The (self inflicted) Death of Europe

[Terthna]

You can have a moral framework, but it's not one that's logically consistent with a naturalistic view of the universe. Plenty of atheists are moral people, but that is no more or less rationally consistent with atheism, than being utterly amoral, or completely immoral.

I really don't want to get into yet another religious argument on this forum; but suffice to say, things are a lot more complicated than you're portraying them.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

I really don't want to get into yet another religious argument on this forum; but suffice to say, things are a lot more complicated than you're portraying them.

We can at least agree that the Western Left’s Atheist-Communist types are making their Far-Left Centralization Political Ideaology into their Gods

And their politicians and celebrities into high priests and prophets

The only way to get rid of this “religion” is with another religion or “religion”

Though man, if people choose the latter, it’d probably be Libertarianism which they will proceed to call Nazism or Fascism or Corporatism and launch an invasion, I meant liberation, of whatever nation or city or town or place where it prospers

 

[Captain X]

From an atheistic framework, morality is nothing more than a matter of personal preference, and there's no ethical difference between deploying chemical weapons against your own citizens, and pouring gasoline down an ant-hole in your back yard.

If you're a psychopath maybe. I hate to break it to you, but you're talking to an atheist who has a pretty solid moral framework. It's been built up over my life from my parents and other role models I had. A large number of my friends are the same, and it'd apparently surprise you, but most of them are conservative libertarians to varying degrees, yet are agnostic or atheist. Also, I'd point out that ethics are based on logic, and outside of crazies like PETA members, most people are going to conclude that there is an ethical difference between sentient life, as in humans, and non-sentient life like ants. So this statement is pure grade-A bullshit.

I'm curious, where does this need to paint people as amoral come from? You realize this is the kind of shit the SJWs do, right? Where they paint everyone who doesn't agree with them as evil. Maybe you want to reexamine how you look at things, lest you take on the same mentality as the NPCs.

 

[Captain X]

We can at least agree that the Western Left’s Atheist-Communist types are making their Far-Left Centralization Political Ideaology into their Gods

Yeah, just keep in mind that a fair number of atheists are not commies. But, yeah, the modern social justice commies are pretty damn dogmatic - that's one of the things I like to bash them about.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Yeah, just keep in mind that a fair number of atheists are not commies. But, yeah, the modern social justice commies are pretty damn dogmatic - that's one of the things I like to bash them about.

I think something called ElevatorGate which occurred to REALLY divide the Atheist community

Think of it as how even though SJWs make up a small portion of a fandom, they actually control or are most of the MODs and are even in the industry itself. They also control how atheists are viewed in public kr the media, so as far most people would know, atheism would be mainly Left Wing even if there are atheists of a very strange Ayn Rand-ish economic view of things

So they can label those Libertarians or Objectivists atheists as being a bunch of Nazi’s and lump then with the Religious Right somehow

 

[PsihoKekec]

WWI was not started, fought in the manner of, or concluded in a manner befitting the teachings of Christ.

And all the wars before were? Christian leaders of the past centuries had no problem with their armies ravaging the christian lands of their christian opponents, engaging in mass murder, rape and pillage as normal part of campaigns.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

And all the wars before were? Christian leaders of the past centuries had no problem with their armies ravaging the christian lands of their christian opponents, engaging in mass murder, rape and pillage as normal part of campaigns.

Yeah, best not to romanticize Christianity and the Roman Catholic church and its offshoots so much

We all had prostitution, drugs, alcohol, human trafficking, extreme violence based entertainment BEFORE the 1900s

 

[LordsFire]

If you're a psychopath maybe. I hate to break it to you, but you're talking to an atheist who has a pretty solid moral framework. It's been built up over my life from my parents and other role models I had. A large number of my friends are the same, and it'd apparently surprise you, but most of them are conservative libertarians to varying degrees, yet are agnostic or atheist. Also, I'd point out that ethics are based on logic, and outside of crazies like PETA members, most people are going to conclude that there is an ethical difference between sentient life, as in humans, and non-sentient life like ants. So this statement is pure grade-A bullshit.

I'm curious, where does this need to paint people as amoral come from? You realize this is the kind of shit the SJWs do, right? Where they paint everyone who doesn't agree with them as evil. Maybe you want to reexamine how you look at things, lest you take on the same mentality as the NPCs.

I don't have a 'need to,' I'm simply pointing out the truth.

An atheist can be a plentifully moral person. That's not something that stems from their atheism though, in fact, it's something that runs against their atheism.

To be clear, I'm more specifically referring to western 'there is no supernatural' strains of atheism. There are some who'd argue that certain forms of Buddhism and other religions are a form of atheistic, but a very different thing than the materialistic atheism of the west.

If you think I'm wrong, please, feel free to explain the logical philosophical foundation for morality within materialistic atheism. I've yet to see someone manage to pull this off, so it'd certainly be a new experience for me.

And all the wars before were? Christian leaders of the past centuries had no problem with their armies ravaging the christian lands of their christian opponents, engaging in mass murder, rape and pillage as normal part of campaigns.

There's a reason I called it 'christendom.' So very much was done, and is still done, by people who claim not just to be Christians, but to hold some degree of religious authority, that runs directly contrary to the teachings of Christ, and the apostles too while we're at it.

But that's the thing. As a Christian, I can say 'This is the standard they failed, what they did was wrong. Here is God's Law, they have violated it.'

That's not something a materialist can claim, because any morality they proclaim is simply their personal take on the matter, not a logical outflowing of their worldview. And frankly, most western atheists who do have a decent moral structure, just inherited it from Christian cultural inertia, the parts they didn't want to reject.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Say, since this thread’s about Europe and it’s eventual rule by a theocracy of overreacting violent megaprudes who disapprove of women showing hair or much skin and would like them covered in large baggy veils whilst having horrific punishments for those women and people they accuse of “sodomy”

How long till the European Comicbook Industries which are way more relaxed with sex and violence than their European counterparts and look to have artists with much more love for women’s bodies in-comparison to the West, start self-censoring extremely or get banned or decide to move out to Japan or the USA?

Because plenty of their stuff will be declared illegal

 

[Sailor.X]

Yeah, best not to romanticize Christianity and the Roman Catholic church and its offshoots so much

We all had prostitution, drugs, alcohol, human trafficking, extreme violence based entertainment BEFORE the 1900s

Even all the stuff that happened in the time after the fall of the Roman Empire and between the Protestant reformation pales in comparison to what the Greeks, Roman Empire, Nazi Germany the USSR and Fascist Italy got up too. The latter have higher death counts.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Even all the stuff that happened in the time after the fall of the Roman Empire and between the Protestant reformation pales in comparison to what the Greeks, Roman Empire, Nazi Germany the USSR and Fascist Italy got up too. The latter have higher death counts.

They had larger populations and higher levels of technology and soldiers to manage it

That said, whether it’s Communism, Fascism or even Nationalism, I have to say, I don’t think soldiers in armies have been as ideaologically united in a cause ever before till any of those three stuff popped up

Loyalties were just to specific Lordships, I think, or not

 

[Sailor.X]

They had larger populations and higher levels of technology and soldiers to manage it

That said, whether it’s Communism, Fascism or even Nationalism, I have to say, I don’t think soldiers in armies have been as ideaologically united in a cause ever before till any of those three stuff popped up

Loyalties were just to specific Lordships, I think, or not

There are some books out there that go deep into the ideology of the Soviets, Nazis and Fascists Italians. It is a very disturbing read indeed.

 

[CarlManvers2019]

There are some books out there that go deep into the ideology of the Soviets, Nazis and Fascists Italians. It is a very disturbing read indeed.

You know, while in theory Communists replace loyalty to one's nation to instead to their class, I think it's safe to say that many Communist nations all have Nationalism

It's ironically the countries who merely "border"on Communism that don't have it

 

[CarlManvers2019]

Anyway. going back to European comic books, anybody know if there's any beginnings of them being censored?

 

[Captain X]

I don't have a 'need to,' I'm simply pointing out the truth.

Your "truth" is nothing more than slanderous propaganda. If all you can do is repeat it mindlessly, then I hate to break it to you, but you're just the right wing version of an NPC.

An atheist can be a plentifully moral person. That's not something that stems from their atheism though, in fact, it's something that runs against their atheism.

If you think I'm wrong, please, feel free to explain the logical philosophical foundation for morality within materialistic atheism. I've yet to see someone manage to pull this off, so it'd certainly be a new experience for me.

It's pretty simple actually - it's based mainly in the golden rule. This is also why libertarianism has such a draw to atheists, too, because it's essentially based on the same principles. Meanwhile, plenty of atrocities have been committed by people belonging to your "moral" religion. For example, the institution of slavery in the American south, which was justified by its proponents by passages in the Bible which pertain to slavery. And again, I'd invite everyone to look up the Sand Creek massacre and the atrocities committed there, and keep in mind that it was led by a preacher.

That's not something a materialist can claim, because any morality they proclaim is simply their personal take on the matter, not a logical outflowing of their worldview.

No, we have man's law that we can show people have violated, it's not just our personal take on the matter,

And frankly, most western atheists who do have a decent moral structure, just inherited it from Christian cultural inertia, the parts they didn't want to reject.

And you see that as a bad thing? Personally I should think you'd be glad that we clearly aren't the amoral monsters you claimed us to be.

 

[7 Gold Eye Heals the Wise]

It's pretty simple actually - it's based mainly in the golden rule.

Then explain it. Since "based on the golden rule" is basically a circular answer for "internally consistent moral framework".

"Treat others like you would like to be treated." is another way of saying "have internally consistent criteria for your actions." pretty much.

 

[Sailor.X]

Then explain it. Since "based on the golden rule" is basically a circular answer for "internally consistent moral framework".

"Treat others like you would like to be treated." is another way of saying "have internally consistent criteria for your actions." pretty much.

Or like Jesus literally said. "Love thy neighbor as thyself."

 

[Cherico]

All right this isn't an insult to athiests but I honestly feel like this is the truth.


Sooner or later every athiest and a great chunk of religious people too, have to deal with the question of nihilsm. You have to grapple with the idea that your life doesnt have objective meaning and your going to have to create that meaning and that purpose for yourself and that is not fun.

Sooner or later all athiests have to deal with those philopical and existential issues and questions. Athiesm isnt all fun and games where you get to skip church. Theirs a price you have to pay and that price is the philosopical journey that your going to have to take at some point.

And that journey it isnt fun at all, but if you can over come your shadow, create meaning and purpose for your own life you can walk out the other side a stronger person, but not every one's able to do it. Some people simply cant deal with nihilism and are not willing to walk that path. So they turn to some 'movement' or some easy way to develope that meaning, and that can get very ugly very fast.


Being an atheist is at the end of the day not an easy path its not the path of least resistance theirs a journey you have to take and it is not going to be an easy one. They don't get to skip all of the moral, philophical, and other questions instead they have to tackle them all on their own and forge their own path in life.

Not fun.

 

[Urabrask Revealed]

Being an atheist is at the end of the day not an easy path its not the path of least resistance theirs a journey you have to take and it is not going to be an easy one. They don't get to skip all of the moral, philophical, and other questions instead they have to tackle them all on their own and forge their own path in life.

Not fun.

Wasn't that something Nietzche tried to tackle with his various works? If I understood it correctly, most, if not all, of those self-proclaimed nihilists are not the Übermensch, but rather the Last Man as they decide to embrace hedonism and causes that are not of their own making. A true nietzchian Übermensch would create his own causes and rules, be... I dunno, different?

 

[Captain X]

Actually the main reason atheism isn't fun is thanks to religious people not leaving well enough alone.