History What are some of your most contraversial takes on history?

BlackDragon98

Freikorps Kommandant
Banned - Politics
Anti-Slavism wasn't part of Nazi ideology from the start. It only creeped in after Max von Scheubner-Richter was killed in the 1923 Beer Hall putsch.
Before that there were several influential White Russians who were supporters of the (proto?)Nazi cause, who Scheubner-Richter introduced to Hitler in the early days.
After his death in 1923, the anti-Slavism people like Himmler and Co. had more traction with Hitler and that when the anti-Slavism entered the whole Nazi ideology.
 

stevep

Well-known member
McCarthy was right and we need more McCarthys today. Yeah he's not perfect but communism and socialism needs to be scourged from the world for the exact same reason that fascism needs to be scourged. They're two sides of the same authoritarian coin.

Well there goes the neighbourhood. A pathological liar, who made up most of his 'evidence' is far, far from perfect.

Communism needs to be defeated like any autocratic let alone totalitarian system. [Which is a much wider category than most people realise].

The problem with socialism is it means different things to different people. For the hard right it often means 'anything I don't agree with'.

Both communism and socialism flourish for the same reason. The current system in place operates on behave of a small proportion of the population and the interests of the bulk of the population are often ignored. So there's a very easy way to avoid either of them. Simply treat people as human beings rather than economic units or pawns to be exploited.;)
 

Cherico

Well-known member
Well there goes the neighbourhood. A pathological liar, who made up most of his 'evidence' is far, far from perfect.

Communism needs to be defeated like any autocratic let alone totalitarian system. [Which is a much wider category than most people realise].

The problem with socialism is it means different things to different people. For the hard right it often means 'anything I don't agree with'.

Both communism and socialism flourish for the same reason. The current system in place operates on behave of a small proportion of the population and the interests of the bulk of the population are often ignored. So there's a very easy way to avoid either of them. Simply treat people as human beings rather than economic units or pawns to be exploited.;)


Socialism and communism also treat people like economic units and pawns to be exploited only you know with fewer rights, less food and a much lower standard of living.
 

Abhorsen

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McCarthy was right and we need more McCarthys today. Yeah he's not perfect but communism and socialism needs to be scourged from the world for the exact same reason that fascism needs to be scourged. They're two sides of the same authoritarian coin.
No, McCarthy did more damage to the anticommunist movement than any communist. He lied to the American public about what he knew, and the only reason he named some correct people was that there were so many targets he got them by accident. He lied about his actions in the war, then he lied to a small republican women's meeting, but that went viral, and he was stuck with the big massive lie and thought that the only way out was through. He is one of the worst non-Confederate senators we've ever had.
 

Chaos Marine

Well-known member
Well there goes the neighbourhood. A pathological liar, who made up most of his 'evidence' is far, far from perfect.

Communism needs to be defeated like any autocratic let alone totalitarian system. [Which is a much wider category than most people realise].

The problem with socialism is it means different things to different people. For the hard right it often means 'anything I don't agree with'.

Both communism and socialism flourish for the same reason. The current system in place operates on behave of a small proportion of the population and the interests of the bulk of the population are often ignored. So there's a very easy way to avoid either of them. Simply treat people as human beings rather than economic units or pawns to be exploited.;)
I don't know what you want me to say. Communism and socialism are as evil as fascism. The problem is, most modern academia refuse to label them as such and in fact try to push them as legitimate or workable systems and the impressionable youth eat it up. McCarthy may not have been a perfect bastion of truth of but ultimately his message of communism and socialism being evils that will destroy any society that employs them was correct. Considering there has never been a successful, morally or economically speaking, communist/socialist state, he was right to do so.

Socialism, particularly in the youth, only flourishes because they simply don't know any better. They think that treating everyone the same or everyone deserves equal compensation for their work is good when it's not. I'm earning a decent wage for my work but in no way do I think I should be earning as much as a doctor or surgeon who would have had to go through far more intensive study/training to earn what they earn. Someone who flips burgers for a living shouldn't be earning as much as I do because my job requires more knowledge/training than their job would.

Unfortunately for the proponents of communism and socialism which only ever work on paper (particularly when they refuse to factor in that the real world is too chaotic for them to actually work), only capitalist theory is the only system that even comes to working in the practical sense. It may not be perfect and there are some glaring issues with it like cronyism, it it's still leagues above communism and socialism.

Lastly, minimum wage jobs are not supposed to be something you live on for your whole life. I worked for minimum wage for several years largely to help out my family when I was younger but I studied (while still working) so I could get a better job and before you say anything to that, I come from a single parent family, my earnings from my minimum wage job went to the family and at the advice of my mother, I saved what I had left over (usually between twenty to fifty pounds/euros) to a savings account so by the by the time I was able to go to college, I was able to pay for everything myself.

[Edit] As Cherico points out, in a socialist/communist state slavery exists but to the state rather than other people. Neither of which I support. It's widely agreed that monopolies are bad, communism and socialism could be seen as monopolies themselves when they run everything.

No, McCarthy did more damage to the anticommunist movement than any communist. He lied to the American public about what he knew, and the only reason he named some correct people was that there were so many targets he got them by accident. He lied about his actions in the war, then he lied to a small republican women's meeting, but that went viral, and he was stuck with the big massive lie and thought that the only way out was through. He is one of the worst non-Confederate senators we've ever had.
Which is a shame. As noted towards stevep, he wasn't perfect but his aim was objectively correct. Communism/socialism needs to be seen in the same way fascism is seen.
 

Abhorsen

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Which is a shame. As noted towards stevep, he wasn't perfect but his aim was objectively correct. Communism/socialism needs to be seen in the same way fascism is seen.
No, it's far different than not being perfect. He was straight up a bad person. His motive for the hearings was not being caught in a lie, not hunting down communists, those just happened to line up together. His actions are one of the reasons that communists aren't hated and aren't looked at with suspicion.

What he did was the equivalent randomly firing into a crowd, and happening to hit some terrorists, but not stopping the terrorist attack, and distracting emergency services from dealing with the attack. He is scum, and his name forever marred, as it deserves.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
What he did was the equivalent randomly firing into a crowd, and happening to hit some terrorists, but not stopping the terrorist attack, and distracting emergency services from dealing with the attack. He is scum, and his name forever marred, as it deserves.

I think the bottom line worth considering when it comes to McCarthy is to consider that his actions were literally identical to those of a hypothetical highly placed Communist deep cover agent who wanted to cover up actual Communist intelligence operations by burying them in a storm of highly publicized false accusations against innocent Americans.
 

Abhorsen

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I think the bottom line worth considering when it comes to McCarthy is to consider that his actions were literally identical to those of a hypothetical highly placed Communist deep cover agent who wanted to cover up actual Communist operations by burying them in a storm of highly publicized false accusations against innocent Americans.
Ooh, there's a controversial take: McCarthy was a commie spy! I'll back it, if no one else will.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Ooh, there's a controversial take: McCarthy was a commie spy! I'll back it, if no one else will.

I don't mean he necessarily was a Communist spy; I mean his actions were literally identical to such a hypothetical, which really should highlight just how utterly scummy he was. If anything, his actions are even more contemptible than an actual spy, because an actual spy can be given credit for courage and loyalty to his actual nation, whereas a non-spy McCarthy betrayed his actual nation out of pure cowardice and selfishness.
 

Abhorsen

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I don't mean he necessarily was a Communist spy; I mean his actions were literally identical to such a hypothetical, which really should highlight just how utterly scummy he was. If anything, his actions are even more contemptible than an actual spy, because an actual spy can be given credit for courage and loyalty to his actual nation, whereas a non-spy McCarthy betrayed his actual nation out of pure cowardice and selfishness.
No, I get you, I was joking.
 
The De-Emotionalization Rule and the Abolishment of the no debating the point rules.

Winston Bush

Well-known member
Iā€™m going to make this thread pre-1900 from now on since it will be more distant from current times(thus less emotianally close to home,hopefully making discussion more ā€œLogicalā€). I also hope that by allowing debate of the points that people will be able to reach a more accurate conclussion through it.
 

Lord Sovereign

Well-known member
iā€™m gonna pick a random board member to ask to respond and a random topic:
User: @Lord Sovereign
Topic:Roman Empire.

The Roman Empire's downfall was entirely avoidable and only brought on by one inexplicable bad decision after the other over the course of two hundred years. Also, pencil pushers who craved power but couldn't wield it kept removing the competent leaders.
 

Scottty

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Founder
The Roman Empire's downfall was entirely avoidable and only brought on by one inexplicable bad decision after the other over the course of two hundred years. Also, pencil pushers who craved power but couldn't wield it kept removing the competent leaders.

Do you mean the Western, Latin-speaking half of the empire, or the eastern, Greek-speaking half?
 

stevep

Well-known member
Socialism and communism also treat people like economic units and pawns to be exploited only you know with fewer rights, less food and a much lower standard of living.

My point is who is defining socialism and what do they mean by it? For instance something like old fashioned socialism of the 1st half of the 2nd century, which was a none violent systems that had similar ideas to communism in terms of widespread nationalisation and state control, the sort of social democracy that developed in much of western Europe after WWII or anything which isn't laissez faire capitalism. I would have a broad agreement with your criticism of the 1st but disagree with the 2nd and 3rd, the latter often being used by the Neo-classicalist economists who reject anything but their exact sect of beliefs.

I would also point out that "treat people like economic units and pawns to exploit is also a good definition of the dominant economical thoughts in the Anglo-sphere since ~1980 and that it has often reduced people's rights and living standards.

Basically I'm a believer in a balance, mixed economy rather than some ideologically belief system that claims basically 'this viewpoint is prefect under all circumstances because so and so says so'. As such I reject such ideas from left or right or anywhere else as they reject the basic principle, to me at least, that people matter.
 

stevep

Well-known member
Iā€™m going to make this thread pre-1900 from now on since it will be more distant from current times(thus less emotianally close to home,hopefully making discussion more ā€œLogicalā€). I also hope that by allowing debate of the points that people will be able to reach a more accurate conclussion through it.

Right. Just to let you know I replied to one response to my previous post before I read this but will reframe from responding to the 2nd.
 

Abhishekm

Well-known member
Iā€™m going to make this thread pre-1900 from now on since it will be more distant from current times(thus less emotianally close to home,hopefully making discussion more ā€œLogicalā€). I also hope that by allowing debate of the points that people will be able to reach a more accurate conclussion through it.
Thats a bit far. How about pre 2000s or pre 90s? I mean most of the stuff people know about or have strong opinions on aren't centuries old.
 

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