Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
"For the failures, the holocron most often winds up in some pawnshop sold as a paperweight or executive toy, as most of the galaxy has no idea what a Sith holocron looks like. It may go a hundred years before it passes through the hands of another force-sensitive and starts over"

@Bear Ribs, thank you for giving me a new idea for my Star Wars Imperial Officer SI
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Sotnik
Am I the only one who doesn't much care for the "rule of two"?

I actually don't mind it at all.

It's semi-original and in the full context of Star Wars canon or Legends it's great to show the evolution of organizations across generations. Especially for one as a seemingly selfish as the Sith. I love how the Sith were a species and had vague Egyptian motifs and tribal basis, then an Evil Empire vibe as a counter to the Republic even and then went into Rule of Two for reasons and so on.

Star Wars is about The Force and it's Dark Side at its core so evolving the main groups makes it feel more vibrant. I like that the Republic and Jedi Order evolved or perhaps just changed as well with the times for better or worse.

Whether due to Ruusan Reforms or not, a millenia of general peace and prosperity for the Republic ain't nothing to scoff at as well.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
Actually, many Sith were once Jedi like the Original Sith, in pursuit of more knowledge and power rather than dark and edgy stuff.

Dooku's Dark Acotyles were all former Jedi. And there were a surprising number of Jedi defectors during the war as well. Pong Krell, an unnamed Jedi Padawan shown in the series "Darth Vader and the Ghost Prison", Sora Bulq, etc.

Yeah, but tbh the Dark Side in Star Wars is generally presented (outside SWTOR, arguably) as corruptive enough that this barely matters. A jedi turns in order to pursue knowledge or because they think they need it in order to defeat some terrible enemy etc... five minutes later they've teamed up with that enemy and are cackling while electrocuting random children.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
That was pretty much Maul's role by intention by Sidious in pre-TCW canon. He was an assassin that Sidious didn't have to worry about getting backstabbed from. And I'd argue that Maul did have personality and character back then, even if it was a bit flat.

Yes, but this is what's utterly fascinating about the Rebels take on Maul -- he's had enough time for introspection in retrospect to realize just how much Sidious was always using him. In many ways, at this point he's a tired old man who wants to rest, but at the same time, he's still a Dark Sider and peace is anathema to him. He's still absolutely driven by hate, even though he can also *see* how much it's destroyed him, and he hates that as much as he hates Sidious. In the end, Maul *almost* doesn't attack Obi-Wan on Tatooine. But he can't quite bring himself to let go the hate, and so dies.

That scene, as I said, is one of the most amazing moments in all of Star Wars, especially in the subtle details. When they're facing off with each other, Obi Wan starts in the same cautious center guard he used in his classic A New Hope appearance. He then very deliberately switches to the Soresu guard he used in the Clone Wars (the flashy one with his free hand pointing forward), back to center guard, then to the high shoulder guard he used back in the Phantom Menace. Maul then uses essentially the same attack sequence he used against Qui-Gon all those years ago in Phantom Menace, but Obi-Wan (despite being old and "pathetic") easily and lethally counters it. But Obi-Wan then holds Maul with genuine sadness as he collapses and dies; Maul's last words are asking if the child Obi-Wan is guarding is the Chosen One and Obi-Wan tells him yes, giving him a measure of peace and closure as he passes away knowing Sidious will be brought down in the end.

Rebels was overall much more of a kid-oriented series than Clone Wars, but it had moments like that which were incredibly deep.
 

DarthOne

☦️
Yes, but this is what's utterly fascinating about the Rebels take on Maul -- he's had enough time for introspection in retrospect to realize just how much Sidious was always using him. In many ways, at this point he's a tired old man who wants to rest, but at the same time, he's still a Dark Sider and peace is anathema to him. He's still absolutely driven by hate, even though he can also *see* how much it's destroyed him, and he hates that as much as he hates Sidious. In the end, Maul *almost* doesn't attack Obi-Wan on Tatooine. But he can't quite bring himself to let go the hate, and so dies.

That scene, as I said, is one of the most amazing moments in all of Star Wars, especially in the subtle details. When they're facing off with each other, Obi Wan starts in the same cautious center guard he used in his classic A New Hope appearance. He then very deliberately switches to the Soresu guard he used in the Clone Wars (the flashy one with his free hand pointing forward), back to center guard, then to the high shoulder guard he used back in the Phantom Menace. Maul then uses essentially the same attack sequence he used against Qui-Gon all those years ago in Phantom Menace, but Obi-Wan (despite being old and "pathetic") easily and lethally counters it. But Obi-Wan then holds Maul with genuine sadness as he collapses and dies; Maul's last words are asking if the child Obi-Wan is guarding is the Chosen One and Obi-Wan tells him yes, giving him a measure of peace and closure as he passes away knowing Sidious will be brought down in the end.

Rebels was overall much more of a kid-oriented series than Clone Wars, but it had moments like that which were incredibly deep.

Except Luke didn’t and it was really all down to Rey ‘All-the-Jedi’ Sue. Rather undermines the whole thing.

Plus that doesn’t change how much bringing Maul back made an utter mess of things. On top of everything else TCW did.

As for Rebels it’s boring, kiddy nonsense to the extreme.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
Except Luke didn’t and it was really all down to Rey ‘All-the-Jedi’ Sue. Rather undermines the whole thing.
Speaking about Luke and Rey reminds me of how Luke started his New Jedi Order in Legends.

He actually had several prospective apprentices at first but some were KIA, others went MIA and that really discouraged him (Luke was the equivalent of a Jedi Knight at Endor).

It was only later that he got the confidence to start his New Jedi Order.

And yet there are still people who call Luke an overpowered Marty Stu.

New Jedi Order

Plus that doesn’t change how much bringing Maul back made an utter mess of things. On top of everything else TCW did.
Mother Talzin is a joke compared to Gethzerion

Also, the Nightsisters arc in the Quinlan Vos series by Dark Horse is some of the best stuff I've ever seen.

As for Rebels it’s boring, kiddy nonsense to the extreme.
100% true.

Horrendous show, even worse than TCW.

And TCW is over 9000 times inferior to the 2003 Tartakovsky Clone Wars.
 

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
As for Rebels it’s boring, kiddy nonsense to the extreme.

Yeah, no kidding. I mean...way back when, I'd have said similar about the whole War on Iokath Arc for SWTOR, but these days...

...story-wise, it's still something of a mess, but the gameplay is just superb in hindsight. It builds up the suspense for the Gods From the Machine Operation. And anyone of the Six Gods makes for a more compelling antagonist than any from Rebels barring Grand Admiral Thrawn. And I dare to say Thrawn was wasted there, as they made him come off as a generic, Saturday cartoon villain.
 
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BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
Yeah, no kidding. I mean...way back when, I'd have said similar about the whole War on Iokath Arc for SWTOR, but these days...

...story-wise, it's still something of a mess, but the gameplay is just superb in hindsight. It builds up the suspense for the Gods From the Machine Operation. And anyone of the Six Gods makes for a more compelling antagonist in Rebels barring Grand Admiral Thrawn. And I dare to say Thrawn was wasted there, as they made him come off as a generic, Saturday cartoon villain.
Just like Grievous.

He went from Jedi killing terror machine in 2003 Clone Wars to this loser who keeps running away every time he screws up in 2008 TCW.
 

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
General Grievous, as he always will be in our hearts.


And Grievous wasn't even a bad person at the start.

He was just Qymaen jai Sheelal, a Kaleesh patriot fighting against evil Huk invaders that were massacring and enslaving his people with his girlfriend Ronderu lij Kummar.

And then she died and he went on a killing spree which ended up the Republic siding with the Huk even though they were the perpetrators of the whole war and Jedi defeating Grievous and his Izvoshra.

Which is why Grievous hated the Republic and Jedi the way he did.
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
And Grievous wasn't even a bad person at the start.

He was just Qymaen jai Sheelal, a Kaleesh patriot fighting against evil Huk invaders that were massacring and enslaving his people with his girlfriend Ronderu lij Kummar.

And then she died and he went on a killing spree which ended up the Republic siding with the Huk even though they were the perpetrators of the whole war and Jedi defeating Grievous and his Izvoshra.

Which is why Grievous hated the Republic and Jedi the way he did.
See, this kind of stuff is why the Republic deserved to go under.
 

DarthOne

☦️
See, this kind of stuff is why the Republic deserved to go under.
Eh, wouldn’t go quite that far. It certainly did need to clear house and deserved a good beating. Probably would have been better for the galaxy to have multiple galactic states instead of the one gigantic one. Less chance of stuff getting lost in committees and people have more impetus to shut down corruption, as now they have to compete against outsiders.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
More galactic states was definitely something Star Wars needed from a worldbuilding perspective tbh, to keep things interesting. Even back in the Old Republic era having only two with the Republic and Sith Empire feels scant. IMO this is why the Mandalorians get at much love as they do in the fandom - they add some much needed variety. Also just to have the states that do exist make sense - Star Wars often seems like it's copying things from IRL states without the needed interstate realities that are necessary for those things to occur.

Not sure why they didn't add them in the prequels.
 

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
It's because the Republic is an expansionist power that just happens to have very good PR, that's why. The Pius Dea Crusades solidified the Republic's hold over the Core Systems long before the Great Hyperspace War, and while that ideology was publicly discredited after the crusades' end, its legacy never really went away. The Sith Holocaust that followed the Great Hyperspace War removed the Republic's only real contender for control of the Rim, i.e. the Sith Empire, while the Mandalorians lacked the organization to decisively threaten the Republic.

Even in the post-Ruusan period, with a largely-disarmed Republic, the devastation of the New Sith Wars meant that the Republic's - or rather, the Core Systems' - soft power let them swallow up any entity on the Rim without needing hard power to back them up.

Only the Hutts managed to avoid getting swallowed up by the Republic, between their wealth and their ability to keep the Republic from getting a cassus belli on them.
 
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Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
And I dare to say Thrawn was wasted there, as they made him come off as a generic, Saturday cartoon villain.

Thrawn was just too big for Rebels. A Grand Admiral is second only to the Emperor himself in terms of the Imperial military, and can requisition vast forces whenever the hell he wants. Simply put if Thrawn was allowed to be competent as he was in his books, scooby doo and the gang would have been killed in his very first episode. That is why the Empire keeps being undermined and made into a joke throughout Rebels (Filoni has done the same to Battle Droids and now the Clones themselves in Bad Batch) because the writers cannot conceive of any other way in which their heroes can make funny quips and go "pew-pew" without being slaughtered.

Lazy, pathetic hack writing, and it honestly astonishes me that Filoni is held in as high regard as he is.

This is why you keep an eye on threat escalation, kiddies.

As for discussion about the Sith, I don't think they can ever truly go extinct simply because they are so widespread. The Banites were just one sect that became prominent. I wouldn't be shocked if there were holdouts in the unknown regions of both ancient Sith Empires. There's a lot of worlds to lie low on out there...
 

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
As for discussion about the Sith, I don't think they can ever truly go extinct simply because they are so widespread. The Banites were just one sect that became prominent. I wouldn't be shocked if there were holdouts in the unknown regions of both ancient Sith Empires. There's a lot of worlds to lie low on out there...

Well, in the EU there was the Lost Tribe of the Sith. Later on, the One Sith hid on Korriban, all the way to the time of Legacy.
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
Well, in the EU there was the Lost Tribe of the Sith. Later on, the One Sith hid on Korriban, all the way to the time of Legacy.

One thing I've always been interested in is perhaps one of these cults or groups, a sizable one hailing from the days of the ancient Sith empires, actually evolving their ideology. I mean sure, the Banites gave it some welly, but I mean more as in "easing off on the zealotry" and developing parts of their doctrine as many of our religions have done over the centuries. Perhaps this group would focus a little more on self mastery, so that the dark side itself doesn't become a chain to bind them. And when they break their chains, they must shatter each link to pieces before moving on to the next so as to make their mastery complete. They'd also be secretive as shit, even by Banite standards, mostly keeping to themselves so as to avoid the Jedi completing the Sith Holocaust.

By the time of the Clone Wars, this group would field some ridiculously proficient force users that wouldn't be far off from their ancient and esteemed lords. Whilst they have learned from their defeats and mistakes, becoming stronger (and in ways a better organisation), the Jedi have degenerated after a thousand years of victory parades.

On that topic, the Lost Tribe of Sith are the only true and rightful heirs to Korriban. The rest are copycats.
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member
Lazy, pathetic hack writing, and it honestly astonishes me that Filoni is held in as high regard as he is.

For my part, and as someone who is generally ok with the previous Filoni-shows (though I've not bothered subbing to D+ for Bad Batch) I'll admit that in a better timeline I probably wouldn't like Filoni. The fact is I've settled, and I'll admit that much. Post-Disney every single writer who's gotten to make a star wars movie or show has been a hack, and I've settled for cheering on the hack who appears to at least genuinely enjoy writing for the setting even if he's bad at it.
 

Jaenera Targaryen

Well-known member
On that topic, the Lost Tribe of Sith are the only true and rightful heirs to Korriban. The rest are copycats.

After the Old Sith Wars, at least. Exar Kun's Brotherhood of the Sith had legitimacy seeing as Marka Ragnos personally anointed Exar Kun as the Dark Lord of the Sith. There was also Darth Vitiate's reconstituted Sith Empire on Dromund Kaas, which actually is the same Sith Empire from the Great Hyperspace War, just relocated to uncharted space and actively working to avoid discovery by the Republic while building up its strength for over a thousand years.

I'd argue that Darth Krayt's One Sith also had legitimacy, as Darth Krayt had been anointed by Xoxaan, one of the earliest Sith Lords and a peer of Ajunta Pall, the first ever Dark Lord of the Sith. His renunciation by Darth Bane and Darth Nihilus doesn't count, as neither of them were True/Old Sith. Yes, even Darth Nihilus, considering he only fell to the Dark Side after getting caught in Meetra and Revan's shenanigans on Malachor V during the Mandalorian Wars. Darth Traya might have given herself the title of Darth, and did likewise for Darth Sion and Darth Nihilus, but I doubt their titles had legitimacy the way Darth Revan and Darth Malak had, having personally received them from Darth Vitiate himself. Darth Malak in particular was still held in high regard within the Old Sith Empire centuries after his death, with the in-game codices - presumably written from a Sith perspective - outright adding the adjective 'great' before his title and name.

Darth Andeddu's denouncing Darth Krayt is probably the biggest point against the latter, though.
 

LindyAF

Well-known member
With Rebels... it's for kids, and I don't really have a problem with some stuff in Star Wars being for kids. It's not like the Original Trilogy was exactly R rated.

The fundamental issue with Rebels IMO is that it puts too many Jedi (and prominent force sensitives in general) too close to the start of the OT. Like, the Force in the OT is rare and mysterious enough that people don't believe in it and view it as some ancient religion backed up by slight of hand. Not just outer Rim smugglers, but senior officers of the Imperial Military. They would be more of a presence, and better known, in the original trilogy if they had been not thought of as definitely not existing at the time. It makes no sense in the context of the movies for Ahsoka to be alive both through the entirety of the Galactic Civil War. Putting her on a bus doesn't help - if her character had been part of the universe during the time of the OT, she would have met Luke. The only way to fix that conflict with the OT would have been to move everything back in time (which would have been pretty trivial), and give the characters the Rogue One sendoff, which they could never do in a kids show. Although they could have shifted the timeline backward and then just given then done a Rogue One in some non kid focused medium.

Also, I think a broader issue with Disney-Wars is that the writers who were really into Star Wars are keen on re-canonizing things in a new context, without really paying enough attention to whether it makes sense in the context of what they're working on.
 
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