Alternate History World War III: 1988, aka "The War of '88"

[Aaron Fox]

Becouse he thought that nobody like Stalin is not dangerous,and fought over power with Bukharin and Zinowiew.And all died for their lack of thinking.
But - i t was for the best.I dunno about Zinowiew,but both Bukharin and Trocky would create stronger soviets,and probably take over entire Europe and Africa.

No, Trotsky managed to alienate everyone else within the USSR. Everyone knew that at the end of the day that Trotsky was the successor to Lenin, problem was that everyone hated Trotsky. No one else understood what was needed at the time than Stalin I'm sad to say. You forget that more often than not, you have to drag Russia kicking and screaming to modernity because it is so resistant in doing so.

 

[Tiamat]

I made an edit to the chapter "The hawk and the Sparrow" in the conversation between Director Chebrikov of the KGB and Colonel Leonid Petrovkin, discussing the Soviet's plan known as DARK MIRROR and what it may entail...


***************


The KGB Director shook his head assertively. “No Colonel, that will not be necessary. BLUE FUNNEL would take much more time…and time is against us all, we fear.” Heads nodded at the table, including Gromyko. At this, the Director continued. “It is unfortunate it has come to this, no? For since the end of the Great Patriotic War, the warmongering West has continued to bay and threaten us, spurred on by our greatest foe: The United States of America. A nation of young, reckless cowboys who understand nothing of history, but are peopled with capitalist gangsters who hurl vitriol while they stuff themselves fat with the wealth of the proletariat." Chebrikov pushed back his chair and stood up, the chair legs squealing in protest against the floor. He turned and began to walk every so slowly toward Petrovkin. “But in the past, those cries and threats were but empty words, thrown out to conceal their own softness. But now…now with this cowboy Reagan and his lackey Thatcher, they seem to think nuclear missiles are six-shooters. They wage war with imperial ambition, and yet know nothing of true sacrifice, like what our own Motherland endured during the Great Patriotic War, when we pushed back the Nazi scourge. When we sacrificed a third of our own country, our own sons and daughters, to stem the Nazi tide. And how did the West thank us? By stabbing us in the back!” Heads nodded again, as the blazing fire in the hearth continued to crackle.

Chebrikov regarded the men at the table momentarily, before returning his gaze to the KGB Colonel. “And so now it has come to this. The Americans and their gangster allies are preparing to bring war to the Motherland. And thus, we have no other choice, Comrade Colonel. It is regrettable, but necessary. When the inevitable war comes, we must strike at their very heart, where they are the most vulnerable, and show them the true meaning of fear. They will learn they are not safe in their pristine palaces an ocean away. No, they will learn the same lessons we did when the Nazis invaded and burned our own Motherland. We shall bring the war to their very shores, using the peasants of the world that they trampled upon for so long." Chebrikov stopped within a few feet of the Colonel, his black rimmed glasses seemingly concealing his true self as he bore his own gaze into Petrovkin like a drill.

“And when we plunge the dagger into their very hearts, we must exercise that same resolution, that same determination…and that same ruthlessness that we once displayed to drive back the Nazi invaders, again. Just like what your father did as he commanded a tank in the drive to Berlin, or like Major Ilyasov’s mother, who dropped bombs on the Nazi’s heads from her biplane. We must be as hard as steel…and be as cold as ice.” He continued to scrutinize Leonid like a doctor about to dissect an insect.

“Have faith in our great socialist state, Comrade Petrovkin, and we shall be victorious, when the war comes. You do have faith, yes…?”

Leonid felt like he was a man standing at the edge of an abyss…and peering into it. He knew all it would take was one word or motion from anyone in that room including the Director, and any of the KGB Guards would shoot him where he stood…and by tomorrow it would be like he never existed. He remembered the most important advice he’d ever known in his life from his paternal grandfather: “If one must swim with sharks boy, do so wisely. Be courteous to everyone, observe everything, reveal nothing…and trust no one.”

*******************

Basically, to illustrate the Soviet's POV. The coup plotters that overthrew Gorbachev aren't living in the world of 1987, they're living in the world of 1945. They are aging, and paranoid as hell. On top of that, Reagan has thrown a grain embargo against them, and is starting to push the Soviets into a corner, not unlike the embargo that was placed on Imperial Japan in the late 1930's. You can probably see where this is heading...

 

[ATP]

Very soviet approach.
There is old soviet joke - there is no possible to be honest,smart and belong to soviet party.Becouse only idiots belived in their propaganda.
Now,when soviets are ruled by old idiots beliving in their own lies,soviet union is doomed.Only question - how many other people would die.
Funny thing - as old people,they should remembered,that comrade Hitler was their ally.
If they really live in 1945,then they should still use wave tactic.Another reason,why they are doomed.

P.S i read once some russian article which claimed,that GRU and Army wanted war,but KGB murdered some generals and so saved peace.Unfortunatelly,i forget author.

 

[lordhen]

So far it this TL is looking good ore bad as a World War III is never a fine thing, but still i like World War III TLs a lot ever sins i read Red Storm Rissing, so thanks for posting one here i can read.

 

[ATP]

I just read,that soviets was 20 years behind USA in computers.If that is true,air and sean fight should be rather one-sided,dunno about tanks.

 

[lordhen]

I just read,that soviets was 20 years behind USA in computers.If that is true,air and sean fight should be rather one-sided,dunno about tanks.

They even bought Western computers in some cases, because theirs where not good enough i hear.

 

[ATP]

I just discovered,that Ryszard Kukliński who gave info USA was supported by many officers who was aware of fact,that during war USA would drop A bombs on Poland,not soviets.Unfortunatelly i only knew name of general Bolesław Chocha,who died in 1987.
I also discovered,that except invasion by sea,rest of our army would attack from Szczecin throught East Germany to Denmark,and that we would get some tactical nukes from soviets.
Target would be Brema,Kopenchaga and other cities.
All in all,soviets planned to use 600+ tactical nukes against targets in Germany and Denmark,some given to their vassals.

 

[Tiamat]

Very soviet approach.
There is old soviet joke - there is no possible to be honest,smart and belong to soviet party.Becouse only idiots belived in their propaganda.
Now,when soviets are ruled by old idiots beliving in their own lies,soviet union is doomed.Only question - how many other people would die.
Funny thing - as old people,they should remembered,that comrade Hitler was their ally.
If they really live in 1945,then they should still use wave tactic.Another reason,why they are doomed.

P.S i read once some russian article which claimed,that GRU and Army wanted war,but KGB murdered some generals and so saved peace.Unfortunatelly,i forget author.

Keep in mind the average age of a Politburo party member in this particular alternate timeline, much like it was in real life, would be roughly between 70 to 80 years of age. They remember quite vividly the "Great Patriotic War" or WW2 as it's known in the West. Problem is? They're still carrying that same paranoid mentality that the West is out to get them...when it could just as easily be argued they were doing their damndest to subvert the West via espionage, propaganda, blackmail, etc. But to make it worse, in this timeline Reagan has hardened his stance after the '86 coup, a grain embargo is now in effect, and the hardliners have convinced themselves that war with the West is inevitable. And the Soviets are firm believers in that often the best defense, is a good offense...

I remember reading in Ken Alibekov's Biohazard that he alluded to in conversations with Soviet officers that there was tension between the Soviet military leadership and Gorbachev's reformers. Here? Gorbachev and his circle are dead/deposed, the KGB and the Party are for the most part running the show, with the Army (third part of the power triad in the USSR) mostly willing to play along as they're getting a boost in military expenditures and procurements. The only problem is, some of the mid-level echelons and possibly even a few of the higher leadership in the Army are concerned about the more aggressive posture the Kremlin is taking and want at least more time to procure the new hardware the Soviets are developing and increase their capabilities before a war breaks out. Somewhat ironically, at the same time there is also fears within the Soviet leadership that indeed the West has pushed well past the Soviets in terms of overall military capabilities and the Soviets are straining themselves economically just to try to catch up. In real life this last bit is one factor that ended up breaking the Soviets as they were spending so much on military expenditures while their economy was starting to sputter out due to infrastructure issues and horrible mismanagement.

I just read,that soviets was 20 years behind USA in computers.If that is true,air and sean fight should be rather one-sided,dunno about tanks.

Well....yes and no? Technology is not the end-all nor be-all, though it certainly makes quite a difference. There's innumerable other factors like quantity (which can be argued is a quality in itself and the Soviets certainly have), training and quality of troops (which the West would arguably have a bit more of an edge depending on country), and overall morale and will to fight (VERY important). Then there's logistics, something the Americans in particular would have a very definitive advantage, while the Soviets....well, turns out they had a few Achilles heels, and logistics was one of them. Also, not to mention Soviet technology had it's share of odd, and sometimes dangerous quirks; one glaring example being the autoloaders on their tank guns which could sometimes be quite the hazard to tank crews. Some Soviet tank crews, depending on the tank and the circumstances would sometimes carry an extra crewmember just to ensure the autoloaders worked properly.

I just discovered,that Ryszard Kukliński who gave info USA was supported by many officers who was aware of fact,that during war USA would drop A bombs on Poland,not soviets.Unfortunatelly i only knew name of general Bolesław Chocha,who died in 1987.
I also discovered,that except invasion by sea,rest of our army would attack from Szczecin throught East Germany to Denmark,and that we would get some tactical nukes from soviets.
Target would be Brema,Kopenchaga and other cities.
All in all,soviets planned to use 600+ tactical nukes against targets in Germany and Denmark,some given to their vassals.

Things will get quite interesting in Western Europe, more than that, I cannot say for the moment.

The only problem with nukes in this timeline, the Kremlin wishes to pursue a more conventional war when it comes...at least at first. Notice with the new hardware seen at the Soviet '87 May Day parade they are attempting to bolster their conventional assets, along with also opening more pilot positions to women so they can shift more capable males to ground combat roles. Problem, again is it takes time, additional funding and TRAINING for that new hardware to make a difference. How much difference? That will remain to be seen. The Soviets hierarchy in this timeline feels if they resort to nukes from the outset, they are politically telling the world they 're too weak to fight the West and it's allies conventionally. That, and also the issue with a "cowboy American President who would want an excuse to launch nuclear genocide on the entire world," at least from their POV.

 

[ATP]

Keep in mind the average age of a Politburo party member in this particular alternate timeline, much like it was in real life, would be roughly between 70 to 80 years of age. They remember quite vividly the "Great Patriotic War" or WW2 as it's known in the West. Problem is? They're still carrying that same paranoid mentality that the West is out to get them...when it could just as easily be argued they were doing their damndest to subvert the West via espionage, propaganda, blackmail, etc. But to make it worse, in this timeline Reagan has hardened his stance after the '86 coup, a grain embargo is now in effect, and the hardliners have convinced themselves that war with the West is inevitable. And the Soviets are firm believers in that often the best defense, is a good offense...

I remember reading in Ken Alibekov's Biohazard that he alluded to in conversations with Soviet officers that there was tension between the Soviet military leadership and Gorbachev's reformers. Here? Gorbachev and his circle are dead/deposed, the KGB and the Party are for the most part running the show, with the Army (third part of the power triad in the USSR) mostly willing to play along as they're getting a boost in military expenditures and procurements. The only problem is, some of the mid-level echelons and possibly even a few of the higher leadership in the Army are concerned about the more aggressive posture the Kremlin is taking and want at least more time to procure the new hardware the Soviets are developing and increase their capabilities before a war breaks out. Somewhat ironically, at the same time there is also fears within the Soviet leadership that indeed the West has pushed well past the Soviets in terms of overall military capabilities and the Soviets are straining themselves economically just to try to catch up. In real life this last bit is one factor that ended up breaking the Soviets as they were spending so much on military expenditures while their economy was starting to sputter out due to infrastructure issues and horrible mismanagement.





Well....yes and no? Technology is not the end-all nor be-all, though it certainly makes quite a difference. There's innumerable other factors like quantity (which can be argued is a quality in itself and the Soviets certainly have), training and quality of troops (which the West would arguably have a bit more of an edge depending on country), and overall morale and will to fight (VERY important). Then there's logistics, something the Americans in particular would have a very definitive advantage, while the Soviets....well, turns out they had a few Achilles heels, and logistics was one of them. Also, not to mention Soviet technology had it's share of odd, and sometimes dangerous quirks; one glaring example being the autoloaders on their tank guns which could sometimes be quite the hazard to tank crews. Some Soviet tank crews, depending on the tank and the circumstances would sometimes carry an extra crewmember just to ensure the autoloaders worked properly.



Things will get quite interesting in Western Europe, more than that, I cannot say for the moment.

The only problem with nukes in this timeline, the Kremlin wishes to pursue a more conventional war when it comes...at least at first. Notice with the new hardware seen at the Soviet '87 May Day parade they are attempting to bolster their conventional assets, along with also opening more pilot positions to women so they can shift more capable males to ground combat roles. Problem, again is it takes time, additional funding and TRAINING for that new hardware to make a difference. How much difference? That will remain to be seen. The Soviets hierarchy in this timeline feels if they resort to nukes from the outset, they are politically telling the world they 're too weak to fight the West and it's allies conventionally. That, and also the issue with a "cowboy American President who would want an excuse to launch nuclear genocide on the entire world," at least from their POV.

1.About Biohazard - i read it too,and apparently they had all possible B weapons,including Ebola.Would they use them,and if so,when and where ?
2.Soviet logistic always more or less sucked,by they counter that by more robust stuff and people who needed little to fight.
About computers - i knew that some polish spy stealed tank computer,and in Poland most T.55 had it.As a result,one T.55 with western computer could fight 5 normal T.55.
I do not knew,if that would be true for western/spviet tank battles,too.
3.Good about nukes.Otherwise war would end when soviets nuked western Germany and Denmark,and USA East Germany and Poland.Besides,if they thrown numbers on western forces, it could work.Nec Hercules contra plures,after all.
And womans as pilots - good idea,they could better survive acceleration.

 

[Kujo]

speaking of logistics, the funny thing is in 1941 all this could of been avoid- NO LEND LEASE to the Soviet Union, not a shot need be fired, just take away their trucks, trains and grain. No rapid advance after Stalingrad, no Orel offensive after Kursk, just let the two leftist ideologies of Fascism and Communism grind each other into the ground! If Ba'al and Satan want to fight each other I getting out of the way and let them fight, if two rabid dogs want to rip the others throat out, I'll stand back and wait to empty my 12 gauge into the head of the winner and then the loser, reload and repeat! Thank you.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

speaking of logistics, the funny thing is in 1941 all this could of been avoid- NO LEND LEASE to the Soviet Union, not a shot need be fired, just take away their trucks, trains and grain. No rapid advance after Stalingrad, no Orel offensive after Kursk, just let the two leftist ideologies of Fascism and Communism grind each other into the ground! If Ba'al and Satan want to fight each other I getting out of the way and let them fight, if two rabid dogs want to rip the others throat out, I'll stand back and wait to empty my 12 gauge into the head of the winner and then the loser, reload and repeat! Thank you.

They’ll have to switch to propaganda and intellectual infiltrators as their weapons almost entirely instead of well, actual weapons, then

 

[Kioras]

I just read,that soviets was 20 years behind USA in computers.If that is true,air and sean fight should be rather one-sided,dunno about tanks.

Kinda. Their scientists, engineers and programmers were good, however their hardware suffered like everything else in the Soviet system.

Poor reliability and an inability to push the number of systems needed. They lacked the number of computers needed to actually make use of all of the programmers for example and hobbies ts had to rely on the black market to get parts.

They had clones of common Western hardware and that is what they largely relied on.

Per Wikipedia they had 200,000 computers in the country by 1989, however they trained 300,000 programmers by 1984 for example.

The major IBM/PC compatible computer was introduced in 1989 and only entered mass production by 1991. It was based on the Intel 8088 chip.

In comparison Intel was shipping production numbers of the 486 in 1989 also.

Many of the five year plans had a lot of political jockeying behind them and the designers of the plans were the ones who did not understand the field. With computing technology changing so rapidly and relying on feedback, especially with Moore’s law fully in place at the time it meant they were too damned slow to adapt.

 

[Tiamat]

Kinda. Their scientists, engineers and programmers were good, however their hardware suffered like everything else in the Soviet system.

Poor reliability and an inability to push the number of systems needed. They lacked the number of computers needed to actually make use of all of the programmers for example and hobbies ts had to rely on the black market to get parts.

They had clones of common Western hardware and that is what they largely relied on.

Per Wikipedia they had 200,000 computers in the country by 1989, however they trained 300,000 programmers by 1984 for example.

The major IBM/PC compatible computer was introduced in 1989 and only entered mass production by 1991. It was based on the Intel 8088 chip.

In comparison Intel was shipping production numbers of the 486 in 1989 also.

Many of the five year plans had a lot of political jockeying behind them and the designers of the plans were the ones who did not understand the field. With computing technology changing so rapidly and relying on feedback, especially with Moore’s law fully in place at the time it meant they were too damned slow to adapt.

Very much this. Also, other factors were: The infamous Soviet top-down bureaucracy that had various ministries and agencies within the USSR competing against each other over production and oversight of computing systems, along with the variable and sometimes (if not often) poor production and Q&A standards of Soviet manufacturing. One joke from the TV miniseries Chernobyl (which I highly recommend), as told by the Soviet miners that get tasked to build the tunnel under the NPP, goes like this:

"What’s as big as a house, burns 20 liters of fuel every hour, puts out a shit-load of smoke and noise, and cuts an apple into three pieces? A Soviet machine made to cut apples into four pieces!"

Another issue was that a lot of Soviet technology was still reliant on vacuum tubes. While the vacuum tubes they built were fairly sturdy and reliable, and could better withstand EMP (electromagnetic pulse) from nuclear strikes, vacuum tubes were 50's and 60's type tech while the West had moved along to far more efficient transistors, which required more meticulous production designs and standards, something the Soviets didn't always excel at.

 

[Kioras]

Very much this. Also, other factors were: The infamous Soviet top-down bureaucracy that had various ministries and agencies within the USSR competing against each other over production and oversight of computing systems, along with the variable and sometimes (if not often) poor production and Q&A standards of Soviet manufacturing.

This also means that once the West beats back or blunts the Soviet offensive their equipment quality and durability will start to drop.

The best most reliable gear will be on the front. The Soviets will start drafting people from the factories, reducing efficiency. Eventually trained people will be replaced with untrained cripples.

Vacuum tubes work well enough away from the font, however they really do not fit well in tanks for example to help with fire control as easily. All that heat needs to be exhausted along with providing the power.

 

[Tiamat]

This also means that once the West beats back or blunts the Soviet offensive their equipment quality and durability will start to drop.

The best most reliable gear will be on the front. The Soviets will start drafting people from the factories, reducing efficiency. Eventually trained people will be replaced with untrained cripples.

Vacuum tubes work well enough away from the font, however they really do not fit well in tanks for example to help with fire control as easily. All that heat needs to be exhausted along with providing the power.

I have heard the Soviets had a strategy to first throw more of their "Cat B" divisions against NATO in the case of war and essentially let them be the meat shields, taking most of the brunt of NATO's munitions, then with the NATO frontline units worn down they would send in their top-tier "Cat A" units to exploit any weaknesses in the lines and push for a breakthrough. At least, that's one theory...

But agreed....as more of the Soviet's best hardware gets fed into a meatgrinder in the case of war, they'll have to fall back on older equipment that's been placed in storage. Said equipment needs to be brought up to readiness standards first, and then assume the equipment is still good enough to take on the remaining NATO units...and a lot of that equipment they kept in storage in places like the Urals, such as MBT tanks for example ranged from '50's era T-55s to even WW2-era T-34/85's, with in fact many of the Soviet "Cat V", or Cat III units still equipped with T-55's. Hell, some WARPAC reserve units up until the 1980's were still operating T-34/85's. :O

The Soviets traditionally relied on numbers as a quality of their own in offensive operations. They didn't just blindly throw units en masse at the frontlines hoping for a breakthrough...at least, later in WW2 they employed more sensible tactics. The constant purges Stalin employed at the beginning of WW2 didn't help matters as it turned out. But bottom line, the Soviets would find themselves racing against a clock. Strike hard, and strike FAST. They need to reach their objectives within a matter of time, theoretically before more American reinforcements would arrive from CONUS, whom most will have far more modern equipment that would be superior in quality to the Soviets, at least by this timeframe in the late 1980s. And while the Soviets in this timeline are trying to bring out newer and theoretically better weapons and trying to integrate them into their forces, the Americans and their allies are doing likewise, hence the good old days of the arms race. If the Soviets haven't reached their stated objectives yet and the fresh wave of reinforcements and equipment arrives from the U.S.? Things will begin to get more dicey for the Soviets.

Good point on bringing up how the war will affect the Soviet economy. The Soviets will indeed have to pull more capable men, and in this case, women from the factories, which will create problems in itself. But not just factories. You also need people to till and harvest the fields if you want to keep people fed, and then there's of course the issue with any food that gets harvested needs to be transported. Two issues there: A lot of Soviet truck drivers as it turns out were Army reservists which are likely getting called up. Less truck drivers, less trucks to haul food and other supplies around the country. The other, the Soviet rail network, which was used to haul somewhere around 50 to 75 percent of their goods around the country ( I don't have the exact stats). A lot of this rail network didn't have redundancy like for example the American rail networks, and often consisted of single tracks going to and from various regions across the USSR. Said rail network is going to be hideously vulnerable and is quite likely going to be getting some visits from the USAF and RAF...

Of course, there's much more elements to this, including the battle to control the skies, the battle to keep the sea lanes open, if the U.S. Military finds itself operating on multiple fronts, the issue of the Soviet economy and how the U.S. military will be likely be bombing the living hell out of as much of the Soviet logistical and rail network as they can, etc. etc....

 

[Kioras]

The Soviets traditionally relied on numbers as a quality of their own in offensive operations. They didn't just blindly throw units en masse at the frontlines hoping for a breakthrough...at least, later in WW2 they employed more sensible tactics.

That view that numbers have a quality of their own is just so wrong when you are dealing with hardware that is more than a half generation out of date.

It means that the Soviets might see first hand what happened to the Iraqi Republican Guard first hand with their downgraded units.

That sort of thing is not good for moral.

Not to mention the sheer amount of time and resources needed to bring machines out of mothballs when they have sat there for years like that. Pouring oil in a machine and hoping it starts up and then hoping it does not seize up randomly is always a problem.

Especially with Soviet Quality.

Going to need new batteries to start them up. I can’t see a bunch of Red Army privates trying to use a crank shaft to start up a T-55.

 

[ATP]

I read,that soviet had mothballed their heavy tanks,too.Not that it help them much.
About how good new units would be - Wiktor Suworow before become GRU was tank commander.His dyvision exercises creating second dyvision from dudes who served 10 years or more before.Result? they forget almost everything,and when they ordered them to come into BTR60 in full gear they need almost 15 minutes to leave machine.

If soviet send such units,it would be massacre.

 

[Tiamat]

That view that numbers have a quality of their own is just so wrong when you are dealing with hardware that is more than a half generation out of date.

It means that the Soviets might see first hand what happened to the Iraqi Republican Guard first hand with their downgraded units.

That sort of thing is not good for moral.

Not to mention the sheer amount of time and resources needed to bring machines out of mothballs when they have sat there for years like that. Pouring oil in a machine and hoping it starts up and then hoping it does not seize up randomly is always a problem.

Especially with Soviet Quality.

Going to need new batteries to start them up. I can’t see a bunch of Red Army privates trying to use a crank shaft to start up a T-55.

Bear in mind the Soviet Army as a whole again, were always very top-down in terms of leadership and traditionally very slow to institute reforms. While one could argue the Soviet Army of the 1980s was not quite the same as the Soviet Army of 1945, advances in technology and modern warfare notwithstanding, quite a few similar attitudes remained. It worked before when it was used to crush the Nazi horde, so if it wasn't broke, why fix it, comrade? This attitude more or less carried over to Afghanistan, and we kind of know how that ended...

There was a reason the "Category III" or "V" were always considered at somewhere officially around 10-30 percent readiness with a minimum preparatory time of at least two months. As you mentioned, it takes time to pull all that old equipment out of mothballs and make it serviceable again, i.e. running new oil through the engines and changing out gaskets and seals, replacing tires and treads, getting rid of any major corrosion and rust, etc, etc. And then there's the veteran conscripts themselves who need to get back into some form of decent physical shape (which by Soviet standards would be very loosely translated) and get retrained on just the basics alone, let alone getting issued their equipment. The Soviets still had huge stockpiles of WW2-era Mosin-Nagant rifles still packed in cosmoline preserve that were waiting to be issued. BTW, have fun getting that crap off of your rifles, prizyvnik!

I read,that soviet had mothballed their heavy tanks,too.Not that it help them much.
About how good new units would be - Wiktor Suworow before become GRU was tank commander.His dyvision exercises creating second dyvision from dudes who served 10 years or more before.Result? they forget almost everything,and when they ordered them to come into BTR60 in full gear they need almost 15 minutes to leave machine.

If soviet send such units,it would be massacre.

By heavy tanks do you mean the KV? That would sound right, but in all honesty a KV tank in a modern WW3 European battlefield is going to be about as useful as a tackling dummy getting hauled by a turtle.

That wouldn't surprise me about the BTR-60 though, or any of the BTR's for that matter. I'm sure on paper and in the media the BTR's and BMP's looked like a game-changer, and to an extent they were....the problem though was that the Soviets never bothered to invest in designing drop-ramps as opposed to those damned hatches they kept insisting on using for their vehicles, on a personnel carrier that was only just big enough to carry a moderately well-armed rifle squad but not much else, and trying to stuff all those conscripts inside said vehicles like sardines and then have them try to squeeze out of those said hatches with full kit in a battle formation? Good luck. Not to mention the BMP's also had that convenient "issue" with the fuel tanks built into the rear access hatches apparently as a cost saving measure...something the Afghan mujaheddin quickly discovered much to their delight in Afghanistan...

 

[gral]

By heavy tanks do you mean the KV?

IS-3s and T-10s, those were the main heavy tanks in mothballs. When they start scrapping the bottom of the barrel, you might see some IS-2Ms being put back into service.

 

[CurtisLemay]

IS-3s and T-10s, those were the main heavy tanks in mothballs. When they start scrapping the bottom of the barrel, you might see some IS-2Ms being put back into service.

Yeah, what they're finding the Russians kept in reserve armories is unreal. Mountains of captured 98ks, rumors of equally large mountains of MG-42s, Maxims, and that's just the small arms. I'm not saying you'll see T-26s out there, you won't, but don't be surprised if they do call up the Category G (mobilization only) divisions, they're handing 40 year old privates PPshs or Nagants, putting him in a Studebaker truck (that they forgot to hand back) and sending him to a frontline he is woefully unprepared for.