The War in Afghanistan

[WolfBear]

Then let them fight the Taliban to do so in their country...
Oh wait, America already paid and equipped them to do that once and what did they do?
Should people unwilling and/or unable to create a free or at least decent government have an entitlement to share other's country that has one, provided by overly charitable westerners, at the cost of the latter?

The big problem is that the vast majority of people who recognize such obligation consider it more or less unconditional when it comes to cultural assimilation of the people involved.


They are not stupid enough to want them.

Why exactly should one be a martyr? Should anyone who is the victim of oppression be told to be a martyr? For instance, were Poles in the 1980s supposed to be martyrs rather than to try and emigrate? Should present-day North Koreans try to be martyrs?

And Yeah, I have a problem with people who believe in having such obligations be unconditional. No assimilation = no entry, IMHO. And if we can't only get the assimilable Afghans, then we shouldn't be getting any Afghans at all. Europe, for instance, is notorious for getting a lot of bad Afghans:

I've Worked with Refugees for Decades. Europe's Afghan Crime Wave Is Mind-Boggling.

Afghans stand out among the refugees committing crimes in Austria and elsewhere. Why?

nationalinterest.org

I only want Afghans who are going to be as good as the Persians that we previously got.

As for other Muslim countries not wanting them, well, where else are they supposed to flee to? Should the interests of would-be migrants matter absolutely nothing in regards to this?

 

[Marduk]

Why exactly should one be a martyr? Should anyone who is the victim of oppression be told to be a martyr? For instance, were Poles in the 1980s supposed to be martyrs rather than to try and emigrate? Should present-day North Koreans try to be martyrs?

Very few Poles and North Koreans are allowed to be refugees, and there is no question there was a genuine political point to considering them refugees - in both cases, commie problems.

As for Afghanistan, no one was asking them to be martyrs (though somehow there was no lack of wannabe martyrs on the other side, or when it came to being stowaways on flights to richer countries). No one was asking them to face Chinese mechanized divisions with a few rifles or something like that.
All they had to do is join ANA, serve reasonably well in it, and use the many billions of USD in equipment and training USA gave them to defeat half of their number or so in hill folk guerillas who were lucky to have pickup trucks and dirt bikes.

And Yeah, I have a problem with people who believe in having such obligations be unconditional. No assimilation = no entry, IMHO. And if we can't only get the assimilable Afghans, then we shouldn't be getting any Afghans at all. Europe, for instance, is notorious for getting a lot of bad Afghans:

I've Worked with Refugees for Decades. Europe's Afghan Crime Wave Is Mind-Boggling.

Afghans stand out among the refugees committing crimes in Austria and elsewhere. Why?

nationalinterest.org

I only want Afghans who are going to be as good as the Persians that we previously got.

The problem is that Afghans are Afghans, not Persians. Persia used to be a quite nicely developed country before the revolution, and in fact a close western ally. Its not that bad even under their local brand of theocrats.
Afghanistan was always a violent tribal backwater, and the local society has developed accordingly.

As for other Muslim countries not wanting them, well, where else are they supposed to flee to? Should the interests of would-be migrants matter absolutely nothing in regards to this?

Their interests should matter above all to themselves.
And how is that our problem? Why shouldn't we say that this is between the Muslim countries and their much talked about religious community with supposedly very charitable, compassionate principles?

 

[WolfBear]

Very few Poles and North Koreans are allowed to be refugees, and there is no question there was a genuine political point to considering them refugees - in both cases, commie problems.

As for Afghanistan, no one was asking them to be martyrs (though somehow there was no lack of wannabe martyrs on the other side, or when it came to being stowaways on flights to richer countries). No one was asking them to face Chinese mechanized divisions with a few rifles or something like that.
All they had to do is join ANA, serve reasonably well in it, and use the many billions of USD in equipment and training USA gave them to defeat half of their number or so in hill folk guerillas who were lucky to have pickup trucks and dirt bikes.


The problem is that Afghans are Afghans, not Persians. Persia used to be a quite nicely developed country before the revolution, and in fact a close western ally. Its not that bad even under their local brand of theocrats.
Afghanistan was always a violent tribal backwater, and the local society has developed accordingly.

Their interests should matter above all to themselves.
And how is that our problem? Why shouldn't we say that this is between the Muslim countries and their much talked about religious community with supposedly very charitable, compassionate principles?

Kind of hard to fight well when you're not getting paid well and also have ammo shortages, et cetera:

How Long Can the Afghan Security Forces Last on Their Own? (Published 2021)

As the United States withdraws from Afghanistan, it leaves behind broken and battered Afghan security forces to defend the country from the Taliban and other threats.

www.nytimes.com

The people in charge of distributing this stuff might simply loot this stuff and perhaps even sell this stuff to the Taliban in exchange for higher profits:

Why did the Afghan army disintegrate so quickly?

The billions spent by the US and NATO on the Afghan military could not fix major internal flaws.

www.aljazeera.com

Also, you're suggesting that Afghans are comparable to rural hicks if Persians are comparable to urban middle-class people? Not all Afghans, I mean, but on average.

True that. Where exactly is that legendary Muslim hospitality?

 

[Bassoe]

The people in charge of distributing this stuff might simply loot this stuff and perhaps even sell this stuff to the Taliban in exchange for higher profits:

And we want these people in our countries because?

 

[WolfBear]

And we want these people in our countries because?

We want the good ones; specifically the ones who are as compatible with our own culture and society as the Persians who we already have are. I'd gladly accept Ashraf Ghani back, for instance.

 

[King Arts]

We want the good ones; specifically the ones who are as compatible with our own culture and society as the Persians who we already have are. I'd gladly accept Ashraf Ghani back, for instance.

You mean a corrupt incompetent fool who abandoned his nation like a coward.

 

[Marduk]

We want the good ones; specifically the ones who are as compatible with our own culture and society as the Persians who we already have are. I'd gladly accept Ashraf Ghani back, for instance.

But he was one of the worst examples of these guys you proceed to complain about here:

Kind of hard to fight well when you're not getting paid well and also have ammo shortages, et cetera:

How Long Can the Afghan Security Forces Last on Their Own? (Published 2021)

As the United States withdraws from Afghanistan, it leaves behind broken and battered Afghan security forces to defend the country from the Taliban and other threats.

www.nytimes.com

The people in charge of distributing this stuff might simply loot this stuff and perhaps even sell this stuff to the Taliban in exchange for higher profits:

Why did the Afghan army disintegrate so quickly?

The billions spent by the US and NATO on the Afghan military could not fix major internal flaws.

www.aljazeera.com

Russia says Afghan president fled with 4 cars, chopper full of money

Afghan President Ashraf Ghani fled the country with four vehicles and a helicopter full of cash, the Russian embassy in Kabul said Monday.

nypost.com

Of all people, as a millionaire he of course had no need for western charity in asylum, he found hospitality in a place more appropriate for a corruptocrat with millions to his name.

Runaway Afghan President Ashraf Ghani is now in the United Arab Emirates

Afghan President Ashraf Ghani, who abandoned his country as the Taliban closed in, has taken refuge in the United Arab Emirates.

nypost.com

Who do you think "the people in charge of distributing the stuff" were? Reptilians? Chinese spies? Masonic conspirators?

No, they were Afghans, many of them in some way trained, vetted or verified by western governments before being entrusted with such authority.
If they couldn't spot such massive conmen, thieves and traitors among the leadership of Afghanistan, how are they going to spot them among refugees?
Do western societies need more thieves, conmen and traitors? No, i think we have plenty enough already.

Also, you're suggesting that Afghans are comparable to rural hicks if Persians are comparable to urban middle-class people? Not all Afghans, I mean, but on average.

All data implies that, except it makes what westerners call rural hicks look like bloody philosopher kings by comparison.

Interview: "Literacy rate in Afghanistan increased to 43 per cent" | UIL

The UNESCO Institute for Lifelong Learning (UIL) has provided technical support to the Government of Afghanistan since 2012 with the aim of improving the literacy skills of an estimated 1.2 million people.

uil.unesco.org

In 2020, after decades of western aid programs, UNESCO was so proud that they got *almost* half of them to be literate!

True that. Where exactly is that legendary Muslim hospitality?

That's for show, preaching, and own interests.

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

It's just too bad that her family is so close-minded that some of them have literally tried to hire a hitman to murder her for both starring in porn and leaving Islam (apostasy).

I do not condone it, but I understand why they tried to.

 

[WolfBear]

I do not condone it, but I understand why they tried to.

Well, Yeah, when you've been indoctrinated with religious fundamentalism since birth, it can be rather hard to let it go.

 

[WolfBear]

But he was one of the worst examples of these guys you proceed to complain about here:

Russia says Afghan president fled with 4 cars, chopper full of money

Afghan President Ashraf Ghani fled the country with four vehicles and a helicopter full of cash, the Russian embassy in Kabul said Monday.

nypost.com

Of all people, as a millionaire he of course had no need for western charity in asylum, he found hospitality in a place more appropriate for a corruptocrat with millions to his name.

Runaway Afghan President Ashraf Ghani is now in the United Arab Emirates

Afghan President Ashraf Ghani, who abandoned his country as the Taliban closed in, has taken refuge in the United Arab Emirates.

nypost.com

Who do you think "the people in charge of distributing the stuff" were? Reptilians? Chinese spies? Masonic conspirators?

No, they were Afghans, many of them in some way trained, vetted or verified by western governments before being entrusted with such authority.
If they couldn't spot such massive conmen, thieves and traitors among the leadership of Afghanistan, how are they going to spot them among refugees?
Do western societies need more thieves, conmen and traitors? No, i think we have plenty enough already.


All data implies that, except it makes what westerners call rural hicks look like bloody philosopher kings by comparison.

Interview: "Literacy rate in Afghanistan increased to 43 per cent" | UIL

The UNESCO Institute for Lifelong Learning (UIL) has provided technical support to the Government of Afghanistan since 2012 with the aim of improving the literacy skills of an estimated 1.2 million people.

uil.unesco.org

In 2020, after decades of western aid programs, UNESCO was so proud that they got *almost* half of them to be literate!


That's for show, preaching, and own interests.

TBH, I'm wondering just how much of Afghanistan's problems were because of Ashraf Ghani rather than in spite of Ashraf Ghani. I do think that, based on his education, his intelligence level is probably in the top 1% of all Afghans. But maybe his subordinates are the dull and incompetent ones?

And I'd still like to make sure that he indeed stole that Afghan government money before leaving and that these are not simply baseless rumors about him by his political enemies.

 

[Marduk]

TBH, I'm wondering just how much of Afghanistan's problems were because of Ashraf Ghani rather than in spite of Ashraf Ghani. I do think that, based on his education, his intelligence level is probably in the top 1% of all Afghans. But maybe his subordinates are the dull and incompetent ones?

That's a lot of education and intelligence to put into the art of making money disappear and not getting caught.

And I'd still like to make sure that he indeed stole that Afghan government money before leaving and that these are not simply baseless rumors about him by his political enemies.

Ex-Afghanistan President Ghani ranked second among 'most corrupt people' of 2021 by OCCRP- Republic World

The Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP) has ranked former Afghanistan President Ashraf Ghani as one of the 'most corrupt officials' of the year, 2021. Ghani, who fled the country after the Taliban's takeover, is only the second to Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko who...

www.republicworld.com

How Corruption Played a Role in the Demise of the Afghan Government

As Afghanistan heads toward an uncertain future, many wonder what went wrong in the two decades leading up to the present crisis.

thediplomat.com

After 7 Years of Failing to Fix Afghanistan, Ghani Makes a Hasty Escape (Published 2021)

By the time ex-president Ashraf Ghani fled the country, the hot-tempered leader was isolated and ineffective. Critics blamed him for the chaos in Kabul, saying he had betrayed his people.

www.nytimes.com

While no one doubted Mr. Ghani’s own firmly held conviction about his outsized intellect, it did little to help him manage the endless palaver of Afghan politics with its power brokers, ethnic divisions and reliance on outright bribery to get things done. His temper and tendency to lecture did not make matters any better.

He neglected his American-backed army, leaving its soldiers in the field hungry; the military turned out to be a mere facade, crumbling as soon as the Taliban exerted pressure. He treated warlords who could have fought for him with contempt and condescension; they, too, put up little resistance as the Taliban swept across Afghanistan.

He micromanaged the military and civil command structure, replacing competence with personal loyalty. Critics accused Mr. Ghani, an ethnic Pashtun, of alienating Afghanistan’s other, less numerous ethnic groups. He turned his back — at best — on reports of corruption in the upper echelons of his administration, allowing to flourish the same kind of graft that he had promised to clean up.

 

[WolfBear]

That's a lot of education and intelligence to put into the art of making money disappear and not getting caught.

Ex-Afghanistan President Ghani ranked second among 'most corrupt people' of 2021 by OCCRP- Republic World

The Organized Crime and Corruption Reporting Project (OCCRP) has ranked former Afghanistan President Ashraf Ghani as one of the 'most corrupt officials' of the year, 2021. Ghani, who fled the country after the Taliban's takeover, is only the second to Belarus President Alexander Lukashenko who...

www.republicworld.com

How Corruption Played a Role in the Demise of the Afghan Government

As Afghanistan heads toward an uncertain future, many wonder what went wrong in the two decades leading up to the present crisis.

thediplomat.com

After 7 Years of Failing to Fix Afghanistan, Ghani Makes a Hasty Escape (Published 2021)

By the time ex-president Ashraf Ghani fled the country, the hot-tempered leader was isolated and ineffective. Critics blamed him for the chaos in Kabul, saying he had betrayed his people.

www.nytimes.com

Makes sense; thank you. So, Yeah, Afghans like him better belong in the UAE or Saudi Arabia or wherever.

 

[PsihoKekec]

His predecessor was massively corrupt and established a system of unbridled corruption, USA supported Ghani's election in hopes that he will clean up the mess (it was controversial), but the token superficial measures he took were only for the show, to keep american money flowing

 

[TheRejectionist]

Refugee hotel rooms ‘not good value for money’ says Afghanistan evacuee I found this while "strolling" internet while in my pause of study. I found with the Brave browser and unmoderated Brave search engine.

It's funny when even the refugees are telling newspapers that a Western government is wasting resources.

 

[Marduk]

Refugee hotel rooms ‘not good value for money’ says Afghanistan evacuee I found this while "strolling" internet while in my pause of study. I found with the Brave browser and unmoderated Brave search engine.

It's funny when even the refugees are telling newspapers that a Western government is wasting resources.

There is a good reason for this - the government didn't want to have a bunch of migrant scandals on its face, and containing them in hotels lowered the amount of them probably...
Except naturally hotels getting too greedy and letting paying guests have the refugees as neighbors - let's say they weren't amused.

And although the couple are “grateful” to the UK Government, Abdul does not believe those living at the hotel are happy and maintains he would prefer the “freedom” of a flat.

Yeah, unleash a bunch of Afghans who have never lived in a western country onto the urban liberals of UK and unsuspecting neighbors. What could go wrong?

There were some articles around about their behavior, like this.

Guests 'branded racist' after complaining about refugees at hotel

Guests who stayed at the Grand Hotel in Scarborough say they were branded racist after complaining about Afghan refugee children 'running riot' around the hotel during their stay.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Overall, i think western governments should have thought of the issue sooner and made more reasonable arrangements than resettling Afghans (especially when doing so is the most politically correct option, so it has to be a questionable idea) in the west overall - like making some deal with few safer, friendly-ish countries in the region that are more similar to Afghanistan both in culture and economy. Its the same issue as with other refugees, with perverse incentives of lavish welfare, rich but demanding economies, and political correctness allowing to get them favors by accusing everyone of isms and phobias, resettling them in western countries does absolutely no favors to anyone except the bad actors involved.

 

[WolfBear]

Overall, i think western governments should have thought of the issue sooner and made more reasonable arrangements than resettling Afghans (especially when doing so is the most politically correct option, so it has to be a questionable idea) in the west overall - like making some deal with few safer, friendly-ish countries in the region that are more similar to Afghanistan both in culture and economy. Its the same issue as with other refugees, with perverse incentives of lavish welfare, rich but demanding economies, and political correctness allowing to get them favors by accusing everyone of isms and phobias, resettling them in western countries does absolutely no favors to anyone except the bad actors involved.

Yeah, I do agree that a huge number of Afghan refugees would no doubt fit better in the Muslim world. Cultural compatibility is key here, of course. Afghan feminists and LGBTQ+ people should be welcome in the West but not corrupt Afghans or bigoted Afghans or lazy Afghans.

 

[Marduk]

Yeah, I do agree that a huge number of Afghan refugees would no doubt fit better in the Muslim world. Cultural compatibility is key here, of course. Afghan feminists and LGBTQ+ people should be welcome in the West but not corrupt Afghans or bigoted Afghans or lazy Afghans.

Don't we have more than enough progressive activists already? Turkey could use some to balance out the Muslim Brotherhood...

 

[WolfBear]

Don't we have more than enough progressive activists already? Turkey could use some to balance out the Muslim Brotherhood...

By "we" you mean "Poland" or "the US"?

Anyway, Yeah, I suppose that they could fit rather well in Turkey. Well, other than the gay ones since Turkey doesn't actually have same-sex marriage. Not yet, at least. And probably not anytime soon either.

 

[Marduk]

By "we" you mean "Poland" or "the US"?

Why not both?

 

[WolfBear]

Why not both?

Fair enough. That said, though, this is what can happen to naive left-wing Polish activists: