History What are some of your most contraversial takes on history?

bintananth

behind a desk
Insane thing is, as I understand it that would either be frowned on in Roman society or outright illegal under Roman law. Just goes to show how far off the rails the Southern States had gone.
The Roman upper class actually "bought" highly educated Greek "slaves" to tutor their children from time to time.

EDIT: For me to give both of my daughters that level of individual instruction I'd be spending at least $750k/yr.
 
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ATP

Well-known member
My understaning of slavery in the ancient world:
- you agreed to it in exchange for a whole bunch of up front money and a salary
- you're a POW who chose slavery instead of execution
- your parents sold you into slavery

Or something like that and you could own property and buy your freedom.

That's not how slavery in the US worked. It was illegal for an American slave to own property and/or be literate. Their children were also automatically slaves from the day they were born with no way of ever becoming free except by running away or having a kind master who decided to free them.

Indeed.Fathers could sold their children,not mothers.
If i remember correctly,proletariat come from poor romans who had only childs to sell,nothing else.
Much better then USA,but still worst then most tribes.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Insane thing is, as I understand it that would either be frowned on in Roman society or outright illegal under Roman law. Just goes to show how far off the rails the Southern States had gone.

More or less my understanding, yeah.

Actually, I'm curious as to what the Greeks and Romans would've said about the US abolishing it and contemporary arguments about whether the civil war was fought over slavery? If that's too much of a derail, though, I'll save it for another thread.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
More or less my understanding, yeah.

Actually, I'm curious as to what the Greeks and Romans would've said about the US abolishing it and contemporary arguments about whether the civil war was fought over slavery? If that's too much of a derail, though, I'll save it for another thread.
I'm pretty sure the Ancient Romans and Ancient Greeks would have been absolutely apoplectic when confronted with Southern slavery and Northern abolishionist racism.

They'd have gone "we'll wait unil you're done fighting" before bitchslapping the winner (equal tech) or just shake their heads in confusion (inequal tech).
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
I'm pretty sure the Ancient Romans and Ancient Greeks would have been absolutely apoplectic when confronted with Southern slavery and Northern abolishionist racism.

They'd have gone "we'll wait unil you're done fighing" before bitchslapping the winner (equal tech) or just shake their heads in confusion (inequal tech).

Racism, sure.

But what I was getting at was Greco-Roman reactions to the 13th Amendment, as far as whether they'd say the US should've "regulated" slavery to make it more "humane", or if they'd have agreed that any and all slavery was a lost cause to begin with?
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
But what I was getting at was Greco-Roman reactions to the 13th Amendment, as far as whether they'd say the US should've "regulated" slavery to make it more "humane", or if they'd have agreed that any and all slavery was a lost cause to begin with?
They'd realized the writing was on the wall as soon as the british blockaded African slave trade. The Romans knew full well you can't have a slave economy without a war.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Not sure just how controversial this is nowadays, but Vladimir Lenin was a traitor, parasite, and failure:

 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
They'd realized the writing was on the wall as soon as the british blockaded African slave trade. The Romans knew full well you can't have a slave economy without a war.

Worry not! They'd probably just go off to conquer Mexico or some Caribbean islands in such circumstances. Remember, the default Roman attitude towards geopolitics is expand.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
Worry not! They'd probably just go off to conquer Mexico or some Caribbean islands in such circumstances. Remember, the default Roman attitude towards geopolitics is expand.

Besides, why need slaves when you can rely on cheap black and Mexican labor anyway?

Interestingly enough, when I was in middle school, one of my liberal teachers said that the end of slavery was a mixed blessing for blacks. Sure, the abuse stopped, and they could technically leave and find jobs elsewhere, but with no education and limited skills, their job options were limited, and now their employers could charge them for things such as rent, food, and tools, whereas when they were slaves these things were free, obviously.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
They'd realized the writing was on the wall as soon as the british blockaded African slave trade. The Romans knew full well you can't have a slave economy without a war.
The Romans actually had a protoype steam turbine right around when the New Testament was written. They didn't follow through with that development becasuse "What do we do with all of the slaves?" was a question they didn't have an answer for.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
The Romans actually had a protoype steam turbine right around when the New Testament was written. They didn't follow through with that development becasuse "What do we do with all of the slaves?" was a question they didn't have an answer for.

Interesting. I don't suppose you have a reference handy?
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
The Romans actually had a protoype steam turbine right around when the New Testament was written. They didn't follow through with that development becasuse "What do we do with all of the slaves?" was a question they didn't have an answer for.
Not really, what they had was a steam toy. There were some slightly more complicated designs used to open doors at temples using stean and counterweights, but even then they would never consider a machine like that to to do labor, it was a tool for magic. It would be impossible for Romans to make actual steam engines, they the thousand years of improvements in metalurgy made during the Midaeval period that were required to not have your steam engine not explode on you if you made it do actual work. There were also some improvements made on mechanisms built upon the romans work during the same period that were also needed to do anything useful with a steam engine.
 
Not really, what they had was a steam toy. There were some slightly more complicated designs used to open doors at temples using stean and counterweights, but even then they would never consider a machine like that to to do labor, it was a tool for magic. It would be impossible for Romans to make actual steam engines, they the thousand years of improvements in metalurgy made during the Midaeval period that were required to not have your steam engine not explode on you if you made it do actual work. There were also some improvements made on mechanisms built upon the romans work during the same period that were also needed to do anything useful with a steam engine.

I think the roman's specialized in mainly hydrokinetic power, that kind of thing though it is hard to know how advanced they were because much of the knowledge was/is lost.
 

Doomsought

Well-known member
I think the roman's specialized in mainly hydrokinetic power, that kind of thing though it is hard to know how advanced they were because much of the knowledge was/is lost.
None of the knowledge was lost, just the budget for large infrastructure projects. That is why technology during the Medieval period expanded more towards getting more done with less resources. The one exception was fortifications, which was pretty much a constant climb up from the Roman's square towers to much more sophisticated geometries designed to optimize the utility of archers.
 

Aldarion

Neoreactionary Monarchist
Umm ... the Romans (and the Greeks before them) almost always used free men to crew their warships. Slaves were neither trusted with military hardware nor trusted on the battlefield and a galley was a very expensive piece of military hardware which required a very skilled crew.

Slaves were used on trade galleys. It was only warships that used free men for rowing. Logical, because military rowers were professionals.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Slaves were used on trade galleys. It was only warships that used free men for rowing. Logical, because military rowers were professionals.
An ancient war galley was a very oversized and barely seaworthy canoe with a metal ram and a sail. They were packed with people and if the stem-to-stern rope providing tension and holding the whole thing together broke or got cut practically everyone present drowns.

They knew what they were doing.
 

WolfBear

Well-known member
The Iraq War, as brutal as it was, might have ironically been a lesser evil since Iraq could have turned into an even worse bloodbath during the Arab Spring (even in comparison to the ISIS War) had Saddam Hussein and/or one of his sons remained in power there by that point in time.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
The Romans actually had a protoype steam turbine right around when the New Testament was written.
Not really, what they had was a steam toy. There were some slightly more complicated designs used to open doors at temples using stean and counterweights, but even then they would never consider a machine like that to to do labor, it was a tool for magic. It would be impossible for Romans to make actual steam engines, they the thousand years of improvements in metalurgy made during the Midaeval period that were required to not have your steam engine not explode on you if you made it do actual work.
Heron's invention was really just a demonstration piece, as @Doomsought said. It should be noted that such fanciful inventions were also very much a Greek thing. It's something of a generalisation, but the Greeks were more interested in the science for its own sake, and the Romans were more practically-minded and tended towards a focus on engineering.

(Regarding knowledge being lost, whih got mentioned in this discussion: that did happen. We have examples of Roman notes on Greek scientific texts where the -- educated! -- Roman commenters clearly just don't grasp the complexities of the Greek maths. But note that it's amost always like that: theoretical understanding is sometimes lost, but practical knowledge -- the "know-how" -- is almost always retained.)


None of the knowledge was lost, just the budget for large infrastructure projects. That is why technology during the Medieval period expanded more towards getting more done with less resources.
So this holds up. Although, again, actually a lot of classical knowledge was lost. And had to be re-discovered from the Greek later. But again, it wasn't the practical knowledge that got lost.


They didn't follow through with that development becasuse "What do we do with all of the slaves?" was a question they didn't have an answer for.
This is just incorrect. The Romans never asked that question (nor did the Greeks), and in fact the owners of the larger latifundia (who were the big slave-owners) were typically the most interested in technological improvements that made their systems more efficient.

Until you get to really modern precision-work, slavery can easily be used in mines and in workshops just as well as in the fields. In fact, if the conditions are right, slaves can be used in very modern contexts, too. Consider who physically puts together the iPhones right now. Most of those poor sods aren't formally slaves... but only because that's cheaper for their bosses. Having to actually house and feed them would be more expensive than the few dimes they get as a salary. (Not to mention the prisoners used for brutal slave labour in China, of course.)

Which all goes to show: slavery doesn't impede the development of a modern, technologically advanced economy. On the contrary: modern capitalism tends to just make slavery obsolete... because slaves are simply too expensive. So freeing them and then hiring them back for a pittance is just cheaper than keeping them as your property.
 

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