Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[LindyAF]

^Or even whether the they were ever something that made sense in Star Wars. I don't care if Durge has cool scenes, thousand-year-old-shoggoths-from-before-Ruusan-bounty-hunters don't make a lick of sense in Star Wars. If anything should have stayed non-canon, it was that.

 

[Battlegrinder]

Simply put if Thrawn was allowed to be competent as he was in his books, scooby doo and the gang would have been killed in his very first episode. That is why the Empire keeps being undermined and made into a joke throughout Rebels (Filoni has done the same to Battle Droids and now the Clones themselves in Bad Batch) because the writers cannot conceive of any other way in which their heroes can make funny quips and go "pew-pew" without being slaughtered.

This reminds me a bit of my initial comment on the bad batch, and it's similarity to another show. And to expand on that, it seems like the A-Team was able to thread that gap between being a show about our heroes facing down real danger, but also being less than serious about it (the a team at one point constructed an improvised cabbage launching gun, and used it fight off a gang of armed men), and it doesn't get this sort of flack, not at the time nor in retrospect. So, why is it okay for one and not the other, what's the difference between them?

 

[Lord Sovereign]

This reminds me a bit of my initial comment on the bad batch, and it's similarity to another show. And to expand on that, it seems like the A-Team was able to thread that gap between being a show about our heroes facing down real danger, but also being less than serious about it (the a team at one point constructed an improvised cabbage launching gun, and used it fight off a gang of armed men), and it doesn't get this sort of flack, not at the time nor in retrospect. So, why is it okay for one and not the other, what's the difference between them?

It's strange to describe it. A-Team seems to know what it is and runs with it, whilst Clone Wars, Rebels and Bad Batch try to have their cake and eat it. Rebels has these "super deep" themes of loss, grief, identity, growing up, family, the mysticism of the force, and then Grand Admiral Thrawn gets dragged off to god knows where by tentacle monsters. Also, the A-Team aren't dealing with the Empire, that pretty overwhelming and potent force in the Original Trilogy despite what memes and flanderisation would have you think. There's a reputation to uphold which Filoni has consistently failed to do.

 

[LindyAF]

This reminds me a bit of my initial comment on the bad batch, and it's similarity to another show. And to expand on that, it seems like the A-Team was able to thread that gap between being a show about our heroes facing down real danger, but also being less than serious about it (the a team at one point constructed an improvised cabbage launching gun, and used it fight off a gang of armed men), and it doesn't get this sort of flack, not at the time nor in retrospect. So, why is it okay for one and not the other, what's the difference between them?

IMO the main issue here is that Bad Batch, Rebels, etc. isn't in it's own universe. Licensed fiction has it's work done for it in part in that in a lot of ways it has to set up aspects of the universe and established characters less, because it can reasonably expect much of the audience to already know. But there's also a feeling that it has a certain responsibility to the source material, and that if poorly done it risks undercutting the original trilogy. This remains I think even with Legends characters being reincorporated.

If A-Team can clown on some big bad with a cabbage launcher... well that's fine, joke villains are a thing and can be done well. If Rebels sets up, say, Darth Vader as someone who can be clowned on with a cabbage launcher... then it kind of undercuts important parts of the OT. This is an extreme example, and I don't think Rebels is ever that bad (haven't watched it), but the point is the same.

 

[BlackDragon98]

As for discussion about the Sith, I don't think they can ever truly go extinct simply because they are so widespread. The Banites were just one sect that became prominent. I wouldn't be shocked if there were holdouts in the unknown regions of both ancient Sith Empires. There's a lot of worlds to lie low on out there...

Lost Tribe of the Sith in a nutshell.

 

[BlackDragon98]

^Or even whether the they were ever something that made sense in Star Wars. I don't care if Durge has cool scenes, thousand-year-old-shoggoths-from-before-Ruusan-bounty-hunters don't make a lick of sense in Star Wars. If anything should have stayed non-canon, it was that.

he's just one of those species with a long lifespan.

There are plenty of them in the EU.

 

[LindyAF]

he's just one of those species with a long lifespan.

There are plenty of them in the EU.

Yeah, and that was almost always not used and made no sense. It was just a "oh, this thing isn't human... guess it shouldn't necessarily have a human lifespan then. I'll just pick a 3 digit number and ignore any implications of this!"

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

See, this kind of stuff is why the Republic deserved to go under.

You don't even need to dig into obscure side materials to get a feeling that the Republic isn't very good.

• Naboo was a member of the Galactic Republic, and yet the Republic refused to protect one of its own members. This probably wouldn't have been a problem if Naboo was a part of a smaller federation/alliance.
• In Attack of the Clones, we see just that: we find out that the Republic has been neglecting so many other planets/star systems/members like Naboo, that there is an entire group that wants to secede from the Republic. Unlike the Confederacy, we don't see any ethically dubious stuff going on that could justify the Republic going to war against the Separatists... and yet the Republic apparently wants to conquer the Separatists and force them to be a part of the Republic. The CIS didn't even shoot first.
• The Republic also seems to be very unethical with the clone army. Yes, a mass produced army makes sense to fight wars on a galactic scale. Yes, the clone army was commissioned without the Republic's knowledge. However, we never really see or hear about any volunteer or conscript armies, and nobody brings up the elephant in the room that the Republic is basically mass producing slaves and sending them out to die. The Separatists come off as more morally righteous as they employ robot armies rather than enslaving people, and there isn't really any reason why the Republic can't make their own robot armies.

I'm not quite sure what kind of message Lucas was trying to send by having the protagonists of the Prequel trilogy trying to defend, well... a somewhat evil empire. I know that the overt lesson is to prevent the corruption of democracy, but it seems that the protagonists are blind to the fact that the Republic is already corrupt and evilish. It's rather confusing why the CIS are depicted as the antagonists. Seems like the only thing did was try to execute foreign spies/infiltrators in Attack of the Clones... which is standard policy for pretty much every country both IRL and in the Star Wars universe, right?

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Yeah, and that was almost always not used and made no sense. It was just a "oh, this thing isn't human... guess it shouldn't necessarily have a human lifespan then. I'll just pick a 3 digit number and ignore any implications of this!"

If you're wondering why there aren't more of them, then SWTOR explained it: the Sith Empire attacked the Gen'Dai homeworld at some point during the 3000s BBY. The survivors scattered across the galaxy, and between their low birth rate (even before the Sith glassed their world) and the sheer size of the galaxy, it's very rare to even come across the Gen'Dai. And when you do encounter them, it's usually those Gen'Dai who ended up joining or leading one criminal group or another. In fact, most of the Gen'Dai tend to be peaceful isolationists, who just want to be left alone.

 

[Zachowon]

Am I the only one who wants a live action Grevious?
Besides Episode 3?

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

• The Republic also seems to be very unethical with the clone army. Yes, a mass produced army makes sense to fight wars on a galactic scale. Yes, the clone army was commissioned without the Republic's knowledge. However, we never really see or hear about any volunteer or conscript armies, and nobody brings up the elephant in the room that the Republic is basically mass producing slaves and sending them out to die. The Separatists come off as more morally righteous as they employ robot armies rather than enslaving people, and there isn't really any reason why the Republic can't make their own robot armies.

Only in Disney. In the EU, while there was no formal Republic military, many member states had their own large, regional defense forces. All the Core Systems - Corellia, Kuat, Alderaan, Duros, Empress Teta, etc. - had large fleets of ships and standing armies of their own. Rim powers like Dac and of course, the Trade Federation among others also had powerful regional militaries. You could even compare them to the USA's National Guards.

The fleets - well, the loyalist ones, anyway - got merged into the reestablished Republic Navy when the Clone Wars started, while the individual armies had the effect of getting federalized. When the Republic became the Empire, the individual armies also got merged into the Imperial Army.

I'm not quite sure what kind of message Lucas was trying to send by having the protagonists of the Prequel trilogy trying to defend, well... a somewhat evil empire. I know that the overt lesson is to prevent the corruption of democracy, but it seems that the protagonists are blind to the fact that the Republic is already corrupt and evilish. It's rather confusing why the CIS are depicted as the antagonists. Seems like the only thing did was try to execute foreign spies/infiltrators in Attack of the Clones... which is standard policy for pretty much every country both IRL and in the Star Wars universe, right?

To quote a Republic partisan from SB, what do you expect the Jedi to do? Seize power in the Republic? Overthrow the Senate?

Apparently, there's this expectation the Jedi should be like the US military, i.e. completely apolitical, and should just obey the civilian government regardless of the ethics involved.

EDIT: There's also this perception that it doesn't matter if the Republic is corrupt or decadent or whatnot, simply because the Republic is the elected galactic government, and that's all that matters. Basically, even if the Republic acts like the Empire, it's perfectly alright, since they have an electoral mandate backing them up.

 

[Val the Moofia Boss]

To quote a Republic partisan from SB, what do you expect the Jedi to do? Seize power in the Republic? Overthrow the Senate?

Aren't the Jedi supposed to be following the will of the Force? Did the Force tell them to go along with the Republic's war? It seems like by the time the prequels happened, the Jedi Order had somehow gotten their priorities mixed up, becoming official state agents of the Republic and being beholden to advancing the state's agenda rather than sticking to their code. It's rather notable that nobody ever really asks "what am I supposed to do? What is the will of the Force?" and instead just says "what does the Republic say we should do?"

It seems weird that after the Prequels started coming out, when Lucas reframed the OT as being the Jedi going back to their roots, that in the EU novels Luke's New Jedi Order repeats the same mistake as its predecessor and becomes a semi-official agent of the state. Well, I guess the

Am I the only one who wants a live action Grevious?
Besides Episode 3?

Would be cool but I'd rather he stay dead and not be milked. If you're going to do more Star Wars, do new stuff.

 

[LindyAF]

IMO I think the issue is that the people at Lucasfilm couldn't figure out what the Separatists / Confeds were meant to be. Like, there's a theme in a lot of the clone wars era material that the Jedi are somehow being tricked into the conflict, that their involvement is straying from the true path, that they should have been doing something else.

But then the issue was that the Good Guys were all on the Republic side, and many of them were actively fighting for the Republic. And the Good Guys have to be always right all the time about everything (unless they're going to fall), so the Separatists were made constantly over the top evil. And yet at the same time every senator we know (who's not secretly evil) is both staunchly pro-Republic and actively taking part in foiling the evil Separatist plots... and a staunchly committed pacifist who is seeking a diplomatic solution with a nation that's basically Scrooge McDuck mass producing murderbots to enslave people instead of just building robots that could do whatever he needed the workers for.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Aren't the Jedi supposed to be following the will of the Force? Did the Force tell them to go along with the Republic's war? It seems like by the time the prequels happened, the Jedi Order had somehow gotten their priorities mixed up, becoming official state agents of the Republic and being beholden to advancing the state's agenda rather than sticking to their code. It's rather notable that nobody ever really asks "what am I supposed to do? What is the will of the Force?" and instead just says "what does the Republic say we should do?"

Actually, it goes back way further than the Clone Wars, or even the Ruusan Reformation. It goes back all the way to the First Great Schism, when the Republic and the Jedi allied with each other to crush Xendor and his Legions of Lettow. Basically, the Republic provided legal backing and additional manpower to enforce Jedi orthodoxy, while the Jedi provide religious legitimacy and supernaturally-empowered hard and soft power for the Republic.

In all honesty, Darth Sidious did have a valid point when he turned Anakin's accusation of the Sith being concerned with only gaining power for themselves back at the Jedi. The Jedi are simply intolerant of other Force sects, and not just the Sith.

Basically, the Will of the Force is just what the Jedi interpret it as, usually involving what's convenient for them and the Republic.

It seems weird that after the Prequels started coming out, when Lucas reframed the OT as being the Jedi going back to their roots, that in the EU novels Luke's New Jedi Order repeats the same mistake as its predecessor and becomes a semi-official agent of the state. Well, I guess the

The Jedi going back to their roots - in the EU, at least - would mean withdrawing into seclusion in the Deep Core, and regain true balance by mastering both the Light and the Dark. The entire Order would have to spend months, if not years, willingly imprisoning themselves on the moon of Ashla, and internalizing the truth that Light cannot exist without Darkness, and that Darkness exists within the Light. Then decades of study and additional training to master the power of the Dark Side, wielding them in balance with the powers of the Light Side.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Yeah, and that was almost always not used and made no sense. It was just a "oh, this thing isn't human... guess it shouldn't necessarily have a human lifespan then. I'll just pick a 3 digit number and ignore any implications of this!"

Just think of Durge as a more evil, more insane Star Wars version of Lobo (the Main Man) if that helps.

 

[BlackDragon98]

Only in Disney. In the EU, while there was no formal Republic military, many member states had their own large, regional defense forces. All the Core Systems - Corellia, Kuat, Alderaan, Duros, Empress Teta, etc. - had large fleets of ships and standing armies of their own. Rim powers like Dac and of course, the Trade Federation among others also had powerful regional militaries. You could even compare them to the USA's National Guards.

There was a whole arc in the Dark Horse series Star Wars: Republic where some hotheaded young officers in the Rendili Planetary Defense fleet tried to defect to the Separatists.

The fleets - well, the loyalist ones, anyway - got merged into the reestablished Republic Navy when the Clone Wars started, while the individual armies had the effect of getting federalized. When the Republic became the Empire, the individual armies also got merged into the Imperial Army.

In the EU, the vast majority of Republic NCO and below ranked forces were clones, but there were many regular human officers in the Republic Navy and GAR.

To quote a Republic partisan from SB, what do you expect the Jedi to do? Seize power in the Republic? Overthrow "the Senate"?

That went terribly the last time it was tried.

Apparently, there's this expectation the Jedi should be like the US military, i.e. completely apolitical, and should just obey the civilian government regardless of the ethics involved.

EDIT: There's also this perception that it doesn't matter if the Republic is corrupt or decadent or whatnot, simply because the Republic is the elected galactic government, and that's all that matters. Basically, even if the Republic acts like the Empire, it's perfectly alright, since they have an electoral mandate backing them up.

It's for that reason that I actually sympathize more with the Seppies than the Repubs.

At least the Separatists didn't use an entire army of slaves to fight for them.

Would be cool but I'd rather he stay dead and not be milked. If you're going to do more Star Wars, do new stuff.

Plenty of untapped stuff from the EU.

The Jedi going back to their roots - in the EU, at least - would mean withdrawing into seclusion in the Deep Core, and regain true balance by mastering both the Light and the Dark. The entire Order would have to spend months, if not years, willingly imprisoning themselves on the moon of Ashla, and internalizing the truth that Light cannot exist without Darkness, and that Darkness exists within the Light. Then decades of study and additional training to master the power of the Dark Side, wielding them in balance with the powers of the Light Side.

The Jensaarai are IMO the most balanced of the Grey Jedi and the most effective.

Cortosis weave armor, Ballistakinesis, and incredible force stealth.

Helluva fighting force right there.

 

[Zachowon]

Aren't the Jedi supposed to be following the will of the Force? Did the Force tell them to go along with the Republic's war? It seems like by the time the prequels happened, the Jedi Order had somehow gotten their priorities mixed up, becoming official state agents of the Republic and being beholden to advancing the state's agenda rather than sticking to their code. It's rather notable that nobody ever really asks "what am I supposed to do? What is the will of the Force?" and instead just says "what does the Republic say we should do?"

It seems weird that after the Prequels started coming out, when Lucas reframed the OT as being the Jedi going back to their roots, that in the EU novels Luke's New Jedi Order repeats the same mistake as its predecessor and becomes a semi-official agent of the state. Well, I guess the



Would be cool but I'd rather he stay dead and not be milked. If you're going to do more Star Wars, do new stuff.

I mean like at least show us how he became a badass and claimed so many sabers. Something taking place just focusing on him as a general and jedi killer.

 

[BlackDragon98]

I mean like at least show us how he became a badass and claimed so many sabers. Something taking place just focusing on him as a general and jedi killer.

Adapt the battle scene between him and Kruk'h, Shaak Ti, Ki Adi Mundi, and the other Jedi into live action.

That alone would get the Old Fanbase back.

 

[Buba]

I loved the scene where the commuter train snatched Grevious away.
Not that I care about the cartoons that much - it was my Baby Boy who showed me that scene, otherwise I'd be oblivious to it (I'm a theatre movie fan).

 

[Bacle]

So I just found out today is Dave Filoni's birthday.

Here's hoping he will get to celebrate his next one as head of Lucasfilm.