a surprising number of Jedi defectors during the war as well. Pong Krell, an unnamed Jedi Padawan shown in the series "Darth Vader and the Ghost Prison", Sora Bulq, etc.

Those that have seen the light and grown disgusted with it are the best recruits for the darkness. They already know how to use the Force, lightsabers, and other Force related stuff.

The most emo Sith I have ever seen comes to Disney Rat Wars canon. So edgy even the Sith distance themselves from him.

Search him up: Darth Momin
 

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