Winston Bush
Well-known member
Sure. I’ll do it on Sunday.
History What are some of your most contraversial takes on history?
- Thread starter Winston Bush
- Start date
Buba
A total creep
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Now for my hot take!
Operation Barbarossa could have worked. The Nazis were quite correct in that the USSR was such a rotting edifice that if you kicked down the door, the house should down come with it. Stalin's paranoid rule had seen to that.
Funnily enough, if the Germans had advanced in accordance with the rules of war, that would have happened. They'd have been welcomed in the USSR as liberators, with the Western World all but cheering them on. Ironically, the Nazis vicious cuntery drove the Soviet people straight into Stalin's arms, and compelled them to carry on the fight as a war of survival.
Unfortunately, it was pretty much ideologically impossible for the Germans to behave ethically in the invasion of the Soviet Union, since they explicitly classified "Slavs" as subhumans and called for their annihilation.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
Yup.
In many respects, it was the ideology of Nazism that defeated Germany in World War II.
Winston Bush
Well-known member
As well as declaring war on like 70% of the world.
The fall of the Ethipioan monarchy was bad for the country.
The king dispite his faults had been on the winning side of the second world war and had secured the country access to the ocean for its efforts. If left in place Ethiopia could have leveraged the previous good will from the second world war into more aid and industerialized and potentially become a developed nation.
The communist insurgency ultimently just destroyed the countries legitimacy on the world stage, further improverished the country and just made everything worse.
The king dispite his faults had been on the winning side of the second world war and had secured the country access to the ocean for its efforts. If left in place Ethiopia could have leveraged the previous good will from the second world war into more aid and industerialized and potentially become a developed nation.
The communist insurgency ultimently just destroyed the countries legitimacy on the world stage, further improverished the country and just made everything worse.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
So granted as I work in the industry, this is somewhat personal but here's my hot take:
The success of the Royal Navy can be attributed directly to watchmakers, not the British simply being naturally superior seamen. The invention of the sea-clock is a lengthy but interesting one. As the sea-clocks were a closely guarded secret, for some time the Royal Navy were the only ones with them and this period happens to coincide with the Royal Navy winning everything at sea.
In the 1720s, it was impossible to tell where a ship was from east-west. A sextant could reliably determine north-south from the sun but as the sun and stars rotated, there was no way to determine longitude. A large reward was offered for anyone who could devise an instrument with that ability. A carpenter named John Harrison self-taught himself watchmaking and began working towards winning the large prize of twenty thousand pounds offered for success.
John Harrison reckoned that with a sufficiently accurate clock, one could set it to, say, the time in Greenwich and then divide the earth into 24 even sections for hours, then subdivide those into 60 for minutes, and know where you were by what hour your clock indicated vs. when the sun was directly overhead. However clocks of the time were only accurate to within about four minutes a day, and gravity and movement affected the watch's accuracy, a moving clock was less accurate than a stable one, and a clock constantly moving up and down with the waves would only be accurate to within 15 minutes per day which would leave a ship hopelessly off course after a six-month voyage. John Harrison reckoned that if he could get his clock to within 4 seconds a day, a ship would only be off by about 15 miles after six months of journey, which would be easily corrected via spyglass and crow's nest watch.
Harrison's first clock H1 traveled with him to Lisbon and back in 1736 on a test run. The journey there was negative but after adjusting to shipboard life, Harrison was able to tell position so accurately on the return trip that he corrected the Captain's navigation by 60 miles and prevented the ship from entering dangerous waters. Harrison had built a clock hundreds of times more accurate than any other in the world, but still short of his goal.
H2 and 3 were promising but didn't get the accuracy he wanted either. Harrison had to invent a number of new devices ranging from the balance staff to the bimetallic spring that are still used in clocks (and some other instruments) to this day over the next 19 years as he continued to build ever-more-accurate clocks. He built an escapement out of diamond to get a harder and more accurate movements and continued to improve.
H4 went with Harrison's son William aboard HMS Deptford to Jamaica in 1761 (John Harrison himself was 68 years old at this time) and, after crossing the Atlantic, William was able to successfully predict the day they would sight land from the clock. He was correct and the Captain was so impressed he offered his personal fortune to obtain the next Harrison clock. The Journey was 81 days and 5 hours, and H4 was able to predict their position within 1 nautical mile. Captain James Cook would later take a replica of H4 on his famous voyage and his log is filled with praise for how well he could navigate with it. Cook's replica of H4 was then loaned to Captain William Bligh and stolen from him by Fletcher Christian during the famous mutiny on the bounty, and not recovered until 1808.
At this point things turned into a soap opera. Harrison's rival Nevil Maskelyne had attempted the same voyage alongside H4, using his own proposal of measuring Lunar Distance. He was off by 30 nautical miles to H4's 1, but he was also promoted to Astronomer Royal and thus able to be on the Board of Longitude which was responsible for determining if Harrison had succeeded. Maskelyne claimed that while the tests showed Harrison's clock was accurate, in reality the clock had multiple errors that just happened to cancel each other out. He was able to convince the board that more trials were needed, giving himself time to try to win the prize. After another successful test Maskelyne continued to claim the Sea Clock wasn't accurate and it was just a series of inaccuracies that canceled each other out making it appear on time.
Maskelyne would be kicked off of most internet forums for trolling and bad faith debating at this point, but he failed to be kicked from his position of Astronomer Royal, even with the King's intense displeasure at his antics.
King George III personally tested H5 and found it accurate, and put increased pressure on the Board to give Harrison the prize. Parliament did the same. Nevil Maskelyne refused to do so. Things went to the press and Harrison's supporters clashed with Nevil's, both putting out multiple newspaper articles to support their side.
In the end King George III personally gave the prize money to Harrison from his own purse but the board never certified Harrison's clocks and never formally awarded Harrison the acclaim he wanted. He died quite rich but bitter over his treatment. At the end of his life he claimed to have designed a clock that was accurate to 1 second every 100 days, which was soundly mocked for how ludicrous it was for a watch to be so accurate (quartz watches today generally don't meet that standard). He died before completing it, but in 1995 a replica from his plans was built and tested, and was 5/8ths of a second off after 100 days of operation.
In truth Harrison did honestly fail one criterion of the board: He couldn't make his clocks cheaply. A Harrison sea-clock cost about a third what the ship it sailed on did. But the advantages of knowing your exact position at all times were so great that it paid for itself rapidly, ships could travel more quickly, take advantage of trade winds that would get them lost without the navigational aid, and the crews were fresher and healthier from spending less time at sea, and far fewer ships were lost to navigational hazards. Unsurprisingly the Royal Navy, given the ludicrous navigational advantages the sea-clock offered, soon became the pre-eminent navy in the world. Soon insurers refused to insure any vessel without one. Harrison is remembered to this day by Watchmakers and... not really anybody else much.
The success of the Royal Navy can be attributed directly to watchmakers, not the British simply being naturally superior seamen. The invention of the sea-clock is a lengthy but interesting one. As the sea-clocks were a closely guarded secret, for some time the Royal Navy were the only ones with them and this period happens to coincide with the Royal Navy winning everything at sea.
In the 1720s, it was impossible to tell where a ship was from east-west. A sextant could reliably determine north-south from the sun but as the sun and stars rotated, there was no way to determine longitude. A large reward was offered for anyone who could devise an instrument with that ability. A carpenter named John Harrison self-taught himself watchmaking and began working towards winning the large prize of twenty thousand pounds offered for success.
John Harrison reckoned that with a sufficiently accurate clock, one could set it to, say, the time in Greenwich and then divide the earth into 24 even sections for hours, then subdivide those into 60 for minutes, and know where you were by what hour your clock indicated vs. when the sun was directly overhead. However clocks of the time were only accurate to within about four minutes a day, and gravity and movement affected the watch's accuracy, a moving clock was less accurate than a stable one, and a clock constantly moving up and down with the waves would only be accurate to within 15 minutes per day which would leave a ship hopelessly off course after a six-month voyage. John Harrison reckoned that if he could get his clock to within 4 seconds a day, a ship would only be off by about 15 miles after six months of journey, which would be easily corrected via spyglass and crow's nest watch.
Harrison's first clock H1 traveled with him to Lisbon and back in 1736 on a test run. The journey there was negative but after adjusting to shipboard life, Harrison was able to tell position so accurately on the return trip that he corrected the Captain's navigation by 60 miles and prevented the ship from entering dangerous waters. Harrison had built a clock hundreds of times more accurate than any other in the world, but still short of his goal.
H2 and 3 were promising but didn't get the accuracy he wanted either. Harrison had to invent a number of new devices ranging from the balance staff to the bimetallic spring that are still used in clocks (and some other instruments) to this day over the next 19 years as he continued to build ever-more-accurate clocks. He built an escapement out of diamond to get a harder and more accurate movements and continued to improve.
H4 went with Harrison's son William aboard HMS Deptford to Jamaica in 1761 (John Harrison himself was 68 years old at this time) and, after crossing the Atlantic, William was able to successfully predict the day they would sight land from the clock. He was correct and the Captain was so impressed he offered his personal fortune to obtain the next Harrison clock. The Journey was 81 days and 5 hours, and H4 was able to predict their position within 1 nautical mile. Captain James Cook would later take a replica of H4 on his famous voyage and his log is filled with praise for how well he could navigate with it. Cook's replica of H4 was then loaned to Captain William Bligh and stolen from him by Fletcher Christian during the famous mutiny on the bounty, and not recovered until 1808.
At this point things turned into a soap opera. Harrison's rival Nevil Maskelyne had attempted the same voyage alongside H4, using his own proposal of measuring Lunar Distance. He was off by 30 nautical miles to H4's 1, but he was also promoted to Astronomer Royal and thus able to be on the Board of Longitude which was responsible for determining if Harrison had succeeded. Maskelyne claimed that while the tests showed Harrison's clock was accurate, in reality the clock had multiple errors that just happened to cancel each other out. He was able to convince the board that more trials were needed, giving himself time to try to win the prize. After another successful test Maskelyne continued to claim the Sea Clock wasn't accurate and it was just a series of inaccuracies that canceled each other out making it appear on time.
Maskelyne would be kicked off of most internet forums for trolling and bad faith debating at this point, but he failed to be kicked from his position of Astronomer Royal, even with the King's intense displeasure at his antics.
King George III personally tested H5 and found it accurate, and put increased pressure on the Board to give Harrison the prize. Parliament did the same. Nevil Maskelyne refused to do so. Things went to the press and Harrison's supporters clashed with Nevil's, both putting out multiple newspaper articles to support their side.
In the end King George III personally gave the prize money to Harrison from his own purse but the board never certified Harrison's clocks and never formally awarded Harrison the acclaim he wanted. He died quite rich but bitter over his treatment. At the end of his life he claimed to have designed a clock that was accurate to 1 second every 100 days, which was soundly mocked for how ludicrous it was for a watch to be so accurate (quartz watches today generally don't meet that standard). He died before completing it, but in 1995 a replica from his plans was built and tested, and was 5/8ths of a second off after 100 days of operation.
In truth Harrison did honestly fail one criterion of the board: He couldn't make his clocks cheaply. A Harrison sea-clock cost about a third what the ship it sailed on did. But the advantages of knowing your exact position at all times were so great that it paid for itself rapidly, ships could travel more quickly, take advantage of trade winds that would get them lost without the navigational aid, and the crews were fresher and healthier from spending less time at sea, and far fewer ships were lost to navigational hazards. Unsurprisingly the Royal Navy, given the ludicrous navigational advantages the sea-clock offered, soon became the pre-eminent navy in the world. Soon insurers refused to insure any vessel without one. Harrison is remembered to this day by Watchmakers and... not really anybody else much.
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
The Washington Naval Treaty was hopelessly idealistic and helped put Britain and America at an initial disadvantage against Imperial Japan that cost us dearly. Once again a globalist agreement goes to pieces when someone doesn't play ball.
Navarro
Well-known member
Which was required by Nazi ideology, as they needed total autarky (by conquering large amounts of territory) before they could start building "real socialism".
ShieldWife
Marchioness
My controversial takes on history are too controversial even for this thread. Just take your most deeply held beliefs about history, reverse them, and that is me.
Erwin_Pommel
Well-known member
The British Empire was the best thing to happen to the Indian subcontinent and Africa.
KilroywasNOTHere
"BEEP!"
so your a holocaust denier?
Day them
Winston Bush
Well-known member
Counterpoint:
The German logistical capability was already near it’s breaking point during operation barborossa. As well as the fact the west still wouldn’t cheer them on due to being in a war with them. Plus by making the nazis...not nazis you’re making WW2 utterly unrecognizable. Plus despite what you may think the Soviet Army did not just throw men at the enemy and actually had some pretty good tactics later in the war. You also forget that the sheer size of the Soviets territory would mean that they would be able to retreat very far into their territory beyond the german supply lines.
Winston Bush
Well-known member
Christianity was not a cause but a symptom of a broader fall caused by:
Bad Monetary Policies
Plagues
Overextended military
The Migration Of Germanic Tribes Into The Empire
Rampant Inflation of Currency
and many more.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
I was more talking about how the early Roman church was deeply divided on certain issues; such as the nature of the Trinity, and what should be done with Christians who abandoned their faith in the face of persecution. These divides never really went away, and only grew worse over time; serving as a major source of internal conflict for the Empire for the rest of its existence, as well as western civilization as a whole to this very day.
Knowledgeispower
Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
That the allies would have been better off if several planes full of certain officers had tragic accidents. Heck it happened once and got Admiral Lockwood in charge of PACFleets subs which was huge since he listened to his skippers and got the problems of the MK.14 torpedo brought to the attention of Admiral King who basically went ballistic and made fixing it a top priority of BuOrd
We'd probably live in a much better timeline if the Germans won WW1, especially if they won quickly. Key issue is the Germans not humiliating the French too badly.
Israel should have pushed the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank, especially when the Arab states ethnically cleaned their lands of Jews. We'd likely have a far more stable Middle East today.
Israel should have pushed the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank, especially when the Arab states ethnically cleaned their lands of Jews. We'd likely have a far more stable Middle East today.