The (self inflicted) Death of Europe

[Edgeplay_cgo]

Which is an easy assumption to make, for anyone who isn't burdened by the prejudices inherent in being a Jew or a Christian. I mean look at the Golden Rule for example; the Jewish “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor: that is the whole of the Torah, while the rest is commentary thereon; go and learn it.” and the Christian "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.", are both basically plagiarisms of the ancient Mesopotamian "Son, that which seems evil to thee, do not to thy companion."

There's a passage or three in the OT, "I have written The Law on your hearts." I suspect that "your" is a pretty wide ranging set. Nothing says that He did not reveal His Truth to peoples other than Jews and Christians.

 

[Terthna]

There's a passage or three in the OT, "I have written The Law on your hearts." I suspect that "your" is a pretty wide ranging set. Nothing says that He did not reveal His Truth to peoples other than Jews and Christians.

That sounds like a pretty transparent attempt at delegitimizing those who came before, by claiming ownership of their ideas after the fact.

 

[LordsFire]

That sounds like a pretty transparent attempt at delegitimizing those who came before, by claiming ownership of their ideas after the fact.

It'd be very easy to counter-argue this with the following:

"This sounds like an attempt by mere human beings to delegitimize the Great I Am, who is the Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End, by claiming that the precepts he built into the conscience of all human beings are, in fact, human creations."

The validity of the argument you're trying to make there, depends on people already agreeing with a non-Judeo-Christian worldview.

That's a very common thing in current-day post-christian western culture.

 

[FriedCFour]

The obvious that atheists are a minority, therefore it's okay to make their lives hell?

The victim mentality there is astonishing. How in any way shape or form is your or any western atheists life being made a living hell?

Meanwhile, plenty of atrocities have been committed by people belonging to your "moral" religion. For example, the institution of slavery in the American south, which was justified by its proponents by passages in the Bible which pertain to slavery. And again, I'd invite everyone to look up the Sand Creek massacre and the atrocities committed there, and keep in mind that it was led by a preacher.

And most communist regimes have atheism as a central goal and aspiration and the end of religion. The bible and biblical justification was also heavily used by abolitionists and those who passed the 14th amendment as well. Keep in mind, Atheist regimes killed 100 million people in the 20th century.

 

[Cherico]

The victim mentality there is astonishing. How in any way shape or form is your or any western atheists life being made a living hell?


And most communist regimes have atheism as a central goal and aspiration and the end of religion. The bible and biblical justification was also heavily used by abolitionists and those who passed the 14th amendment as well. Keep in mind, Atheist regimes killed 100 million people in the 20th century.

I dont think atheism was the thing that made communist regiems so murderous, I'm pretty sure it was the communism that made them so psychotic and that even if they were religious they would still murder a whole lot of people.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I dont think atheism was the thing that made communist regiems so murderous, I'm pretty sure it was the communism that made them so psychotic and that even if they were religious they would still murder a whole lot of people.

A Socialist-Caliphate.....I am expecting that to arise from Europe in the future to terrorize or at least annoy the rest of the world

Probably may turn non-Muslims into third or fourth class citizens

 

[Liberterrarium]

I dont think atheism was the thing that made communist regiems so murderous, I'm pretty sure it was the communism that made them so psychotic and that even if they were religious they would still murder a whole lot of people.

I agree. Communism promoted paranoia and fear. Everyone was scared of everyone else, and the USSR was scared of the world.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I agree. Communism promoted paranoia and fear. Everyone was scared of everyone else, and the USSR was scared of the world.

Someone from our Sister Sites will go on about how the USA and Britan under Margaret Thatcher and other nations aligned with them were paranoid about Communists and were responsible for dictatorships arising in poor countries(like my own, the Philippines, we got Ferdinand Marcos)

Though, I think their paranoia actually was right, I mean wasn’t Hollywood really proven to have funding or influence by the USSR? And now that influence overflowed even till today?

That said, I think other than paranoia, Communism got people killed out of sheer stupidity and incompetence

Believing that centralising everything and having a government who will act as your nanny and mentor, has bad side-effects when they decide that stuff like having every village and household be a steel foundry would somehow fix the economy amongst other things

The only way Socialism/Communism would work is with a Super-Bureacracy-AI and Clarketech

Or whatever these guys did to manage everything

Qunari

The Qunari (literally, "People of the Qun") is the umbrella term most commonly used to describe the white-haired metallic-skinned race of large humanoids and their society that governs the islands of Par Vollen and Seheron, as well as the settlement of Kont-aar in northern Rivain, and Qundalon...

dragonage.fandom.com

Maybe it’s to do with brainwashing everybody to the point that hypocrisy or incompetence and “More Equal Than Others” syndrome was physically removed even from the leadership

 

[Sailor.X]

I dont think atheism was the thing that made communist regiems so murderous, I'm pretty sure it was the communism that made them so psychotic and that even if they were religious they would still murder a whole lot of people.

Here is a video dealing with what they did to China.




Basically Hell one Earth and everything stated is back up by accounts of people who escaped that hell hole.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Here is a video dealing with what they did to China.




Basically Hell one Earth and everything stated is back up by accounts of people who escaped that hell hole.

Honestly, you can have a billion guys fleeing and decrying Communism, you will still have loads of guys romanticising it and saying that the Communist governments they fled from actually helped out

 

[Sailor.X]

Honestly, you can have a billion guys fleeing and decrying Communism, you will still have loads of guys romanticising it and saying that the Communist governments they fled from actually helped out

That is why you also watch.......

ADVChina

Support the show here - https://www.patreon.com/advpodcasts https://www.subscribestar.com/advpodcasts For a no-nonsense on the street look at Chinese culture...

www.youtube.com

They give you the straight skinny on what is really going on in China.

 

[LordsFire]

I dont think atheism was the thing that made communist regiems so murderous, I'm pretty sure it was the communism that made them so psychotic and that even if they were religious they would still murder a whole lot of people.

The thing is, part of what enables communism/socialism, is the cultural and moral vacuum left by atheism.

There have been Christian groups that tried socialism, and some still try, socialism. It tends to result in economic failure, but not genocide and other forms of mass-murder. In these contexts, human institutions are still subordinate to God's Law.

In an atheistic communist social set up, the state is god in the abstract, and the head of state is god in practicality. You did what Stalin said, or you died. You did what Mao said, or you died. Their word was law, their proclamations carried the weight of moral law.

Yes, there have been 'christian' dictators. So-called 'christian' kings who did horrible things to their people and other peoples. There's a long history of corruption within the clergy of any long-existing church, particularly the catholic church because of how long it's been, and how much secular authority has at times rested in its hands.

This still ran into cultural conflict with the fact that these horrible leaders and rulers were directly violating the moral law that was nominally dominant within their culture, and they still were not a patch on what happened under atheistic&communist regimes in the 20th century.

It is no mistake that atheist communists make religious orders one of their prime targets, because as long as the culture is to any meaningful degree defined by a religion, the communist religion of 'state-worship' cannot reign supreme.

Nietzsche himself predicted that the 20th century would become the bloodiest century in human history. He did it after communism had started to arise, and after atheism had started to arise. He did not predict it would be because of communism, he predicted it would because of 'the death of god,' and he was exactly right.

Communism/socialism when subordinate to Christianity, is a recipe for economic failure and suffering such things generally don't last long, because they aren't really compatible as culture/government combo, one of the two will be forced out by the other. When combined with atheism, it is a recipe for... I'm not sure if there's a single 20th century tyrannical regime that butchered a million or more people that wasn't born from the combination of communism and atheism.

 

[Big Steve]

Communism/socialism when subordinate to Christianity, is a recipe for economic failure and suffering such things generally don't last long, because they aren't really compatible as culture/government combo, one of the two will be forced out by the other. When combined with atheism, it is a recipe for... I'm not sure if there's a single 20th century tyrannical regime that butchered a million or more people that wasn't born from the combination of communism and atheism.

Uh....

*Cough*

You're forgetting one really, really big exception, arguably the most malicious and vicious of the 20th Century's mass-murder regimes. Y'know, the one that invented industrialized mass murder? Actual assembly lines from the trains to the gas chambers to the ovens? They marched around with a Hakenkreuz, a holy symbol in some cultures they've irrevocably tainted, and liked to raise their arms in a facsimile of the Roman salute a lot?

 

[LordsFire]

Uh....

*Cough*

You're forgetting one really, really big exception, arguably the most malicious and vicious of the 20th Century's mass-murder regimes. Y'know, the one that invented industrialized mass murder? Actual assembly lines from the trains to the gas chambers to the ovens? They marched around with a Hakenkreuz, a holy symbol in some cultures they've irrevocably tainted, and liked to raise their arms in a facsimile of the Roman salute a lot?

If you're referring to the bloody nazis, they were absolutely atheists. Hitler notably lamented how the 'weak' nature of Christian cultural heritage in Germany made it harder to do what he wanted to in the nation.

You also had some of the Christian holdouts, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, being part of the conspiracies trying to kill Hitler.

 

[Deleted member]

That's an interesting claim. It seems to be operating on the assumption that Judaism and Christianity are not actually the result of direct divine revelation.

It's possible to reconcile the two with the assumption that they are restatements of the core eternal truth of God, and of course that they are not all literally true, but aesthetically true. But to me all divine revelations are simply saying the same thing. We simply cannot know exactly what that is, because it is beyond the mortal mind.

 

[Big Steve]

If you're referring to the bloody nazis, they were absolutely atheists. Hitler notably lamented how the 'weak' nature of Christian cultural heritage in Germany made it harder to do what he wanted to in the nation.

You also had some of the Christian holdouts, like Dietrich Bonhoeffer, being part of the conspiracies trying to kill Hitler.

So that explains the Gott Mit Uns belt buckles.

I mean, Hitler's ideological consistency was kinda all over the map depending on who'd pissed him off lately or whatever new warped idea was shooting like Dark Side lightning through his brain, and certainly there was a resistance by Christians to Nazi ideals, but aside from Martin Bormann the Nazi regime tended to have weird religious ideas, not outright atheism.

 

[Terthna]

It'd be very easy to counter-argue this with the following:

"This sounds like an attempt by mere human beings to delegitimize the Great I Am, who is the Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End, by claiming that the precepts he built into the conscience of all human beings are, in fact, human creations."

The validity of the argument you're trying to make there, depends on people already agreeing with a non-Judeo-Christian worldview.

That's a very common thing in current-day post-christian western culture.

Arguing about religion has always been a pointless endeavor, because you cannot reason with faith. Then again, considering the backfire effect is a thing, there's probably nothing special about that fact in regards to religion; people are already inclined not to believe information that contradicts strongly held beliefs, whether they be religious in origin or otherwise, and actually tend to hold to them even more strongly after any sort of confrontation. Facts are irrelevant, as we are creature of emotion, not logic; and once you realize that, reason itself starts to seem like some sick joke.

 

[GoldRanger]

We, as in the entire world, will definitely be better off without state involvement in religion of ANY kind. And forcing individuals to adhere to religious principles that they don't believe in is the absolute worst. Yes, atheism was a common feature of communism, but I have yet to see a shred of evidence that it was related in any way to the atrocities those regimes perpetrated. It's like blaming homosexuality for anti-Zionism - yes, support for the former often correlates to the latter because of the moronic "intersectionality" principle the left adopted, that doesn't mean that supporting LGBTQ is inherently bad because anti-Zionism/Semitism is bad.

 

[LordsFire]

Arguing about religion has always been a pointless endeavor, because you cannot reason with faith. Then again, considering the backfire effect is a thing, there's probably nothing special about that fact in regards to religion; people are already inclined not to believe information that contradicts strongly held beliefs, whether they be religious in origin or otherwise, and actually tend to hold to them even more strongly after any sort of confrontation. Facts are irrelevant, as we are creature of emotion, not logic; and once you realize that, reason itself starts to seem like some sick joke.

This is both wrong and insulting. I do not believe what I believe because one day I just decided I wanted to. I don't believe it because some older generation passed it down to me. I very carefully analyzed and considered the world around me and what ideology it seemed to correspond to, and I've done bottom-up reviews of that analysis multiple times.

Sure, there are people out there who just believe whatever they like the sound of. Even more who just believe whatever was passed down to them. And most people are very captive to motivated reasoning, and unwilling to change the ideology they've arrived at, regardless of facts.

That doesn't mean that it has to be this way.

We, as in the entire world, will definitely be better off without state involvement in religion of ANY kind. And forcing individuals to adhere to religious principles that they don't believe in is the absolute worst. Yes, atheism was a common feature of communism, but I have yet to see a shred of evidence that it was related in any way to the atrocities those regimes perpetrated. It's like blaming homosexuality for anti-Zionism - yes, support for the former often correlates to the latter because of the moronic "intersectionality" principle the left adopted, that doesn't mean that supporting LGBTQ is inherently bad because anti-Zionism/Semitism is bad.

Atheism absolutely has things to do with the atrocities perpetrated. As I've said before, atheism creates a moral vacuum, as well as a cultural and power vacuum. Mao, Stalin, and Hitler, created cults of personality, and stepped into the role of 'god' within their culture, doing as they pleased, and acting out the worst impulses of human nature.

We are seeing in Europe today the inward-focused result of the nihilism that atheism inevitably brings, when no ultimately satisfying purpose or meaning can be found within that framework. People try to find what pleasure they can, and wither away.

If you think I'm wrong?

Show me the rational framework for morality within atheism. Show me the rational framework for purpose or meaning within atheism. Nietsche couldn't, Kant couldn't, I really doubt you can, but I'm willing to listen if you want to try.

 

[Deleted member]

@LordsFire in fact, Nietzsche deconstructed the concept thoroughly. The closest thing to a rational morality in atheism comes from nontheistic religion—Buddhism and Confucianism in short—where the “nontheism” still relies on an orderly and purposeful creation and merely refuses to anthropomorphise its creator. And even that is just one interpretation of those beliefs which is not necessarily true.