Battletech Welcome to the Jungle

[Atarlost]

Victor is in production on Quentin.

I'd apparently successfully repressed my memory of that abomination against good sense.

Quentin and St. Ives production sites make it a thing the Dracs are very unlikely to want to not come crashing to the ground if it tries to stand on one of their buildings and not something the FWL would be particularly keen on supporting, though unlike the Dracs they're probably not particularly eager to sacrifice civilian urban buildings to inconvenience their enemies. There's also not particularly much reason to reinforce to that degree on the Lyran border where neither side has been fielding stuff over 65 tons that can actually get onto a roof.

Building a non-mechproof building near a border is like building a non-earthquake-safe building near a faultline. Something that people do quite frequently if not forced to build to higher standards by building codes. I can't imagine either a nation as internally divided as the FWL nor as uncaring of its subject's wellfare as the Combine enforcing such codes generally. Maybe some wealthy and paranoid border worlds in the FWL have such standards for mechs not being fielded by their own militia or common in their nations national forces, but if the Combine is enforcing mech safety building codes they're probably something like "must support a Panther but collapse if someone tries to stand a Phoenix Hawk on it unless it's an important enough building to merit maximum reinforcement against deliberate bombardment" because the DCMS seems to have a policy or stripping jumpjets from everything but Panthers and Quickdraws in this era and Quickdraws are not designed to be rooftop snipers.

You are right that it's a 90 tonner. However, it stopped production on Son Hoa, in the Lyran Commonwealth.

I can't find a surviving site off Terra which means the Comguards have them, but anyone else should get significant numbers only if it serves Blake's Vision. Starcorps' Fletcher site was destroyed in the 1SW and Hollis lost their factories in the second. Something like a sudden deal to supply the Capellans or some of their long term contracted mercs going through after Maximillian Liao was replaced by a doppelganger if we go with that theory for his personality change might have effected new construction in the FWL near the border after a few years, but wouldn't probably be enough to lead to mass refits.

 

[Blasterbot]

Building a non-mechproof building near a border is like building a non-earthquake-safe building near a faultline. Something that people do quite frequently if not forced to build to higher standards by building codes. I can't imagine either a nation as internally divided as the FWL nor as uncaring of its subject's wellfare as the Combine enforcing such codes generally.

Bribery and corruption are an unfortunate reality. if it is cheaper to pay off the inspector than build to code some people lacking scruples will do so.

not a huge fan of the re design as losing the massive LRM racks kinda defeats the purpose of the long bow. would have to put thought into a redesign myself.

there is a variant that does a quad 15 launcher and playing around in mechlab with double heat sinks and endo I was able to make a 3/5 mover with solid armor and 8 back up medium lasers. would shred at long range and preserve indirect fire. you can do a 4/6 with the Lrm 20s but that is not quite as much bite. might spend some time playing around with arm mounted 15s and see what we can do for big punch in the torso.

with arm mounted 15s I was able to go with an LB10 in each torso I got case and 2 tons of ammo for each weapon. as a 3/5 mover we got a choice between 13.5 tons of armor and jump jets or maxing the armor at 16.5. heat might as well not exist for the mech as even if you go with the hypothetical jump 3 and fire everything the engine heat sinks are over cooling.

I still lean to the quad 15s. indirect fire is useful and using no advanced weapons means we can avoid competing for other advanced weapons.

 

[Speaker4thesilent]

not a huge fan of the re design as losing the massive LRM racks kinda defeats the purpose of the long bow. would have to put thought into a redesign myself.

there is a variant that does a quad 15 launcher and playing around in mechlab with double heat sinks and endo I was able to make a 3/5 mover with solid armor and 8 back up medium lasers. would shred at long range and preserve indirect fire. you can do a 4/6 with the Lrm 20s but that is not quite as much bite. might spend some time playing around with arm mounted 15s and see what we can do for big punch in the torso.

As I’ve mentioned before, if you go full or even mostly LRM, you lose a lot of the potential of an Assault ‘Mech chassis. An LRM platform wants to stay back or ideally out of sight entirely and bombard the enemy without the enemy being able to respond. But an Assault Mech is meant to soak up damage.

They are the platonic ideal of the Distraction Carnifex ploy, because if you ignore them to hit more fragile targets, they’re closing in on you the whole time, punishing you for ignoring them, but if you focus fire on them, they just eat up the damage and ask for more.

The Longbow ... doesn’t fill this role. It vomits LRMs in slightly heavier amounts than the Archer does, sure. But, uh. It’s actually pretty underwhelming in other ways. If you want a fifty LRM throw weight, you can get there with a tank much more easily, much more cheaply, and without occupying a slot in your assault Lance that can be better filled by, say, an Awesome or a Battlemaster.

When the Commonwealth already produces a wealth of Assault ‘Mechs and currently makes both the Archer and the Crusader (and will soon be adding the Crossbow and the Steurmfeur) they have LRM platforms covered. Going for the proposed refit makes the Longbow a nasty brawler at mid-long and medium range that has the equivalent of three SRM racks worth of Crit-seeking when armor starts getting holes punched in it. And it maintains the Longbow’s existing heat management capabilities and armor. Giving it the ability to fly for short distances enhances the ‘Mech’s combat capabilities by letting it flank in rough terrain and be more agile than expected against those trying to flank it in turn.

It isn’t perfect, but it fits Katrina’s demands while being something that they can accomplish relatively quickly. Since failing either of those benchmarks means loss of prestige and maybe even financial insolvency ...

 

[bobnik]

As I’ve mentioned before, if you go full or even mostly LRM, you lose a lot of the potential of an Assault ‘Mech chassis. An LRM platform wants to stay back or ideally out of sight entirely and bombard the enemy without the enemy being able to respond. But an Assault Mech is meant to soak up damage.

They are the platonic ideal of the Distraction Carnifex ploy, because if you ignore them to hit more fragile targets, they’re closing in on you the whole time, punishing you for ignoring them, but if you focus fire on them, they just eat up the damage and ask for more.

The Longbow ... doesn’t fill this role. It vomits LRMs in slightly heavier amounts than the Archer does, sure. But, uh. It’s actually pretty underwhelming in other ways. If you want a fifty LRM throw weight, you can get there with a tank much more easily, much more cheaply, and without occupying a slot in your assault Lance that can be better filled by, say, an Awesome or a Battlemaster.

When the Commonwealth already produces a wealth of Assault ‘Mechs and currently makes both the Archer and the Crusader (and will soon be adding the Crossbow and the Steurmfeur) they have LRM platforms covered. Going for the proposed refit makes the Longbow a nasty brawler at mid-long and medium range that has the equivalent of three SRM racks worth of Crit-seeking when armor starts getting holes punched in it. And it maintains the Longbow’s existing heat management capabilities and armor. Giving it the ability to fly for short distances enhances the ‘Mech’s combat capabilities by letting it flank in rough terrain and be more agile than expected against those trying to flank it in turn.

It isn’t perfect, but it fits Katrina’s demands while being something that they can accomplish relatively quickly. Since failing either of those benchmarks means loss of prestige and maybe even financial insolvency ...

So Katrina has an embarrassment of riches in the Longbow's tactical slot, and thus luxury to go hunting for "better or best" over "good enough"?

 

[Blasterbot]

As I’ve mentioned before, if you go full or even mostly LRM, you lose a lot of the potential of an Assault ‘Mech chassis. An LRM platform wants to stay back or ideally out of sight entirely and bombard the enemy without the enemy being able to respond. But an Assault Mech is meant to soak up damage.

They are the platonic ideal of the Distraction Carnifex ploy, because if you ignore them to hit more fragile targets, they’re closing in on you the whole time, punishing you for ignoring them, but if you focus fire on them, they just eat up the damage and ask for more.

The Longbow ... doesn’t fill this role. It vomits LRMs in slightly heavier amounts than the Archer does, sure. But, uh. It’s actually pretty underwhelming in other ways. If you want a fifty LRM throw weight, you can get there with a tank much more easily, much more cheaply, and without occupying a slot in your assault Lance that can be better filled by, say, an Awesome or a Battlemaster.

When the Commonwealth already produces a wealth of Assault ‘Mechs and currently makes both the Archer and the Crusader (and will soon be adding the Crossbow and the Steurmfeur) they have LRM platforms covered. Going for the proposed refit makes the Longbow a nasty brawler at mid-long and medium range that has the equivalent of three SRM racks worth of Crit-seeking when armor starts getting holes punched in it. And it maintains the Longbow’s existing heat management capabilities and armor. Giving it the ability to fly for short distances enhances the ‘Mech’s combat capabilities by letting it flank in rough terrain and be more agile than expected against those trying to flank it in turn.

It isn’t perfect, but it fits Katrina’s demands while being something that they can accomplish relatively quickly. Since failing either of those benchmarks means loss of prestige and maybe even financial insolvency ...

is likely because I tend to think more in terms of lance or greater levels that I don't mind the longbow so much. and looking at the cannon variants DHS and endo saves enough weight to make it worth while. as in you can in fact solve all the problems mentioned upping the armor and armaments.

the quad 15 variant is basically 2 catapults welded together. trying to underrun the min range means getting danger close with 8 IS mediums on a mech that dissipates 22 heat a turn. there is no mech that wants to eat that much long range firepower and if they close that is a sway back hunchback that can fire 7-8 ML every turn. if it has lance mates that have a good hole puncher with 10+ damage it will ruin someone's day. and if anything that isn't a heavy brawler approaches it will get shredded.

the dual 15 dual lb10 gives it some real dangerous longer range slugs while allowing the LRMs to do the crit seeking and might not bother with cluster rounds or go with a reduced load for them.

at the end of the day I might disagree with it and Katarina here but that is fine. I just think that the indirect fire capabilities are worth preserving and that the 2 lrm 5s are a bit insufficient for it.

edit plus the fun that is alternate payloads for missiles later on. but that isn't now and won't factor into the decision.

edit 2 now that you point out those other mech I am going to have to look at them and see if we can make something fun with the DHS and endo.

 

[Speaker4thesilent]

So Katrina has an embarrassment of riches in the Longbow's tactical slot, and thus luxury to go hunting for "better or best" over "good enough"?

Very this. When the Succession Wars were at their worst, and it looked like the Inner Sphere was going to go full Dork Age, any ‘Mech was a good ‘Mech. But this is the twilight years of the Third Succession War. Shit is getting better. For heaven sake, Duke Brewer actually mothballed his Sentinel line a couple years back!

The better is no longer always the enemy of the good, and Archon Katrina has decided to engage in some much-needed pruning.

is likely because I tend to think more in terms of lance or greater levels that I don't mind the longbow so much. and looking at the cannon variants DHS and endo saves enough weight to make it worth while. as in you can in fact solve all the problems mentioned upping the armor and armaments.

the quad 15 variant is basically 2 catapults welded together. trying to underrun the min range means getting danger close with 8 IS mediums on a mech that dissipates 22 heat a turn. there is no mech that wants to eat that much long range firepower and if they close that is a sway back hunchback that can fire 7-8 ML every turn. if it has lance mates that have a good hole puncher with 10+ damage it will ruin someone's day. and if anything that isn't a heavy brawler approaches it will get shredded.

the dual 15 dual lb10 gives it some real dangerous longer range slugs while allowing the LRMs to do the crit seeking and might not bother with cluster rounds or go with a reduced load for them.

at the end of the day I might disagree with it and Katarina here but that is fine. I just think that the indirect fire capabilities are worth preserving and that the 2 lrm 5s are a bit insufficient for it.

edit plus the fun that is alternate payloads for missiles later on. but that isn't now and won't factor into the decision.

edit 2 now that you point out those other mech I am going to have to look at them and see if we can make something fun with the DHS and endo.

That’s fine. I am always glad to get thread participation. It feeds my muse.

I also I am thinking in terms of a Lance force structure. The Commonwealth loves the Zeus. It has an enduring love affair with the design, likely because Defiance produces them in greater numbers than any other Assault ‘Mech due to the combination of two lines and their relatively light weight (also, because they’re fucking DefHes, and the only way you beat their production numbers is by cheating.)

Both major Zeus variants mount an LRM-15.

The Atlas mounts an LRM-20. The Stalker? A pair of -10s.

Any given Assault Lance generally has the indirect firepower of a dedicated LRM boat distributed throughout the ranks. It doesn’t need a dedicated fire support platform the way lighter weight units do.

And, frankly, if it does manage to get into trouble that it can’t handle? A Lance of Assaults should never be wandering around by themselves. They should be deployed as part of at least a battalion-sized force. Somewhere in that force, there should be fire support specialists on call.

 

[Blasterbot]

Zeus has some endurance issues with the LRM. there is some utility to it though as without case being able to fire 8 loads and not need to worry about ammo in the left side is not the worst design. won't argue that the lance itself tends to have LRM 40-80 in and of itself. just that LRMs are generally great and I like having lots of them bracketed with medium lasers. there is a reason I love the treb and the catapult and the longbow while it has issues is very worthwhile depending on tactics.

still playing around in the heavy spectrum but with DHS and endo you can up armor a grffin give it CASE, an ER ppc, and up it's LRM to an LRM 15 while keeping the 2 tons of ammo. alternately leave the lrm a 10 and slap on 2 standard medium lasers for bracketing with the LRM 10. mech runs cool as long as you aren't jumping. and if you are just turn off the missiles for a turn.

with the current long bow (pre upgrades) I would deploy it with heavy mechs that are also long range focused (archers thuds catapults) deployed with a screening force or a couple more generalist mechs that still can throw some weight at long range.

 

[Speaker4thesilent]

Zeus has some endurance issues with the LRM. there is some utility to it though as without case being able to fire 8 loads and not need to worry about ammo in the left side is not the worst design. won't argue that the lance itself tends to have LRM 40-80 in and of itself. just that LRMs are generally great and I like having lots of them bracketed with medium lasers. there is a reason I love the treb and the catapult and the longbow while it has issues is very worthwhile depending on tactics.

still playing around in the heavy spectrum but with DHS and endo you can up armor a grffin give it CASE, an ER ppc, and up it's LRM to an LRM 15 while keeping the 2 tons of ammo. alternately leave the lrm a 10 and slap on 2 standard medium lasers for bracketing with the LRM 10. mech runs cool as long as you aren't jumping. and if you are just turn off the missiles for a turn.

with the current long bow (pre upgrades) I would deploy it with heavy mechs that are also long range focused (archers thuds catapults) deployed with a screening force or a couple more generalist mechs that still can throw some weight at long range.

I grok your love of the LRM. Indirect fire is pretty nice, but I’m pretty sure that some of the utility comes from munitions that aren’t in production yet.

The other sort of issue is that with the improved technology that’s becoming available, LRMs aren’t as efficient as the more advanced weapons. I’m not saying they don’t have their niche, because they absolutely do, but the ERPPC/ML meta is real.

In most of the refits I’m doing, I’m deliberately keeping close to the original loadout, otherwise I tend to discover I’ve built multiple copies of the same ‘Mech, just adjusted for different weights.

 

[Simonbob]

In most of the refits I’m doing, I’m deliberately keeping close to the original loadout, otherwise I tend to discover I’ve built multiple copies of the same ‘Mech, just adjusted for different weights.

The moment I think about role, that changes, when I'm thinking about it.

Might just be me, though.

 

[Blasterbot]

In most of the refits I’m doing, I’m deliberately keeping close to the original loadout, otherwise I tend to discover I’ve built multiple copies of the same ‘Mech, just adjusted for different weights.

this might be the thing where we break apart. LB10s are strong and have fair range but not quite what LRMs have and they lose most the indirect fire. so from your end you think the Assault weight LRM boat is an unneeded role that can be made up for with combined arms and smaller mechs that can deploy dual 15s and 20s. I think that especially when pointing at the potential of a quad 15 the assault class can bring a lot to the table as a LRM missile boat. better armored and more mobile than a vehicle. more missiles than the heavys or mediums can bring and it is cheaper to bring 1 longbow over 2 medium or heavy mechs.

Archer I might have been a bit lazy with the upgrade endo and DHS came up as 6 ML and 2 LRM 20s with 4 tons of ammo total case and as much armor as I could cram in.

catapult I am debating on still. keeping the movement is important as a 4\6\4 not sure if we go LRM 20 for focus on fire support or stick with 15s and see if we could get some more serious secondary armaments. if I go 15s we can slap 6 MLs which is good close in and has 13 tons of armor and CASE. could swap 5 MLs for a large and have some play with the heat and a bit of mid range punch added on that doesn't care about minimum range. could also drop it all and go down to 12 tons of armor and add in a normal PPC for shits and giggles. the minimums would hurt but very solid range and only movement generates heat.

edit very dumb idea calling it catapult K 1/2 one side with an ER PPC 1 side with a LRM 20 and 3 tons of ammo and 3 standard medium lasers and 2 additional DHS 12.5 tons of armor and Case on 1 side for the LRM ammo. I like it more than I should. ERPPC and 3ML is heat neutral, jump and fire ERPPC and LRM 20 is neutral.

 

[Speaker4thesilent]

better armored and more mobile than a vehicle.

Hoooookay. So. Longbow: 50 LRMs per turn. Cost: 7.4 million C-bills.

SturmFeur. Tank. Same movement speed as the Longbow at 3/5, with an ICE engine. 40 LRMs/turn. Cost: 2.4 million C-bills.

LRM Carrier. Tank. Also moves at 3/5. 60 LRMs/turn at the cost of armor like tin foil. Cost: 1.9 million C-bills.

So that’s 120 LRMs per turn versus 50 going C-Bill to C-Bill if you care about your crews surviving and 180 versus 50 if you don’t mind dealing with Quikscam.

The Longbow. Is not. Cost effective. The only reason to use it is for its qualities as an Assault ‘Mech, which it employs badly. It isn’t as big of a lemon as the original variety, but that isn’t saying much.

 

[Blasterbot]

Vehicles tend to get bogged down in terrain and eat motive hits losing what little mobility that they have. cost wise I was pointing out that it is cheaper than 2 smaller mechs not that it was cheaper than vehicles. I am a fan of combined arms in battletech but recognizing that vehicles while cheaper and able to bring an outsized amount of firepower tend to fold very quickly to return firepower if they aren't very well armored. admittedly the SturmFuer is but that is still going to deal with the weaknesses of tracked vehicles. BV and C-bills are not related and sometimes that gets confusing with BT.

 

[Bear Ribs]

Hoooookay. So. Longbow: 50 LRMs per turn. Cost: 7.4 million C-bills.

SturmFeur. Tank. Same movement speed as the Longbow at 3/5, with an ICE engine. 40 LRMs/turn. Cost: 2.4 million C-bills.

LRM Carrier. Tank. Also moves at 3/5. 60 LRMs/turn at the cost of armor like tin foil. Cost: 1.9 million C-bills.

So that’s 120 LRMs per turn versus 50 going C-Bill to C-Bill if you care about your crews surviving and 180 versus 50 if you don’t mind dealing with Quikscam.

The Longbow. Is not. Cost effective. The only reason to use it is for its qualities as an Assault ‘Mech, which it employs badly. It isn’t as big of a lemon as the original variety, but that isn’t saying much.

Hmm... but isn't that true of nearly everything in BT? If you just look at weapons loadout vs. cost the tank wins every time.

Panther: PPC, SRM-4, 5/8 movement, 2.4 Million C-Bills
LTV-4 Hovertank: PPC, SRM-4, 7/11 movement 1.5 Million C-Bills, significantly more armor

The difference is in the 'mech being able to move through other terrains than "flat," being piloted by one person instead of a group, and the vehicle losing speed permanently every other time it takes a hit even if it still has armor left. Plus due to how hit locations work, punching through a tank's armor in any spot kills it but a 'mech just fights on with a lost arm or even lost torso section.

 

[Knowledgeispower]

I will note that its not like the LCAF is ditching LRM heavy Mechs it's just not wanting to buy LRM heavy assault mechs.

 

[Speaker4thesilent]

Vehicles tend to get bogged down in terrain and eat motive hits losing what little mobility that they have. cost wise I was pointing out that it is cheaper than 2 smaller mechs not that it was cheaper than vehicles. I am a fan of combined arms in battletech but recognizing that vehicles while cheaper and able to bring an outsized amount of firepower tend to fold very quickly to return firepower if they aren't very well armored. admittedly the SturmFuer is but that is still going to deal with the weaknesses of tracked vehicles. BV and C-bills are not related and sometimes that gets confusing with BT.

Hmm... but isn't that true of nearly everything in BT? If you just look at weapons loadout vs. cost the tank wins every time.

Panther: PPC, SRM-4, 5/8 movement, 2.4 Million C-Bills
LTV-4 Hovertank: PPC, SRM-4, 7/11 movement 1.5 Million C-Bills, significantly more armor

The difference is in the 'mech being able to move through other terrains than "flat," being piloted by one person instead of a group, and the vehicle losing speed permanently every other time it takes a hit even if it still has armor left. Plus due to how hit locations work, punching through a tank's armor in any spot kills it but a 'mech just fights on with a lost arm or even lost torso section.

Again, this would be a big deal in a main battle tank.

These are LRM vehicles. They are primarily only vulnerable to LRMs either because of range or LoS. We’re also discussing these various machines in the context of the story, which is very much not the tabletop. Fog of war matters more because you can’t just look down from above and see where the enemy is positioned and how to get line of sight on them. Tanks positioned hull-down in good fighting positions with top cover become very difficult to kill, indeed. There are reasons to use LRM-heavy ‘Mechs, just generally not when they are both one-trick ponies and in the Assault category.

 

[Orangeduke38]

I was rereading the story and I just realized that since CAC and Defiance agreed not to compete in certain areas will this mean that the Hatchetman will not be developed?

 

[Satorious]

I was rereading the story and I just realized that since CAC and Defiance agreed not to compete in certain areas will this mean that the Hatchetman will not be developed?

Incorrect CAC has a Deal with Olivetti to stay out of heavies and medium mechs respectfully. Weber has a agreement in priceable to license his Banshee Variant to Defiance (and possible to produce xlfe 380's to teach Defiance Techs) but more negotiations are to fallow on it. Now the Hatchetman due to Lostech being avalible early might be butterflied away but not because of Weber's deals with Defiance.

 

[Vilegrave]

Hatchetman would actually end up being even scarier if they can scrounge up some XL engines for it, the extra space could let it go even faster or maybe even wield double Hatchets if they can fit Endo Steel as well.

 

[paulobrito]

Hatchetman would actually end up being even scarier if they can scrounge up some XL engines for it, the extra space could let it go even faster or maybe even wield double Hatchets if they can fit Endo Steel as well.

And with an XLFE even more fragile...

 

[PsihoKekec]

Yeah, it's a close quarters combatant, survivability is a must.