The (self inflicted) Death of Europe
- Thread starter Emperor Tippy
- Start date
Not saying that I am saying Christians and Jews have done more for Western Civilization than Atheists ever will. History has already proven that.
Just google all of the great people of European History and look at what religion they were. Answer me this if Atheism has been so great. How come it is currently presiding over the Fall of Europe?Now you just sound full of yourself.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Okay, though I’m really wondering why most Atheists look to be Communists or very very Far Left Leaning or Statist or kinda obsessed with Centralization
They like what that Marxs fellow wrote down. That I what I think at least. Look at how many of them on Spacebattles have Joe Stalin Avatars.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
prinCZess
Warrior, Writer, Performer, Perv
Some pretty major other factors working there. Two World Wars fought majorly on European soil with death tolls in the tens of millions on a continent with only ~400 million in total at the time(s) and massive decolonization and aftereffects of those wars prominent among them in spurring European decline. Also, decline began a good while before secularization did in the 60s--and even to this day there's a good bit of Europe who remain religious (Poland as the obvious example--and their religiosity didn't spare them fifty years of gun-enforced Soviet 'brotherhood'), so unless we're dartboarding a new Golden Age for the Poles, this kind of providentialism seems ill-placed.
Eastern Europe does not seem to be having the problems Western Europe is having with the exception of Ukraine for obvious reasons.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Those former-current Communists have more balls than the ones in the West
They were polytheistic. The Greeks and Romans had their gods and goddesses for a lot longer than Judaism and Christianity has been around. You realize that them and Islam are still referred to as "young" religions, right?
I could make the same kind of argument about any religion presiding over many past horrors that have taken place, including what was done to the indigenous peoples of the Americas. I'm not saying Natives were perfect little angels either, but look up the Sand Creek massacre sometime and tell me that's what good Christian folk do.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
By that logic, we could blame basically anything that happened around the time the decline started, or even claim that the opposite is the case; that instead of "forsaking god" causing the decline, the decline caused them to "forsake god". Correlation does not imply causation.
For many, if not most people, they want there to be a higher power that is in charge of destiny. They find the idea comforting and they find the idea of ultimate justice to help deal with the petty injustices of life.
If you remove religious belief, you don't remove that urge, and so many people will then focus that desire for something in ultimate control that provides justice to the next most powerful REAL thing they can see: government. Thus the strong correlation between atheism and leftist, big government politics, esp. communism. Those systems offer "justice" against the small injustices that they see and gives them assurance of being cared for and something being in control.
This doesn't apply to all atheists, of course, but I think it might explain the correlation. There's other reasons for it too, like, in the US, the alliance between religion and the right (and thus rejection of religion also entailing a rejection of right wing politics), as well as the more ready embrace of the sexual revolution by the left wing.
Believe what you want but Eastern Europe that still remains Christian is not having the trouble Western Europe is. And if Western Europe does not change they will deserve what they get.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
You're missing a couple of key factors here:
1. Atheist regimes dominated and instigated the European part of WWII.
2. While in the USA 'mainstream culture' started to secularize in the 1960's, it was actually in the 1800's that the culture of the leadership of the USA and Europe began to abandon Christianity. The 1860's to 1900's is the more key time-period I've been able to localize it to for academia. By the time Woodrow Wilson took the presidency, he was openly espousing blatantly counter-Christian ideas, even if he paid Christianity lip service.
3. WWI was not started, fought in the manner of, or concluded in a manner befitting the teachings of Christ. Obviously. It was a nasty, bloody, brutally harsh business, but, there were still some constraints. I'm sure most everyone here has heard of the Christmas cease-fire that happened during WWI. WWII, was fought with those constraints almost completely removed, and it dwarfed the brutality and slaughter of WWI.
Certainly, there are all kinds of things done by western nations, both as explicit government policy, and as products of citizens acting outside of that, that were horrible. From a Christian framework, you can say that these things were wrong, in violation of God's Law, and should not have been done.
From an atheistic framework, morality is nothing more than a matter of personal preference, and there's no ethical difference between deploying chemical weapons against your own citizens, and pouring gasoline down an ant-hole in your back yard.
This is clearly reflected in the relative scales of brutality inflicted by 'Christendom' over the centuries it dominated Europe, and in the 20th century alone by totalitarian atheist regimes.
ShadowsOfParadox
Well-known member
... ... ...I dunno, I feel like this stance utterly ignores the simple fact that many/most of those atrocities were simply out of reach of 'Christendom' due to to technological constraints.
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
That makes a lot of sense, I think Libertarianism is something they feel as to being “left up to chance” whereas they believe Government=God to be a definite solution, even when it’s not
Having faith in people making use of logic and being smart enough to care for themselves, is for them very unlikely and gives too much agency to human beings
I think in a way, their Communist-Atheism is very Anti-Human or Anti-Individual, they actually think the majority of individuals are a bunch of stupid and crazy immoral douchebags and society or government needs to act as a lynchpin with tighter constraints and centralization of power
It’s why they shit on guys who like Capitalism, but like the Capitalists who work with them more
It’s why they are Anti-Gun but only really think that those in government should be allowed them or those associated with government or their politics should have them
Hell, I think it’s why Environmentalism is a thing, they don’t love the environment to actually help it, they just hate humans using it
More Equal Than Others.....more will pop up
They are Anti-Human, never Pro-Human, Anti-Human means that they don’t really want to do or look for ways to really fix humans, Pro-Human may mean you are willing to see tbe flaws and still give them freedom but see that they need better or increased knowledge and solidifcations of knowlefge to fix things
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Terthna
Professional Lurker
Speaking as a former atheist, I reject the idea that amorality is an integral component of Athiesim. You do not need to be religious, let alone Christian, to have a functional moral framework and know that deploying chemical weapons against innocent people is wrong!
CarlManvers2019
Writers Blocked Douchebag
Amen to that brother
That said, I think there really is an obsession with having a government or political figure as their replacement “God” or using an ideaology with “It wikl work if we do Communism and get paradise” sorts
They too have that belief of guaranteed saving
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
You can have a moral framework, but it's not one that's logically consistent with a naturalistic view of the universe. Plenty of atheists are moral people, but that is no more or less rationally consistent with atheism, than being utterly amoral, or completely immoral.