It's an area of the world that has been at war with itself and has had multiple times, been calling for the death of us all.
The War in Afghanistan
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Yinko
Well-known member
There are shame, guilt and fear cultures, which means that in geo-politics there are three different games being played. If you are a one-game kind of guy then you lose because most of the other players aren't playing by your rules.
If you are faced with a fear based player then you have to pivot to fear based rule sets and crush them under you heal, utterly.
If you are faced with a shame based player then you have to pivot to shame based rule sets and humiliate them, utterly.
The middle-east is fear based more than anything.
So the solution is mass murder? Grow up and stop being a child. And that's me being charitable. Do you have any morality at all? Honest question.
I say this about Eastern Europe and you scream at me.
While I won't endorse this line of strategy..Zach sort of has a point in that it took the God damn Mongol Empire to bring peace to the Middle Eas post Rome anyway.
And the US basically had to either do to Kabul what Hulagu did to Baghdad or do nothing except murk a bunch of terrorists. I'm totally fine with the second one and not fine with the first, though you could probably make an argument for it if you really wanted to larp.
But the half assed way our government did it...Did nothing.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
There's also dignity-based cultures, which the Anglosphere used to aspire to be.
Yinko
Well-known member
No, cultures are negatively driven and positively pulled. Dignity pulls, it does not drive. When you are describing the emotive forces of cultures you can either describe them as they are driven or as they are pulled, but you must never conflate the two.
ShieldWife
Marchioness
We’ve also been waging war against them off and on for decades. In fact, in the last few decades we’ve caused the deaths of millions of innocent people in the Middle East with our hawkish foreign policy and intervention in the region.
I’m not saying that Muslim nations are full of angels or anything, they do plenty of bad things. But when it comes to war, I doubt that any modern Middle Eastern nation is as aggressive as the USA is.
Even if the Middle East was exceptionally warlike, which it’s probably not, it still wouldn’t justify committing genocide against hundreds of millions of innocent people - which I really hope you’re not serious about.
The best thing that we can do with the Middle East is, coincidentally enough, the best thing that we can do with Eastern Europe - leave them the hell alone.
There was absolutely no situation where the gulf arabs were going to have a good time.
Lets get that out of the way, that wasn't in the cards.
Culturally speaking they have been a spent force since the days of the Ottoman Turks who conquered and colonized them. The foundation of their wealth as a people was the silk road and that was forever destroyed by oceanic travel. Their current foundation of their wealth is Oil a resource that wont last forever and where a whole lot of effort to replace it is going to happen.
At the moment of their independence they were weak and resource rich which is a recipe for being preyed upon by stronger neighbors. The deal they had with the united states was simple.
1. Don't ally with the soviet union.
2. Become fucking rich by selling oil to the west.
3. Don't be a twat.
By historical standards we have been fucking gentle with them. Fucking gentle, the turks wouldn't have been nearly as nice as us and I know that because the historical record is full of Turks making examples of Arabs who decided to get froggy. Every country in the middle east who followed these simple rules? They made money hand over fist.
And no I absolutely do not feel sorry for the Arab people like at all.
This is a group of people who have a quite a few genocides under their belts, this is a group of people who conquered half of christendom and came very close to finishing it off. This is a group of people who still enslaves black people to this day. The arab world has been a horrifically bad neighbor to have for litteral centuries.
What the west has done to them is fucking restrained compared to the shit the islamic world did to the west when they had the upper hand. Fucking restrained. I have zero pitty for this part of the world they litterally bring half the bad shit that happens to them on their own heads, the other half is living in the fucking desert which always sucks.
My money, as soon as it hits that we don't care any more and shit gets real there is going to be a three way fight between the saudi's the Iranians, and the turks for who gets to be king shit, and my bet is were going to see arabs licking the turkish boot again with in our lifetimes.
Yinko
Well-known member
I had a whole big thing written out, arguing this way and that, but then at the end I came to a bigger question.
I am not aware of any conquest that failed for being too cruel. Not the Germans, Japanese, Belgians, nor Spanish.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Zachowon is certainly wrong, but you don't really know anything about middle eastern culture, do you?
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
A good chunk of Islamic civilisation (not all. Jordan has no interest in Jihad for example) is a very aggressive and dogmatic force that inflicts unmitigated savagery on its enemies, be they foreign or within.
If you can make nice with them, however, they are excellent hosts. They live, they laugh, they love, they raise families, honour their ancestors, and worship their God. They do not deserve utter destruction.
If you can make nice with them, however, they are excellent hosts. They live, they laugh, they love, they raise families, honour their ancestors, and worship their God. They do not deserve utter destruction.
Only since they got their asses kicked trying to invade Israel.
gral
Well-known member
"Avenging fallen US soldiers"? No, they are killing their rivals. Any avenging done is incidental.
TheRejectionist
TheRejectionist
Jordan saw their neighbors and wanted none of that, there was speculation that the king in 1948 wanted peace with Israel on the condition of keeping today's West Bank and East Jerusalem .
Jordan also has an Anglo-Arab king Princess Muna al-Hussein - Wikipedia and studied in England back when it meant something with no SJW in sight.
We might agree on this one. It is a bit nuanced.
I do not know how you will see my statement, but have seen and heard Arabs badmouthing those who go abroad in Europe as "social rejects" or "uncivilized" or similar statements and from what I gathered they have much less tolerance for bullshit than European authorities.
Turks for example when they had their own women "bothered" by Afghans or Arabs they didn't hesitate to protest against Erdogan for allowing such bullcrap to start with.
Another example are Iranians that they pride themselves to be Persian than Muslim in many cases , both expats and others and they are the engineers and architect graduates that come from the MENA region.
King Arts
Well-known member
If that kind of racism is common in the army then I just have to say fuck your for your service and the benefits at the VA are fine as they are soldiers don’t deserve anymore and in fact might deserve a lot less.
From people I know who have served (POGs and Grunts), he's the only one who'd say this.
Blasterbot
Well-known member
I wouldn't even say it is racist. Zach is able to advocate the genocide off millions purely out of how much of a warhawk he is. He would not be swayed if they were lighter or darker skinned at all.
King Arts
Well-known member
I mean I wouldn’t say race is just blacks whites or Asians. I mean Hitler never killed blacks or Asians he tried to wipe out the Jews and enslave the Slavs. Both groups are light skinned Caucasians. Aka white people. Is Hitler not racist?
Blasterbot
Well-known member
yes hitler is racist. just saying it isn't zach's motivation.