Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
Star Wars is done.

Kathleen Kennedy being forced out means nothing.

Filoni and Favreau are actually part of the reason why Star Wars turned to shit.

Their 2008 Clone Wars is vastly inferior to the 2003 Tartakovsky Clone Wars in so many ways.

The franchise has no future in my eyes.

As consolation, at least there's decades upon decades of EU games, novels, and comics for me to go through, many of which are actively being modded and worked on like "Empire at War"
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
The original Clone Wars cartoon was pretty decent. Best part was Grevious ROFLstomping through Clone Troopers and Jedi. The one and only time he ever really felt terrifying. In 3D Clone Wars he's treated as a joke.

The 3D CGI Clone Wars is a mixed bag. There are some legit great arcs, but then there is a lot meh, and there are a few stinkers. Ahoska is downright intolerable during the first half of the show, and even during the second half she was "meh" at best. Never got the excitement for her coming back in Disney Star Wars. Anakin is okay; he's not very whiny like in Attack of the Clones and feels more like a man, like someone who was actually a warrior, but I never really liked his cocky attitude. Obi-Wan pulls it off amazingly well. I also liked how we got to follow around other characters in the Star Wars universe, like the other Jedi, or Clone Troopers, or sometimes the bad guys like Ventress or Grievous.

I have a mixed opinion on the presentation of the war in Clone Wars. Unlike war anime like Gundam or Legend of the Galactic Heroes, there never really seemed to be any sort of "progress" in the war effort. It's not like we ever get a map showing us the road to taking the CIS capital worlds. It's not like the Republic winning a battle visibly brings us closer to ending the war. Each arc just has us fighting out on some random planet, and then after the arc is over that planet is forgotten. We have no idea how Anakin flying a bomber wing past space whales to blow up a CIS station actually progressed the war effort in any meaningful way.

Meanwhile, in LoGH we are given a map detailing the road from the Empire's capital to the Federation's capital: it's only like a dozen star system jumps. So each battle has a huge impact on the narrative, because eventually by the end of the show one side is going to be knocking at the other side's capital city and it's going to be the end. The 3D Clone Wars show is kinda stuck in that it can't actually end the war (since that happened in RotS). I think they could've framed it as the Republic pushing to the CIS capitals across the whole show, and then at the end "okay, we've pushed all the way to near the CIS capital worlds. Soon, we shall win! Wait, one of the CIS' last surviving fleets has launched a last ditch assault on Courscant and took the Emperor hostage?"

Another thing too, is that when I watched the films, I thought that the Clone Wars were humongous. As in, hundreds of millions of clone soldiers vs hundreds of millions (possibly billions, maybe tens of billions) of droids. I mean, that's why the Clone and Droid armies were created in the first place, right? To provide manpower for an intergalactic war and forces to occupy entire planets and star systems? But in the show, you hardly ever see more than maybe 4 or 6 Venators in battle, and only like 50 to 100 clone troopers onscreen at once. Maybe this was done because it would take too long to render tens of thousands of clone troopers and droids engaged in a planetary war per episode on a TV budget. LoGH really felt like it depicted a galactic war, with thousands of ships in every engagement.

Darth Maul was terrifying but bringing him back really undermined the sacrifices involved to defeat him in TPM, and really makes Star Wars feel like it suffers from comic book syndrome.
 
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Navarro

Well-known member
I honestly feel that the Vietnam analog was just a claim that was tacked on after the fact, rather like so many other claims, like that the trilogy is just the first movie Lucas wrote, and all he did was split it into three parts, or that Vader was always intended to be Luke's father, or that Luke and Leia were always intended to be siblings, or that Lucas had always planned the prequels to be what they were even back in the '70s.

My own opinion is that Lucas is too intellectually incoherent to be a propagandist, so he's probably just saying it for Hollywood cred.
 

Val the Moofia Boss

Well-known member
My own opinion is that Lucas is too intellectually incoherent to be a propagandist, so he's probably just saying it for Hollywood cred.

That seems to be the case. There is a book called "The Secret History of Star Wars", which was written by a fan who who dug up every interview and early draft he could find to figure out how George's thought process changed over time. In the book, the author thoroughly debunks the claims Lucas said later on. He pointed out that when the original film released, Lucas only really viewed it as a fun fluff film, not anything supposed to be super serious. He didn't even attend the premier of the film; he was on a beach vacation when he got a phone call that his movie was a smash hit, and he shrugged. And George admitted he was only really producing TES and RotJ because he wanted money to fund the projects he was really interested in.

The author posited that when Star Wars became a smash, cultural phenomena, the cultural elite/intelligentsia didn't want to admit that a mere fluff serial was so popular, so they started pushing the narrative that Star Wars was deliberately based off of Campbell's "the Hero's Journey" idea, which was relatively unknown at the time and only got attention due to the association with Star Wars. Lucas might have gone along with it because he was embarrassed by Star Wars becoming the thing he was known for. Lucas even admitted in an interview that the parallels were, and research shows he probably never even knew of Campbell prior to the cultural elite's claims that he based Star Wars off of it.

As for the Vietnam thing, I doubt it was really any deliberate messaging. By that point, "the bad guys are the ones with the dull grey tech, fighting the small little guerrillas with their more primitive weapons but their true spirit and individuality" had become a pretty ingrained in Western pop culture. Same reason why every depiction of vast military might and armies mimics Triumph of the Will, intentionally or not. It's because the imagery and techniques work.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
Best part was Grevious ROFLstomping through Clone Troopers and Jedi. The one and only time he ever really felt terrifying. In 3D Clone Wars he's treated as a joke.

Yeah, I think the issue was that the 3D Clone Wars picked him to be their recurring Saturday morning cartoon villain because of the name recognition and distinctive look, which meant that he showed up to get beat a lot. Didn't help that he was the most prominent villain before the show really found it's legs. I think the other villains come off a lot better though.

I have a mixed opinion on the presentation of the war in Clone Wars. Unlike war anime like Gundam or Legend of the Galactic Heroes, there never really seemed to be any sort of "progress" in the war effort. It's not like we ever get a map showing us the road to taking the CIS capital worlds. It's not like the Republic winning a battle visibly brings us closer to ending the war. Each arc just has us fighting out on some random planet, and then after the arc is over that planet is forgotten. We have no idea how Anakin flying a bomber wing past space whales to blow up a CIS station actually progressed the war effort in any meaningful way.

I honestly kind of felt like this was a feature. A central part of the whole Clone Wars imo is that the whole thing is essentially a scam - Palpatine's running both sides and the whole point is so he can consolidate power in the Republic. Even the guy directly in charge of the Separatists / CIS, Dooku, knows the conflict is essentially fake and isn't trying to win. So it makes sense that the whole conflict feels pretty vague and up in the air - Palpatine and Dooku are probably engineering constant problems the Jedi have to deal with Right Now while carefully making sure that neither side's actual ability to wage war is compromised.

Darth Maul was terrifying but bringing him back really undermined the sacrifices involved to defeat him in TPM, and really makes Star Wars feel like it suffers from comic book syndrome.

Definitely agree here.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Darth Maul was terrifying but bringing him back really undermined the sacrifices involved to defeat him in TPM, and really makes Star Wars feel like it suffers from comic book syndrome.

This is true, and yet his final duel with Obi-Wan on Tatooine is one of the most amazing sequences in the entire canon in terms of coming full circle and finding closure.

That and more broadly, Maul's arc in Clone Wars and Rebels ultimately brought a shocking amount of character development to a character that was previously little more than a two dimensional killer.
 

DarthOne

☦️
This is true, and yet his final duel with Obi-Wan on Tatooine is one of the most amazing sequences in the entire canon in terms of coming full circle and finding closure.

That and more broadly, Maul's arc in Clone Wars and Rebels ultimately brought a shocking amount of character development to a character that was previously little more than a two-dimensional killer.
That was pretty much Maul's role by intention by Sidious in pre-TCW canon. He was an assassin that Sidious didn't have to worry about getting backstabbed from. And I'd argue that Maul did have personality and character back then, even if it was a bit flat.
 

DarthOne

☦️
The Tartakovsky series is artistically awesome, but is best thought of -- even outside of Disney canon -- as professional fanfiction. It's Jedi-wank beyond belief and does not fit the aesthetic, themes, or anything of Star Wars at all.
You say that the Jedi and Sith outside of that didn't do equally astounding feats in Legends. Or that we don't see Rey and Disney-Wars characters doing stuff like that in the new films and canon.

Never mind that pretty much EVERYONE was over-the-top by OT feat standards in Tartakovsky's Clone Wars.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
You say that the Jedi and Sith outside of that didn't do equally astounding feats in Legends. Or that we don't see Rey and Disney-Wars characters doing stuff like that in the new films and canon.

Never mind that pretty much EVERYONE was over-the-top by OT feat standards in Tartakovsky's Clone Wars.

The power creep in Legends is bad though. The stuff you're talking about in the Disney canon are all parts that makes it worse. In TFA, and honestly in TLJ with the exception of one scene, the force had a feel and power that was much more consistent with the OT, and that was one of the better parts of them. Haven't seen TROS and I'm not planning to, so I can't 100% speak for that, but to a large extent from what I've heard the force power creep there was not something people liked about the film.
 

DarthOne

☦️
The power creep in Legends is bad though. The stuff you're talking about in the Disney canon are all parts that makes it worse. In TFA, and honestly in TLJ with the exception of one scene, the force had a feel and power that was much more consistent with the OT, and that was one of the better parts of them. Haven't seen TROS and I'm not planning to, so I can't 100% speak for that, but to a large extent from what I've heard the force power creep there was not something people liked about the film.

Never said I necessarily liked all the power creep that went on in SW, just argued that it was consistent with Tartakovsky's Clone Wars. And even the most OP scenes in that aren't anywhere close to Dark Empire Palpatine's Force Storms or Exar Kun making a star go supernova.
 

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
@Jaenera Targaryen have you seen the newest story on SWTOR involving the mandos and basically a civil war?

It is an interesting take.

Spirit of Vengeance II, yes, I have played it. Gameplay-wise, it's fucking annoying, with mobs around every corner, and who somehow end up harder to kill than the actual bosses. Story-wise, it's a very interesting twist to the story, especially since it seems to tie with the background, in particular over how decades in the past, the late Mandalore the Vindicated also had to put up with revolting Mandos who wanted to ally with the Republic the way Canderous Ordo aka Mandalore the Preserver did during the Jedi Civil War and the Jedi Purge that followed.

Now history seems to be repeating itself, with Kol seeming to follow in Jicoln Cadera's footsteps, and revolting against Mandalore the Avenger's alliance with the Sith.

...well, that last part's only because I play Imperial characters.

Sorry, I tried my hand with Republic characters a couple of times, but I couldn't put up with it. The storylines are just so dull, and so many of the Republic NPCs are just so fucking annoying or outright boring. Especially on Taris, where you have to put up with Saresh, and who's already a dictator in the making even before becoming Supreme Chancellor.

Anyway...Spirit of Vengeance II has been out for months now, though. AFAIK, the most recent story update is Dark Descent, with Darth Malgus looking like he's making for another play at power. It also makes quite the reference to KOTOR, involving a visit to the ruined Jedi Enclave on Dantooine, and passing through the chamber where the Jedi did their experiments on mind control and other such techniques. Interestingly, if you're an Imperial, Darth Rivix, Darth Krovos, and if your character is a Sith, you'll all sense the place is simmering with the Dark Side, thanks to the Jedi's experiments. Both Rivix and Krovos actually are impressed the Jedi would go that far.

"I didn't think they had it in them."
- Darth Krovos
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Spirit of Vengeance II, yes, I have played it. Gameplay-wise, it's fucking annoying, with mobs around every corner, and who somehow end up harder to kill than the actual bosses. Story-wise, it's a very interesting twist to the story, especially since it seems to tie with the background, in particular over how decades in the past, the late Mandalore the Vindicated also had to put up with revolting Mandos who wanted to ally with the Republic the way Canderous Ordo aka Mandalore the Preserver did during the Jedi Civil War and the Jedi Purge that followed.

Now history seems to be repeating itself, with Kol seeming to follow in Jicoln Cadera's footsteps, and revolting against Mandalore the Avenger's alliance with the Sith.

...well, that last part's only because I play Imperial characters.

Sorry, I tried my hand with Republic characters a couple of times, but I couldn't put up with it. The storylines are just so dull, and so many of the Republic NPCs are just so fucking annoying or outright boring. Especially on Taris, where you have to put up with Saresh, and who's already a dictator in the making even before becoming Supreme Chancellor.

Anyway...Spirit of Vengeance II has been out for months now, though. AFAIK, the most recent story update is Dark Descent, with Darth Malgus looking like he's making for another play at power. It also makes quite the reference to KOTOR, involving a visit to the ruined Jedi Enclave on Dantooine, and passing through the chamber where the Jedi did their experiments on mind control and other such techniques. Interestingly, if you're an Imperial, Darth Rivix, Darth Krovos, and if your character is a Sith, you'll all sense the place is simmering with the Dark Side, thanks to the Jedi's experiments. Both Rivix and Krovos actually are impressed the Jedi would go that far.

"I didn't think they had it in them."
- Darth Krovos
My highest one is a Jedi knight. SO yeah.
The Jedi knight and smuggler are best Republic faction stories with Trooper up there Counseler is.....ughhhhhh I am saving that one fro last.

Form what I understand, the knight as the commander is the canon one. But yeah, it is interesting how much of TOR lore is being brought in. From the books and KOTOR etc.
 

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
My highest one is a Jedi knight. SO yeah.
The Jedi knight and smuggler are best Republic faction stories with Trooper up there Counseler is.....ughhhhhh I am saving that one fro last.

To each other their own. On the Imperial side, I'd rank the Sith Inquisitor and Bounty Hunter as the best class stories. The Sith Warrior is a bit generic, while the Imperial Agent requires patience and appreciation of...depth, and intrigue to truly enjoy. The antagonists in the Imperial Agent class story can get really...frustrating, but damn, when the buildup pays off, it is worth every teeth-grinding moment that came before.

Form what I understand, the knight as the commander is the canon one.

Technically yes, but Bioware deserves praise for making subtle changes to the dialog and other details to accommodate other classes before Republic and Imperial for the role. No matter what else they deserve criticism for, they certainly appreciate their customer base more than the rest of the people at Lucasfilm do.

But yeah, it is interesting how much of TOR lore is being brought in. From the books and KOTOR etc.

It's certainly good to see other KOTOR characters' legacies getting relevance in SWTOR. With Revan's role having ended at Echoes of Oblivion, it sure looks like it's Canderous' turn. That said, I'd love to see Meetra get more appearances, and more relevant ones at that, than her brief cameos in the Maelstrom FP and Echoes of Oblivion.

And of course, assuming they're both still alive, Satele and Theron practically embody Bastila's legacy.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
To each other their own. On the Imperial side, I'd rank the Sith Inquisitor and Bounty Hunter as the best class stories. The Sith Warrior is a bit generic, while the Imperial Agent requires patience and appreciation of...depth, and intrigue to truly enjoy. The antagonists in the Imperial Agent class story can get really...frustrating, but damn, when the buildup pays off, it is worth every teeth-grinding moment that came before.



Technically yes, but Bioware deserves praise for making subtle changes to the dialog and other details to accommodate other classes before Republic and Imperial for the role. No matter what else they deserve criticism for, they certainly appreciate their customer base more than the rest of the people at Lucasfilm do.



It's certainly good to see other KOTOR characters' legacies getting relevance in SWTOR. With Revan's role having ended at Echoes of Oblivion, it sure looks like it's Canderous' turn. That said, I'd love to see Meetra get more appearances, and more relevant ones at that, than her brief cameos in the Maelstrom FP and Echoes of Oblivion.

And of course, assuming they're both still alive, Satele and Theron practically embody Bastila's legacy.
I loved the bounty hunter story.
Forst of the imperial classes I did.

Bioware imporved from the base class stories that's for sure.

I doubt Meetra is still alive iirc. Thanks to echoes. Satele and Theron are both still alive last I checked.

Who is his father again?

Also, didn't the founder kf Havok squad end up dying? He was the same guy who charged to engage a fucking Sith lord.
 

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
I loved the bounty hunter story.
Forst of the imperial classes I did.

Short of the Star Cabal from the Imperial Agent class story, it also had a great final villain, in the form of Jun Seros. He's much more compelling than say...Darth Baras, who's probably the least interesting class antagonists from the Imperial side of the galaxy. He does have the most comedy potential, though, considering how fat he is.

The cake is a lie

There is only pie

Through pie I gain weight

Through weight I gain width

Through width my belts are broken

The force has nothing to do with it

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:

Bioware imporved from the base class stories that's for sure.

It says a lot about the rest of Lucasfilm when Bioware and its parent company EA are getting more credit from the fanbase than they are.

I doubt Meetra is still alive iirc. Thanks to echoes.

Much sad.

Satele and Theron are both still alive last I checked.

Depending on PC choices, Theron could die at the end of the Nathema Conspiracy FP.

Who is his father again?

Also, didn't the founder kf Havok squad end up dying? He was the same guy who charged to engage a fucking Sith lord.

They're the same guy, Supreme Commander Jace Malcolm. He dies if the PC sides with the Sith in the War on Iokath, trying to control the Six Gods. He might actually have succeeded too...except he was using a jury-rigged command throne, so the power surge killed him instead.

And yes, he charged Darth Malgus with nothing but a combat knife the first time, and the second time with a live grenade. He got his in-game scars from the latter. It really says a lot how...fallen, the Republic was by the time of the Clone Wars. Back then, they didn't need an army of Mando carbon copies, no, their homegrown troops were more than enough to put together an army worth calling an army.

The lore might call the post-Ruusan millennium of peace a 'golden age', but personally, I'd call it a gilded age instead. Both the Republic and the Jedi were nothing but pale shadows of what they once were. Hell, I'd actually paraphrase Darth Traya to describe the sheer difference between the Jedi of the Clone Wars and the Old Sith Wars.

"If you were to face an ancient Jedi Master in combat, you would learn that you are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters."
 
Short of the Star Cabal from the Imperial Agent class story, it also had a great final villain, in the form of Jun Seros. He's much more compelling than say...Darth Baras, who's probably the least interesting class antagonists from the Imperial side of the galaxy. He does have the most comedy potential, though, considering how fat he is.

The cake is a lie

There is only pie

Through pie I gain weight

Through weight I gain width

Through width my belts are broken

The force has nothing to do with it

:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:



It says a lot about the rest of Lucasfilm when Bioware and its parent company EA are getting more credit from the fanbase than they are.



Much sad.



Depending on PC choices, Theron could die at the end of the Nathema Conspiracy FP.



They're the same guy, Supreme Commander Jace Malcolm. He dies if the PC sides with the Sith in the War on Iokath, trying to control the Six Gods. He might actually have succeeded too...except he was using a jury-rigged command throne, so the power surge killed him instead.

And yes, he charged Darth Malgus with nothing but a combat knife the first time, and the second time with a live grenade. He got his in-game scars from the latter. It really says a lot how...fallen, the Republic was by the time of the Clone Wars. Back then, they didn't need an army of Mando carbon copies, no, their homegrown troops were more than enough to put together an army worth calling an army.

The lore might call the post-Ruusan millennium of peace a 'golden age', but personally, I'd call it a gilded age instead. Both the Republic and the Jedi were nothing but pale shadows of what they once were. Hell, I'd actually paraphrase Darth Traya to describe the sheer difference between the Jedi of the Clone Wars and the Old Sith Wars.

"If you were to face an ancient Jedi Master in combat, you would learn that you are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old masters."


Dooku, Kenobi, Mace and Yoda would all hold up to the old masters but it's because they literally trained themselves in the old styles. Dooku openly advocated for going back to basics especially with the impending return of the Sith, but he was brushed off.
 

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