History What are some of your most contraversial takes on history?

[Doomsought]

There's also the part where no one gave a shit about the Jews until it was politically convenient. Anti-Semitism was only a popular rallying cry when it became a means of crucifying the defeated enemy.

Actually, Benito Mussolini accepted Jewish refugees from Germany. He only changed his official stance on the Jews under pressure from Hitler when he needed German aid to maintain control of Italy... its very likely he would have survived the war if he allowed himself to be captured by the Allies rather than fleeing Italy, then again the only reason he was even allied with the Germans is because he threw a temper tantrum when the British snubbed him over Italy's colonial ventures.

 

[Cherico]

Actually, Benito Mussolini accepted Jewish refugees from Germany. He only changed his official stance on the Jews under pressure from Hitler when he needed German aid to maintain control of Italy... its very likely he would have survived the war if he allowed himself to be captured by the Allies rather than fleeing Italy, then again the only reason he was even allied with the Germans is because he threw a temper tantrum when the British snubbed him over Italy's colonial ventures.

If he had declared neutrality stayed the fuck out of the war and then back stabbed hitler when it was clear where the wind was blowing Italy would be doing much better right now.

 

[Morphic Tide]

If he had declared neutrality stayed the fuck out of the war and then back stabbed hitler when it was clear where the wind was blowing Italy would be doing much better right now.

There's a non-zero chance the entire world would be doing dramatically better, as if Italy were still a heavily militarized authoritarian state people would have come up with every possible excuse to get them in the "Fuck The Soviets" coalition formally as more boots on the ground, in an exact flip of the Soviets being in the Allies.

Which means Fascism is sustained as a valid political ideology to keep Italy on-hand in case the Soviets try to push forward. Which, in turn, guts the demonization of Nationalism as a concept, thus creating quite the additional barrier to the Leftward lurching of academia.

 

[Captain X]

I'm fine with fascism not being around anymore. I just wished communism was looked upon in the same way since they aren't all the different anyway.

 

[Morphic Tide]

I'm fine with fascism not being around anymore. I just wished communism was looked upon in the same way since they aren't all the different anyway.

It isn't so much Fascism staying around in perpetuity as the fact that the historic universal demonization "backwashed" into all flavors of Nationalism, thus making state self-interest a lot "dirtier" than it would be if NATO had cause to keep a Fascist country on its side.

 

[WolfBear]

Actually, Benito Mussolini accepted Jewish refugees from Germany. He only changed his official stance on the Jews under pressure from Hitler when he needed German aid to maintain control of Italy... its very likely he would have survived the war if he allowed himself to be captured by the Allies rather than fleeing Italy, then again the only reason he was even allied with the Germans is because he threw a temper tantrum when the British snubbed him over Italy's colonial ventures.

Do you think that he'd be given the death penalty, life in prison, or a lesser sentence?

There's a non-zero chance the entire world would be doing dramatically better, as if Italy were still a heavily militarized authoritarian state people would have come up with every possible excuse to get them in the "Fuck The Soviets" coalition formally as more boots on the ground, in an exact flip of the Soviets being in the Allies.

Which means Fascism is sustained as a valid political ideology to keep Italy on-hand in case the Soviets try to push forward. Which, in turn, guts the demonization of Nationalism as a concept, thus creating quite the additional barrier to the Leftward lurching of academia.

lol Putin is reviving Fascism right now. But academia is still on a leftward trend, no?

I'm fine with fascism not being around anymore. I just wished communism was looked upon in the same way since they aren't all the different anyway.

Agreed. Screw Pinkos!

 

[WolfBear]

I'm not going to blame the poles for their heroism.

Murdering Nazi collaborators was a good thing unless they only collaborated with the Nazis in order to save lives, in which case killing them would be wrong. Ditto for murdering Russian collaborators in Ukraine right now.

@sillygoose Did the Nazis want to turn Poland into a protectorate or give it Slovakia/Hungary/Romania levels of autonomy (assuming that their desired Polish politicians actually cooperated with them, of course)? Because the Jewish Holocaust mortality rate (90%) in the Nazis' Czech protectorate was roughly as high as it was in Poland.

 

[Batrix2070]

Poland deserved to have an Axis collaborationist government during World War II since that would have likely been the only realistic way to save a larger percentage of Polish Jewry after the Fall of France (and without having the Axis win the war, of course). 90% of Poland's Jewish population was murdered in the Holocaust, but in Europe outside of Poland, around 50% of the Jewish population survived the Holocaust (with great variance by country, obviously). A Polish collaborationist Axis government could have perhaps somewhat reduced the Jewish Holocaust death toll in Poland.

Technically speaking, many in Poland believe that we should have gone into alliance with Hitler in 39 for somewhat similar reasons, though rather to protect the Polish nation which lost a significant part of its elite during that war and millions of ordinary Poles were murdered, and the front passed through our country twice turning it into rubble and destruction worse than after World War I. The only Conflict to match the devastation of World War II is.... Swedish Deluge which destroyed our country more.

There is even a book by the "terrible" Ziemkiewicz by the title What a Beautiful Suicide which explains why what we did 39 was the stupidest thing we did.

Of course, many go a little fancy for example the Ribentrop-Beck pact.

Did the Nazis want to turn Poland into a protectorate or give it Slovakia/Hungary/Romania levels of autonomy (assuming that their desired Polish politicians actually cooperated with them, of course)? Because the Jewish Holocaust mortality rate (90%) in the Nazis' Czech protectorate was roughly as high as it was in Poland.

There is even a nice irony here, because after 39 Hitler wanted to create a puppet Poland but Stalin didn't agree and since the Poles didn't want to either, they didn't do it in the end.

 

[sillygoose]

How many additional Polish Jews do you think that they would have saved? But Yeah, being a Shaheed (Martyr) is not exactly attractive even to save lives. Not everyone is Raoul Wallenberg.

No idea, but likely a non-zero number. By ensuring less resistance and more collaboration as well as more food output then it could be a considerable number.

@sillygoose Did the Nazis want to turn Poland into a protectorate or give it Slovakia/Hungary/Romania levels of autonomy (assuming that their desired Polish politicians actually cooperated with them, of course)? Because the Jewish Holocaust mortality rate (90%) in the Nazis' Czech protectorate was roughly as high as it was in Poland.

You mean after conquest? No way they'd get allied level status. That was an option before the war, not after. It would be a protectorate like Czechoslovakia, but with more occupation. Question is when did the Jews die from Czechoslovakia? At the same time as occupied Poland or later in the war?

 

[sillygoose]

Technically speaking, many in Poland believe that we should have gone into alliance with Hitler in 39 for somewhat similar reasons, though rather to protect the Polish nation which lost a significant part of its elite during that war and millions of ordinary Poles were murdered, and the front passed through our country twice turning it into rubble and destruction worse than after World War I. The only Conflict to match the devastation of World War II is.... Swedish Deluge which destroyed our country more.

There is even a book by the "terrible" Ziemkiewicz by the title What a Beautiful Suicide which explains why what we did 39 was the stupidest thing we did.

In hindsight that is rather obvious. Millions of lives could have been saved. At the time though it is somewhat understandable given the nominal economics of the alliances that it would appear that Germany couldn't win. After all everyone thought the Allies had the best militaries on the planet not to mention the biggest as well as US support, so fighting instead of negotiating seemed like the better deal, especially as working with Germany would alienate Stalin and potentially turn Poland into the front lines in a Nazi-Soviet war that seemed in the offing. Plus then if the Allies turned on the Axis Poland would really be screwed.

 

[Cherico]

Technically speaking, many in Poland believe that we should have gone into alliance with Hitler in 39 for somewhat similar reasons, though rather to protect the Polish nation which lost a significant part of its elite during that war and millions of ordinary Poles were murdered, and the front passed through our country twice turning it into rubble and destruction worse than after World War I. The only Conflict to match the devastation of World War II is.... Swedish Deluge which destroyed our country more.

There is even a book by the "terrible" Ziemkiewicz by the title What a Beautiful Suicide which explains why what we did 39 was the stupidest thing we did.

Of course, many go a little fancy for example the Ribentrop-Beck pact.

There is even a nice irony here, because after 39 Hitler wanted to create a puppet Poland but Stalin didn't agree and since the Poles didn't want to either, they didn't do it in the end.

Poland sits between Russia and Germany...

Your basically in the murder zone you guys were never going to have a good time.

 

[sillygoose]

Poland sits between Russia and Germany...

Your basically in the murder zone you guys were never going to have a good time.

Which is why there is the argument that picking a side and giving up the notion of being a powerful 3rd way in the middle being viable would have saved a lot of lives and maybe prevented the war entirely.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Technically speaking, many in Poland believe that we should have gone into alliance with Hitler in 39

Then you are fools.

Nazi Germany saw the Poles as subhuman. You were fit only to be a slave race in the eyes of the Third Reich's rulers and any deal you'd have made with them wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on.

 

[sillygoose]

Then you are fools.

Nazi Germany saw the Poles as subhuman. You were fit only to be a slave race in the eyes of the Third Reich's rulers and any deal you'd have made with them wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on.

That as after the war started. Prior Hitler sought a military alliance with Poland that would put them on the level of Italy, that is an ally of equals. Hitler lamented the death of Pilsudski and viewed him as one of the great leaders of Europe and even held a funeral for him in Berlin:

Adolf Hitler attending memorial service of the Polish First Marshall Jozef Pilsudski in Berlin, 1935 - Rare Historical Photos

Adolf Hitler actually greatly admired Pilsudski. In 1939 when the Germans took Kraków, he ordered the Wehrmacht to set at Piłsudski's grave a honor guard.

rarehistoricalphotos.com

The head of Poland Józef Piłsudski died on May 12, 1935. His funeral was made a few days later in Warsaw. But in Berlin, there was a service for Piłsudski ordered by Adolf Hitler.

In the picture, you can see Adolf Hilter during the service for Piłsudski and a symbolic coffin with a Polish flag and eagle. This was the only time that Fuhrer attended a holy mass as a leader of the Third Reich and probably one of the last times when he was in a church.

Why did Hitler attend a funeral of Jozef Pilsudski in 1935? - Axis History Forum

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%B3zef_Pi%C5%82sudski's_cult_of_personality

In spite of his special sympathy for Piłsudski, Hitler sent Ribbentrop to represent the Reich instead of attending Piłsudski's funeral himself. Hitler had an honour guard set at Piłsudski's grave by the Wehrmacht after it took Kraków. He would later say, after attacking Poland, that things wouldn't have turned out that way had old Piłsudski still been alive. He had earlier been, to his excitement, congratulated by Piłsudski on winning the 1933 elections.[12]

Not really how you'd act if you viewed Poles as subhuman.

 

[Skallagrim]

If he had declared neutrality stayed the fuck out of the war and then back stabbed hitler when it was clear where the wind was blowing Italy would be doing much better right now.

There's a non-zero chance the entire world would be doing dramatically better, as if Italy were still a heavily militarized authoritarian state people would have come up with every possible excuse to get them in the "Fuck The Soviets" coalition formally as more boots on the ground, in an exact flip of the Soviets being in the Allies.

Which means Fascism is sustained as a valid political ideology to keep Italy on-hand in case the Soviets try to push forward. Which, in turn, guts the demonization of Nationalism as a concept, thus creating quite the additional barrier to the Leftward lurching of academia.

I'm fine with fascism not being around anymore. I just wished communism was looked upon in the same way since they aren't all the different anyway.

It isn't so much Fascism staying around in perpetuity as the fact that the historic universal demonization "backwashed" into all flavors of Nationalism, thus making state self-interest a lot "dirtier" than it would be if NATO had cause to keep a Fascist country on its side.

Fascism had a lot of nonsense in its frankly muddled ideological whirlpool, and some of that nonsense was inherently harmful. Even discounting the distinct revolutionary streak (always a cause for suspicion), the economic back-drop of fascism was basically analogous to Keynesianism -- and therefore bound to end in utter shit.

That being said: it was a troubled age, and many were looking for extreme solutions to problems the established order could not solve. The alternative, in practice, was communism. Fascism (and I explicitly exclude National Socialism here) was without question the lesser evil. Many at the time noted this.

The irony here is that if Fascism had been opposed to National Socialism, then there can be little question that the Nazis would have veered towards a more permanent pact with Stalin, and the Hitlerist and Stalinist regimes would both be viewed as collectivist tyrannies and Empires of Evil. Deservedly so, incidentally, but that goes without saying.

Fascism, meanwhile, would be viewed positively, but would ultimately sort of fade out s its radical solutions would prove to be not-so-effective in the long term. This would rob fascism of its mythical status as either boogeyman or saviour, and as a result, the shadow of fascism would be less starkly cast over the ATL world than it is in OTL.

Meanwhile, collectivist dictatorships would be the thing universally reviled, and nationalism would still have a good reputation in most circles. Also, many millions of people would be alive who died in OTL, because if Italy had strongly opposed Hitler, there would have been no Anschluss, and there would have been a concerted pact of nations aimed at hemming in Nazi Germany.

My favourity POD to achieve this, by the way, is to have D'Annunzio become the Duce, rather than Mussolini, and to then have Balbo succeed him later. (Both those men despised Hitler.)

 

[Zyobot]

Fascism had a lot of nonsense in its frankly muddled ideological whirlpool, and some of that nonsense was inherently harmful. Even discounting the distinct revolutionary streak (always a cause for suspicion), the economic back-drop of fascism was basically analogous to Keynesianism -- and therefore bound to end in utter shit.

That being said: it was a troubled age, and many were looking for extreme solutions to problems the established order could not solve. The alternative, in practice, was communism. Fascism (and I explicitly exclude National Socialism here) was without question the lesser evil. Many at the time noted this.

The irony here is that if Fascism had been opposed to National Socialism, then there can be little question that the Nazis would have veered towards a more permanent pact with Stalin, and the Hitlerist and Stalinist regimes would both be viewed as collectivist tyrannies and Empires of Evil. Deservedly so, incidentally, but that goes without saying.

Fascism, meanwhile, would be viewed positively, but would ultimately sort of fade out s its radical solutions would prove to be not-so-effective in the long term. This would rob fascism of its mythical status as either boogeyman or saviour, and as a result, the shadow of fascism would be less starkly cast over the ATL world than it is in OTL.

Meanwhile, collectivist dictatorships would be the thing universally reviled, and nationalism would still have a good reputation in most circles. Also, many millions of people would be alive who died in OTL, because if Italy had strongly opposed Hitler, there would have been no Anschluss, and there would have been a concerted pact of nations aimed at hemming in Nazi Germany.

My favourity POD to achieve this, by the way, is to have D'Annunzio become the Duce, rather than Mussolini, and to then have Balbo succeed him later. (Both those men despised Hitler.)

Kinda' digressive here, but even if it's not your go-to divergence, I don't suppose you consider the POD of Footprint of Mussolini a viable option here? I recall you listed it as one of your favorite TLs elsewhere, so I assume it's largely in line with your expectations for how a "fascism as the lesser evil" scenario would roll out.

At any rate, it seems fascism takes communism's place in your outline as the lesser evil who should nonetheless be opposed because they're "anti-American" or "anti-individual liberty", especially if a Cold War between the liberal and fascist blocs emerges after the defeat of the collectivist (i.e.: socialist) dictatorships of Hitler and Stalin. (The fact the Nazis literally branded themselves "National Socialists" and embraced centrally planned, "faux-market" economics not terribly different from the USSR's approach will also help demonize socialism much more than IOTL, so that definitely helps. 🤷‍♂️)

 

[Batrix2070]

Your basically in the murder zone you guys were never going to have a good time.

Well, for centuries it was rather the other way around. The only time it happened similarly to what happened during WWII was in the 11th century. Besides, it was Poland that as a rule kicked its neighbors so hard that they gave up on her. (If it were otherwise there would be no Poland).

We know very well that we will simply never quite be the dream ally for Germany or Russia who always prefer to get along with each other, and an alliance with one of them always means that they will try to turn us into a geographic land rather than an independent country.

It can be said that the IIRP and its defeat and collapse was an accident at work.

Then you are fools.

Nazi Germany saw the Poles as subhuman. You were fit only to be a slave race in the eyes of the Third Reich's rulers and any deal you'd have made with them wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on.

Do you think we are blind? Anyway, it is quite possible to see that Poland's refusal to Hitler's proposal pushed him into a pact with Stalin, and that the peculiar dislike of Poland that Hitler held among Germans erupted anew, but this time Hitler himself turned it upside down with his craziness.
Whether they regarded Poles as subhuman changed over time. First quietly shush, the Germans are nice, then during the war when the Poles won subhuman because they had the audacity to reject our demands then when they started getting their asses handed to them then suddenly the Poles are cool, help us with the Bolsheviks. Another thing is that the general reports during the war rather slowly over time from a negative tone of disdain turned into admiration for Polish intelligence and cleverness and I even remember a quote from some German general that if they had Polish soldiers on German equipment they would have conquered the world.
So the whole thing was not so simple.

Anyway, that alliance with the Allies was awesome, first the hammer fell on us, then they slaughtered a chunk of our nation, and to this day we still feel the losses, and our country was razed to the ground and the capital annihilated, and then came the Soviets "Liberators" who stayed for longer because we were betrayed and handed over for more than 50 years to an inhuman system that destroyed to the end our elites and produced our own red ones who do not even match the old ones.
At the same time this system slowed down our development for half a century, took away the ability to speak as we saw the war, so that the only known tragedy that happened in Poland was that of the Jews, as if the Poles also did not try to kill and turn into slaves without their own culture or language.
And not a few of our cultural works were either stolen by the Germans and never returned or were irretrievably lost because they were destroyed by the Germans or Soviets.
You know, I'm surprised that among our people there is no form of Nazis who would like to raze half of Europe to the ground on principle. And they would love to start by wiping London off the map.
Who would like to slaughter the Germans every last one of them, and the Russians would like transformed into a form of slaves, who have the raw and insensitive power they want according to the steorotypes.

Poles are not a stupid nation, they think if maybe it was better together with Hitler to go to the Soviets and then betray him if he starts trying something. We learned our timeline, the cost we paid and the wounds we suffered continue to this day.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

My favourity POD to achieve this, by the way, is to have D'Annunzio become the Duce, rather than Mussolini, and to then have Balbo succeed him later. (Both those men despised Hitler.)

As I understand it a good chunk of the Grand Fascist Council not only despised the Nazis, they also cringed themselves into orbit over Mussolini's association with them. It really does beggar belief that so many modern fascists lionise National Socialism, when the vicious insanity of the Third Reich dragged fascism into oblivion with it.

They should just cut all ties.

 

[Zyobot]

As I understand it a good chunk of the Grand Fascist Council not only despised the Nazis, they also cringed themselves into orbit over Mussolini's association with them. It really does beggar belief that so many modern fascists lionise National Socialism, when the vicious insanity of the Third Reich dragged fascism into oblivion with it.

They should just cut all ties.

Probably, but at this point, I think it's too late (and frankly, not worth it) to undo nearly eighty years of negative press. That, and even if it were more politically and socially "acceptable", @Skallagrim already noted how given time, fascism was bound to crumble under its own weight (much like communism IOTL).

At best, I think the stigma surrounding generic nationalism (with Classically Liberal characteristics, of course!) can be worn away and reversed as the bad memories fade and public opinion swings the other away, especially in light of globalism's more and more apparent failures to deliver the world that Wilson and his heirs promised. (If anything, I personally think a properly developed, true-to-its-roots "American" nationalism would be ruggedly individualist and anti-authoritarian, unlike its paternalistic and heavy-handed distant European relatives from the prior century.)

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Probably, but at this point, I think it's too late (and frankly, not worth it) to undo nearly eighty years of negative press. That, and even if it were more politically and socially "acceptable", @Skallagrim already noted how given time, fascism was bound to crumble under its own weight (much like communism IOTL).

At best, I think the stigma surrounding generic nationalism (with Classically Liberal characteristics, of course!) can be worn away and reversed as the bad memories fade and public opinion swings the other away, especially in light of globalism's more and more apparent failures to deliver the world that Wilson and his heirs promised.

Oh don't get me wrong, I'm no friend to fascists. I was just reckoning it would be politically expedient for them, and end a lot of chaos in their ideology, if they cut ties with National Socialism.

Given what a mess globalism will leave behind, I think the general public will be very receptive of pre-20th century attitudes to the Nation State. It was always doomed.