Battletech Welcome to the Jungle

Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
Most of the answer for this is in the post above. IS techs are just that good. The other half of the question is answered in a word: Logistics. These ‘Mechs aren’t going to get distributed piecemeal, they’re going to get concentrated into Elite formations with excellent logistics.

The Third Royal Guards aren’t going to be short on XLFEs. It isn’t going to happen.
 

Knowledgeispower

Ah I love the smell of missile spam in the morning
Most of the answer for this is in the post above. IS techs are just that good. The other half of the question is answered in a word: Logistics. These ‘Mechs aren’t going to get distributed piecemeal, they’re going to get concentrated into Elite formations with excellent logistics.

The Third Royal Guards aren’t going to be short on XLFEs. It isn’t going to happen.
And if they are short of them something has gone really wrong or they're on a really long campaign
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
Could we move on a bit? It's getting heated, and that's a bit rough on all involoved. You could be right, in story, but people are imperfect, so they do things that aren't optimised, anyway. So, we'll see if @Speaker4thesilent does anything with that, or just leaves it as flavor in the background.

It's not that the new Longbow isn't optimized, it's that the reasoning points to a bunch of potential future issues that are a lot harder to fix after their chapters are written. The lack of apprehension for how poor cooling hamstrings the Archer relative to the Longbow points to a failure to properly account heat which will leave undersinked mechs overperforming. That's most unupgraded mechs and a lot of Clan mechs. And his disdain for LRMs as a direct fire weapon does not bode well for fights involving things like the Mad Dog Prime or Stormcrow D. If I wait and try to convince him after those sorts of things come up in story they'll take a rewrite to fix.

And the Hatchetman wants an XLFE for Speed is Dodge Rating reasons. Moving from 4/6/4 to 5/8/5 thresholds you to the next higher targeting penalty on tabletop. For a more true to life approach, extra engine power means more acceleration and better ability to generate a miss via changes in Delta V, as well as an improved ability to charge into melee with the Choppa.

It is an ammo-dependent design, so it can be kited if you’re enough faster than it is. Honestly, though, the Hatchetman is going to be on the back burner for a while. Expect it to come out quite a bit later than it did in canon. Same as the Wolfhound.
You misunderstood me. I always try to keep any ‘Mech I build at it near max efficient armor.

What I was saying is that even at maximum armor, a 45 ton ‘Mech is pretty squishy. Squishy enough that the extra speed and/or weaponry an XLFE can buy you is worth more than the vulnerability it adds to the side torsos.

45 tons is the size of a Phoenix Hawk. This demonstrates that it could go not just 5/8 but 6/9 with a standard engine. If you use endo do 6/9/6, max armor, and carry one of each laser on top of the hatchet. Not that I think you should unless you have TSM. You'd have six excess cooling with DHS and a hatchet that weighs the same as six small lasers but deals the damage of three.

Being two notches faster might be worth the XL engine vulnerability, but I dispute that 9.5 tons of payload at 6/9 is worth the XL engine vulnerability.
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
Being two notches faster might be worth the XL engine vulnerability, but I dispute that 9.5 tons of payload at 6/9 is worth the XL engine vulnerability.
I think it is worth it. an ER PPC is 7 tons and with 6 leftover tons to play with (as long as you go endo and DHS) you have a rather strong secondary armament. alternately an LB10 is possible though the secondary armament is a bit anemic.

if you put the ERPPC where the autocannon normally goes you can fire it in melee so you can ERPPC for 10 hatchet for 9 and get some medium lasers or SRMs as well as a back up. maybe a mix of LRM 5/10 and a few medium lasers so you can bracket fire them with the ERPPC. came up with LRM 5 and 3 ML. dropped a half ton armor from max for CASE to preserve mech warriors. dropping 1 ML and adding another DHS would be over cooling but it could go to a head mounted small laser and bringing the armor back to max.

with hatchets the break points for efficiency is every 15 tons so 30 45 60 75 90. special mention to the hundred tonner as there is no 105 but it hits for 20 and is a beast.
 
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Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
45 tons is the size of a Phoenix Hawk. This demonstrates that it could go not just 5/8 but 6/9 with a standard engine. If you use endo do 6/9/6, max armor, and carry one of each laser on top of the hatchet. Not that I think you should unless you have TSM. You'd have six excess cooling with DHS and a hatchet that weighs the same as six small lasers but deals the damage of three.

Being two notches faster might be worth the XL engine vulnerability, but I dispute that 9.5 tons of payload at 6/9 is worth the XL engine vulnerability.
Honestly think 5/8/5 is where the Hatchetman wants to live. It's a bit light for a slow medium, but it does let it mount quite heavy weapons for its size. In a long-range fight it has its negatives, but in a close-range brawl in a city or in broken terrain where it can use its jump jets, it can punch well above its weight class. A Dragon, for instance, would not enjoy turning a corner to find itself face to face with a Hatchetman.
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
I've thrown a lance of Hatchetmen at a force as a Headhunter unit. Pun intended.

My campaign group's CO was NOT happy with his GM after that! 😈

The Headhunter lance was part of a force facing a Drac invasion on a fairly important world shortly after the Hatchetman was being fielded.

Lance XO was placed in an ad hoc lance to bait a Drac Cmd lance into a 1v1 fight. XO led the Drac CO on a bit of a chase till he became cornered in a dead end (urban fiht of course). Then the other 3 Hatchetmen moved out of concealed positions and started disassembling the Drac's 'mech...IIRC it was a Warhammer.
 
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.IronSun.

Member
How do MG's compare between tabletop and Harebrained!Battletech? Because a surprise hatchet to a weak spot in your armor followed by some MG's sandblasting your internals was always hilariously effective for me
 

PsihoKekec

Swashbuckling Accountant
Anti-infantry work and point-blank crit seeking seem the best uses. Hit on the ammo bin will vaporize the mech though
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
I think it is worth it. an ER PPC is 7 tons and with 6 leftover tons to play with (as long as you go endo and DHS) you have a rather strong secondary armament. alternately an LB10 is possible though the secondary armament is a bit anemic.

if you put the ERPPC where the autocannon normally goes you can fire it in melee so you can ERPPC for 10 hatchet for 9 and get some medium lasers or SRMs as well as a back up. maybe a mix of LRM 5/10 and a few medium lasers so you can bracket fire them with the ERPPC. came up with LRM 5 and 3 ML. dropped a half ton armor from max for CASE to preserve mech warriors. dropping 1 ML and adding another DHS would be over cooling but it could go to a head mounted small laser and bringing the armor back to max.
There are two problems with that. First, trading away durability means that on average your XL version will have fewer turns of useful combat. Second, until you've displaced all light mechs from your forces price matters. Two standard engine mediums are better than an XL engined medium and the bugmech you have to put in the other mech cubicle because you blew your budget on an XL engine.

And if you aren't happy with the long range firepower you can fit with a standard engine the first thing to do is get rid of the three ton millstone on the right arm. That gets you 60% of an ERLL. Hatchets just aren't worth it without TSM.

Honestly think 5/8/5 is where the Hatchetman wants to live. It's a bit light for a slow medium, but it does let it mount quite heavy weapons for its size. In a long-range fight it has its negatives, but in a close-range brawl in a city or in broken terrain where it can use its jump jets, it can punch well above its weight class. A Dragon, for instance, would not enjoy turning a corner to find itself face to face with a Hatchetman.
At 5/8 there's even less need to use an XL engine. You can get the 4 tons for a 225 rated standard engine and gyro upgrade and the 3 tons to max the armor just by switching the AC-10 for an ERPPC and switching to double heatsinks leaving endosteel and ferro-fibrous savings for other things.

How do MG's compare between tabletop and Harebrained!Battletech? Because a surprise hatchet to a weak spot in your armor followed by some MG's sandblasting your internals was always hilariously effective for me
On tabletop you have both a melee phase and a weapon fire phase so you aren't limited to firing machineguns and small lasers with your melee attack. What you can't do is fire anything in the limb making the melee attack. So the stock Hatchetman can fire it's left hand medium laser, it's autocannon, and strike with its hatchet, but it can't fire its right hand medium laser. If the right hand medium laser was replaced with a pair of smalls it still wouldn't be able to fire them with the hatchet.
 

Speaker4thesilent

Crazed Deplorable
At 5/8 there's even less need to use an XL engine. You can get the 4 tons for a 225 rated standard engine and gyro upgrade and the 3 tons to max the armor just by switching the AC-10 for an ERPPC and switching to double heatsinks leaving endosteel and ferro-fibrous savings for other things.
But then you don't have a 45-tonner that can headcap with it's main gun.

Blank Look Intensifies.
 

Atarlost

Well-known member
But then you don't have a 45-tonner that can headcap with it's main gun.

Blank Look Intensifies.
There's nothing special about being 45 tons. You can get an LB-10X into a 50 or 55 tonner at 5/8/5 with a standard engine if you ditch the waste of mass hatchet and you can get more of them than you can get XL engined 45 tonners. If you had endosteel in production you could do it at 45 tons.
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
There are two problems with that. First, trading away durability means that on average your XL version will have fewer turns of useful combat. Second, until you've displaced all light mechs from your forces price matters. Two standard engine mediums are better than an XL engined medium and the bugmech you have to put in the other mech cubicle because you blew your budget on an XL engine.
generally agree on the XL engines. I prefer leaving things standard generally. but that 6 9 6 move profile is solid. the armor loses the least efficient half ton of armor but is otherwise full. and from a story perspective CASE will save the pilot so I think you would go for it over full armor. at long range it is LRM 5 and a ER PPC with the ability to dissipate 22 heat it can jump 6 fire and generate 1 heat if it runs no heat. short range but not mid it is ER PPC and 2 medium lasers if it walks it is heat neutral if it runs it generates 1 heat. in melee it can shoot the 2 ML and ERPPC as well as hatchet for 5 5 10 9 in damage ideally you will want the side or rear but if the mech is worn down a bit you can totally cripple or kill from the front.

It moves like a phoenix hawk, shoots like a vindicator at long range, has as solid of armor as can be expected of a 45 tonner, and is a beast in melee which the speed means it can get into. is it expensive yup. would I field it table top? maybe it would be expensive. 1398 BV is a big ask for a medium for me. if I was trying to make a mech that was a beast in melee and had a great chance of getting there while still being able to provide some support at range if closing was unfeasible this is where my mind goes. going bigger is a possibility but that means the mech slows down changing the role from a hmm... almost light cavalry/pursuit role to more the heavy cavalry/line breaker role.

both are useful but getting a 60 tonner to 6 9 6 is also expensive. can't really work LRMs in so the ERPPC has 3.5 tons left and little to spend it on. went down .5 ton armor again and slapped 4 ML on it. 1615 BV. suppose I could drop the jump jets and get 6 more tons to work with. definitely would be changing the move profile.
 
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Atarlost

Well-known member
generally agree on the XL engines. I prefer leaving things standard generally. but that 6 9 6 move profile is solid. the armor loses the least efficient half ton of armor but is otherwise full. and from a story perspective CASE will save the pilot so I think you would go for it over full armor. at long range it is LRM 5 and a ER PPC with the ability to dissipate 22 heat it can jump 6 fire and generate 1 heat if it runs no heat. short range but not mid it is ER PPC and 2 medium lasers if it walks it is heat neutral if it runs it generates 1 heat. in melee it can shoot the 2 ML and ERPPC as well as hatchet for 5 5 10 9 in damage ideally you will want the side or rear but if the mech is worn down a bit you can totally cripple or kill from the front.

It moves like a phoenix hawk, shoots like a vindicator at long range, has as solid of armor as can be expected of a 45 tonner, and is a beast in melee which the speed means it can get into. is it expensive yup. would I field it table top? maybe it would be expensive. 1398 BV is a big ask for a medium for me. if I was trying to make a mech that was a beast in melee and had a great chance of getting there while still being able to provide some support at range if closing was unfeasible this is where my mind goes. going bigger is a possibility but that means the mech slows down changing the role from a hmm... almost light cavalry/pursuit role to more the heavy cavalry/line breaker role.

both are useful but getting a 60 tonner to 6 9 6 is also expensive. can't really work LRMs in so the ERPPC has 3.5 tons left and little to spend it on. went down .5 ton armor again and slapped 4 ML on it. 1615 BV. suppose I could drop the jump jets and get 6 more tons to work with. definitely would be changing the move profile.
There's one really, really big problem with that notion. The guy who said he thinks the Hatchetman should move 5/8/5 is the author. Any discussion of Hatchetman concepts that don't move at 5/8/5 after that are definitely off topic.

And if you're going 5/8/5 you should be 55 tons. And the way punch damage rounds you probably shouldn't be using a hatchet unless you're at a multiple of 10 tons because it'll do 1 less damage than two punches. And you should have the battlefist quirk, which gives fists the same bonus as hatchets. And I am, in fact, describing a canonical succession wars battlemech already produced by Defiance Industries. Makes the existence of the Hatchetman a real head scratcher.

Also, BV does not exist in-universe. In BV an XL engine actually has negative cost because it makes your mech fragile. Whether you think C-bills are reasonable or not (and the late succession wars and early renaissance are when the pricing was designed for) a system of valuation where an XL engine is cheaper than a standard engine can not be taken as having anything to do with what people in-universe are paying for mechs. The only time you should bring up BV in a story discussion is when talking about Clan bidding.
 

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