The Americas The Tyranny within Canada: Trade War and Collapse

[King Arts]

America, if we could get over a few internal issues, could become the nicest, friendliest empire in the history of the planet.

We can even let out new territories/allies keep their old royal families and most of their old laws/cultures, so long as they don't conflict with the US Constitution.

SPQA is a dream that the US can achieve, if we truly want it; a Constitutional Empire is something America is uniquely placed to attempt.

Ok you obviously don’t know how to read the constitution. It expressly forbids nobility or royal family.

 

[Blasterbot]

Ok you obviously don’t know how to read the constitution. It expressly forbids nobility or royal family.

yes. but we don't have to care about if our allies are. so long as they don't try and force American companies to censor Americans and other anti-constitutional things.

 

[mrttao]

yes. but we don't have to care about if our allies are. so long as they don't try and force American companies to censor Americans and other anti-constitutional things.

I believe he was arguing about the "territories" part of that post. Not the allies part.

 

[King Arts]

I believe he was arguing about the "territories" part of that post. Not the allies part.

Yup

 

[DarthOne]

Screw the Empire nonsense. The post-WW2 American Empire nonsense is how we got here. Never mind that we have enough problems at home to waste lives, blood and money on more foreign adventures. We have Most of a contient's worth of resources- what have we to gain by an overseas Empire?

(no Hawaii does not count, and giving it up would mean giving the remains of the people who died during Pearl harbor into the hands of a foreign nation)

 

[Morphic Tide]

Ok you obviously don’t know how to read the constitution. It expressly forbids nobility or royal family.

Empires are defined by scale and multinationality, not a hereditary upper class, as the famously civil war prone and adoption reliant for heirs Roman namesake well demonstrates. In several respects the US qualified as one by 1865 at the latest.

 

[King Arts]

Empires are defined by scale and multinationality, not a hereditary upper class, as the famously civil war prone and adoption reliant for heirs Roman namesake well demonstrates. In several respects the US qualified as one by 1865 at the latest.

Yes? What is your point I know democracies can be empires Athens and the Delian league as an example.

I don’t think you understand what I said.

 

[Morphic Tide]

Yes? What is your point I know democracies can be empires Athens and the Delian league as an example.

I don’t think you understand what I said.

Is your point that remnant royal families would be Constitutionally obligated to step down? Because the only relevant clauses I'm aware of is that Congress may not grant such and members of the government cannot receive them from foreign powers without Congress's approval.

Under these terms, it appears entirely sound for annexed territories to retain pre-existing nobility and royalty, and the text is specific enough that it wouldn't be difficult to rule that States are allowed to have such features in their government.

 

[King Arts]

Is your point that remnant royal families would be Constitutionally obligated to step down? Because the only relevant clauses I'm aware of is that Congress may not grant such and members of the government cannot receive them from foreign powers without Congress's approval.

Under these terms, it appears entirely sound for annexed territories to retain pre-existing nobility and royalty, and the text is specific enough that it wouldn't be difficult to rule that States are allowed to have such features in their government.

Yes the government of the US is required to be a republic. Also there is no grandfather clause. Titles can't be granted, even if someone decided to interpret it in a new way where previous nobles were allowed. Their monarchies would still die. As new members of the royal family can't be princes, and once the king dies a new king can't be appointed. That means their legal powers and privileges would have to be abolished.

 

[Morphic Tide]

Yes the government of the US is required to be a republic.

The usual definition in political theory is merely the head of state being elected, which is the case for many of the remaining monarchies such as the United Kingdom itself yet weirdly not most of the rest of the Commonwealth. Because to be a head of state, you have to have the highest executive power.

even if someone decided to interpret it in a new way where previous nobles were allowed

What's "new" about clauses saying "can't grant" not meaning "must remove"?

As new members of the royal family can't be princes

Given that the basic premise of these titles is that they're hereditary to the line rather than granted anew to each individual, I still fail to see how it's ironclad. The US has a tradition of solely representative government, but it is not exhaustively guaranteed, otherwise there's a very high likelyhood the ever-expanding bureaucracy would never have gotten off the ground.

There's a reason why the proposed Titles of Nobility Amendment was proposed and nearly passed. As it did not, it remains the case that there are conditions in which citizens of the United States can have titles of nobility.

 

[King Arts]

The usual definition in political theory is merely the head of state being elected, which is the case for many of the remaining monarchies such as the United Kingdom itself yet weirdly not most of the rest of the Commonwealth. Because to be a head of state, you have to have the highest executive power.

A Republic is defined as not a monarchy. The United Kingdom is not a Republic, like literally the Soviet Union was more of a Republic than the British are.

What's "new" about clauses saying "can't grant" not meaning "must remove"?

No each new person gets the title. That's why when the King dies there is a coronation for the new King.

Given that the basic premise of these titles is that they're hereditary to the line rather than granted anew to each individual, I still fail to see how it's ironclad. The US has a tradition of solely representative government, but it is not exhaustively guaranteed, otherwise there's a very high likelyhood the ever-expanding bureaucracy would never have gotten off the ground.

There's a reason why the proposed Titles of Nobility Amendment was proposed and nearly passed. As it did not, it remains the case that there are conditions in which citizens of the United States can have titles of nobility.

Americans can have titles of nobility given to them by other nations. But the US will not recognize them

 

[Bacle]

Screw the Empire nonsense. The post-WW2 American Empire nonsense is how we got here. Never mind that we have enough problems at home to waste lives, blood and money on more foreign adventures. We have Most of a contient's worth of resources- what have we to gain by an overseas Empire?

(no Hawaii does not count, and giving it up would mean giving the remains of the people who died during Pearl harbor into the hands of a foreign nation)

We half-assed being an empire before, with a half-hearted effort in most regards.

What I mean is a true, fully invested American Constitutional Empire, that won't need to conquer with bullets and blood (much), instead we can simply offer nations an alternative to ending up a CCP or Russian vassal or proxy.

An alternative that comes with US Constitutional protections and Rights, along with, along with becoming part of the US domestic economy, and allowing passport/visa free travel, like we have with Puerto Rico and Guam, for places that chose to join the US Empire.

Isolationism won't work long term, but the rest of the west and our allies have effectively asked the US to be an empire for decades, without the benefits to the imperial center (the US populace) that an empire usually entails, so let's be the empire the rest of the west has long treated us as.

 

[DarthOne]

We half-assed being an empire before, with a half-hearted effort in most regards.

What I mean is a true, fully invested American Constitutional Empire, that won't need to conquer with bullets and blood (much), instead we can simply offer nations an alternative to ending up a CCP or Russian vassal or proxy.

An alternative that comes with US Constitutional protections and Rights, along with, along with becoming part of the US domestic economy, and allowing passport/visa free travel, like we have with Puerto Rico and Guam, for places that chose to join the US Empire.

Isolationism won't work long term, but the rest of the west and our allies have effectively asked the US to be an empire for decades, without the benefits to the imperial center (the US populace) that an empire usually entails, so let's be the empire the rest of the west has long treated us as.

Empires are historically a terrible idea that ends with the founding nation becoming a shadow of its former self. Assuming it survives at all.

 

[Bacle]

Empires are historically a terrible idea that ends with the founding nation becoming a shadow of its former self. Assuming it survives at all.

...And most previous empires were in Eurasia, where a ground invasion of the imperial center was possible, or in Central/South America, where they tended to get ended by volcanic eruptions that would wipe out the imperial center, or cause volcanic winters leading to starvation, or get ended by Spanish who were several tech levels above the locals and had immunity to diseases the locals didn't.

Also, well, Mongols brought down a lot of empires in their time, and we don't have the same issue with being open to the Eurasian Steppe lands.

The US is vulnerable to none of that, unless you count Yellowstone.

The US is uniquely positioned, geographically, technologically, and socially, to have nearly none of the vulnerabilities that have brought down previous empires in the Old World, or the vulnerabilities that brought down the Meso-American empires.

America is exceptional in so many ways, and is an exception to historical trends that only the Mongols were before now.

We do not have to be constrained by the fates of other empires, because we do not have the same geographic or environmental factors that led to the downfall of most historical empires.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

...And most previous empires were in Eurasia, where a ground invasion of the imperial center was possible, or in Central/South America, where they tended to get ended by volcanic eruptions that would wipe out the imperial center, or cause volcanic winters leading to starvation, or get ended by Spanish who were several tech levels above the locals and had immunity to diseases the locals didn't.

Also, well, Mongols brought down a lot of empires in their time, and we don't have the same issue with being open to the Eurasian Steppe lands.

The US is vulnerable to none of that, unless you count Yellowstone.

The US is uniquely positioned, geographically, technologically, and socially, to have nearly none of the vulnerabilities that have brought down previous empires in the Old World, or the vulnerabilities that brought down the Meso-American empires.

America is exceptional in so many ways, and is an exception to historical trends that only the Mongols were before now.

We do not have to be constrained by the fates of other empires, because we do not have the same geographic or environmental factors that led to the downfall of most historical empires.

You are already a husk of your former self.

You wont fall to external invasion.

You will fall to internal strife.

I have always maintained that the USA is most similar to China in many respects. Right now you can paper over your growing divisions and internal contradictions with your ability to print money, ensuring the capital needed to maintain a level of prosperity beyond your actual ability to generate wealth. But once that ends...well as the old saying goes...the Empire, long united, must divide. And once divided, it will never reconstitute itself in its old form.

 

[Bacle]

You are already a husk of your former self.

You wont fall to external invasion.

You will fall to internal strife.

I have always maintained that the USA is most similar to China in many respects. Right now you can paper over your growing divisions and internal contradictions with your ability to print money, ensuring the capital needed to maintain a level of prosperity beyond your actual ability to generate wealth. But once that ends...well as the old saying goes...the Empire, long united, must divide. And once divided, it will never reconstitute itself in its old form.

Fucking lol, this coming from the fucking arach-kiddy Leaf.

You got no room to talk, and the US is not a 'husk', but Canada is.

Cope and Seethe.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Fucking lol, this coming from the fucking arach-kiddy Leaf.

You got no room to talk, and the US is not a 'husk', but Canada is.

Cope and Seethe.

I never claimed Canada wasnt a husk. Thats why I would like to see it levelled to the ground and rebuilt into something new. Unlike you I am not living in denial. You are a decadent, corrupt plutocracy ruled by pedophiles and kept going through infinite debt. No one should seek to spread that around the world..they should seek to destroy it and rebuild.

 

[Morphic Tide]

You are a decadent, corrupt plutocracy ruled by pedophiles

But unlike Canada and China we have more than one elite class with institutional power. We are in fact in the middle of shredding the peerage networks and sinecures of the elites you mention as part of shifting to a new collection of them.

and kept going through infinite debt.

No, the infinite debt is keeping our foreign entanglements and welfare going, as opposed to baseline economic functionality like Canada and China.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

But unlike Canada and China we have more than one elite class with institutional power. We are in fact in the middle of shredding the peerage networks and sinecures of the elites you mention as part of shifting to a new collection of them.

1) Canada has three competing elite classes with a level of institutional power, not one.
2) You are not shredding anything. You will barely make a dent. It will take a literal revolution to actually effect change.

 

[Cherico]

1) Canada has three competing elite classes with a level of institutional power, not one.
2) You are not shredding anything. You will barely make a dent. It will take a literal revolution to actually effect change.

Canada and America are both now suffering from the long term conquences of foundational past mistakes.

For America our foundational mistake was slavery and were still grappling with it, its painful but america has to learn to aknowlege the error but not be ruled by self destructive guilt.

For Canada the big mistake was keeping Quebec a lot of canada's issues feel like their caused by trying to keep Quebec in the fold. I do not think Canada's foundational sin was its treatment of the native population because in all honesty they were a hell of a lot nicer to the natives then we were.