Star Wars The Mandalorian

[Sailor.X]

That's a fanon theory at best, based on the horns on the Armorer's helmet. Nothing seen of the Children's actual theology shows any Sith influence. And Bo-Katan was literally the one who partnered Death Watch with Maul in the first place.

If I am not mistaken the Armorer in Season 2 was kind of a fan of Maul. I will have to rewatch that episode to be sure.

Uh what?
She was woth the Owls by that point

You are correct.

No, the part where Bo-Katan was at fault was trusting the Rebel Alliance when the Republic and the Jedi have always been implacably hostile to Mandalore.

The last time Mandalore actually tried to focus on peace, the Republic came along after about 300 years of zero aggression from the Mandalorians and decided that Mandalore being prosperous constituted an inherent threat to the Republic and launched a preemptive genocide euphemistically referred to as "The Excision". The Jedi "protested" but ultimately fully participated in this genocide, which included large scale orbital bombardment of Mandalore.

Bo-Katan's family, Clan Kryze, subsequently rose to power as the leading collaborators with the puppet government the Republic placed over the survivors of the genocide, who sought to "finish the job" of wiping out their own people via cultural genocide and then joining the Republic. Bo-Katan herself was one of the ones who rebelled against this, but went to the other end of the crazy pendulum by joining the Death Watch terrorist movement

Why shouldn't Bo have trusted the Rebels. She saw what Palpatines end goal was for Mandalore. Abject slavery to the Empire. Mandalore just like many worlds in the years leading up to the Battle of Yavin wanted to be free of the Empire. Unless you are advocating for Bo to go whole hog into supporting the Evil Empire.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Why shouldn't Bo have trusted the Rebels. She saw what Palpatines end goal was for Mandalore. Abject slavery to the Empire. Mandalore just like many worlds in the years leading up to the Battle of Yavin wanted to be free of the Empire. Unless you are advocating for Bo to go whole hog into supporting the Evil Empire.

The whole discussion of "trusting the Republic/Rebels" is silly anyways. It's because of the Rebels that Mandalore was freed from the Imperial backed Clan Saxon as shown in Rebels. The only way to prevent Mandalore from getting blasted would be by accepting Imperial/Clan Saxon Rule which really wouldn't be an interesting storyline to visit in Rebels I assume.

Obviously Bo Katan (and everyone else) didn't know that in hindsight but... there you go. Not every Rebel planet has plot armor and/or purgils (or other assorted space cetaceans) to protect them apparently.

That's a fanon theory at best, based on the horns on the Armorer's helmet. Nothing seen of the Children's actual theology shows any Sith influence. And Bo-Katan was literally the one who partnered Death Watch with Maul in the first place.

I first heard about that fanon theory on this very forum in fact.

Yeah, except notice the distinct horns on the Armorer's helmet? They make it explicitly clear that Din's covert came from the portion of Death Watch that was loyal to Maul. (Although why the Armorer has a Maul loyalist helmet while apparently only having a vague idea what the Jedi are does raise its own questions.)

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Uh what?
She was woth the Owls by that point

The Nite Owls were basically her personal unit of Death Watch.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

I first heard about that fanon theory on this very forum in fact.

I still think it’s probably accurate, but nothing in canon since then has actually confirmed it.

It’s also worth acknowledging that the *Armorer* having history with Maul’s faction doesn’t mean the Children as a whole do.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Actress is in her early 40s, but given her presence in the Clone Wars, the character has to be substantially older.

The first time we see her is ~20 BBY, and at that point she's Vizla's right-hand woman in Death Watch, a role that wouldn't make sense for a freshly recruited teenager. So even assuming she's only in her twenties then, she can't be younger than fifty as of Mandalorian.

Moreover, Satine was already an adult political leader by 42 BBY, so she would be 70 if she hadn't died, and Bo-Katan doesn't appear to be THAT MUCH younger than her. From that, I'd argue that late fifties to early sixties is the most plausible age range for Bo-Katan here, she just wears it well and probably had access to the very best medical tech for her whole life.

keep in mind that both Bacta and Kolta (at least in the EU) are said to be able to rjuvinate things at a cellular level (Why it doesin't work for Anakin beyond plot I have no Idea.) so aging is probably not near as big an issue in the star wars universe as it is in our universe

 

[Sailor.X]

You know it would be a Plot Curveball for Grogu of all people to tame the Mythosaur. I wonder how that would affect leadership in Mandalore because well he is a baby. Also shipping inbound from the fans for Bo and Dinn to hook up. I have seen the posts already.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Grogu claims the Darksaber AND tames the Mythosaur, becomes Mandalore. All Mandalorians now speak backwards. The Way, This Is.

 

[Bacle]

1. Din's religion is a little bit silly, but the thing is, the Children of the Watch literally saved his life and raised him into the man he is today. He's absolutely and utterly sincere about his beliefs and he isn't giving them up at the drop of a plot convenience. That's something I think deserves a lot of respect. Bo-Katan doesn't believe in the "silly religion"; she's also literally a useless, depressed lump of sitting around basking in her self-loathing.

(Perhaps she, Obi-Wan, and Yoda should start a club.)

2. Lightsabers are harder to use than it looks due to the massless blade, and the Darksaber is said to be *especially* tricky, doubly so for a non-Force user.

3. Yeah, she can stop being a depressed lump of useless when there's an actual mission on the table. She *does* care, it's just...without a specific goal, all she had to do was wallow in her failure.

4. Like she told Grogu, "Did you think your dad was the only Mandalorian?" She's very, VERY experienced and has top-of-the-line Mando gear.

5. Remember that Bo-Katan had it or the entire period of time between when she was given it in Rebels and when the Empire blew everything to hell. She's had a lot more time and opportunity to practice with it than Din has, *plus* more motive to actually do so, on top of being overall a much more experienced warrior than he is.

6. Bo was reading the plaque out loud while she was semi-sarcastically giving him the "grand tour", while Din was staring at the Living Waters. It's not that he couldn't read Mando'a, it's that he wasn't looking.

7. Because he was too busy having a sincere moment of awe to think through what he was doing, and he had NO idea the stairs dropped off so suddenly. (For that matter, Bo-Katan didn't seem to anticipate that being a thing, implying that the abrupt cut was due to collapse rather than it was always that way.)


And while your point about heroism doesn't necessarily make for good leadership, Bo-Katan has also made her own foolish decisions in plenty, including some that pretty much directly led to the most recent round of genocide against the Mandalorian people, and that's on top of her family's entire legitimacy as 'rulers of Mandalore' being extremely questionable in the first place.

House Kryze and the New Mandalorians were literally the puppet government put in place by the Republic specifically to finish the job of genocide that was kicked off by what even the Jedi euphemistically call 'the Excision'. The NMs were even the ones who set up the Jedi at Galidraan to murder off the True Mandalorians specifically because the TMs were starting to form a legitimate opposition, and at several points cooperated with Death Watch for the exact same reason.

Hmm...wouldn't this all mean that Boba and Omega are effectively the last surviving 'True Mandos' outside of the older parts of Deathwatch, due to Jango effectively being the last of those who survived Galidraan?

 

[Jormungandr]

Hmm...wouldn't this all mean that Boba and Omega are effectively the last surviving 'True Mandos' outside of the older parts of Deathwatch, due to Jango effectively being the last of those who survived Galidraan?

As much as I hate to say it, we don't know if Omega is even still alive by this time-frame.

For all we know, she might die in the series (not a season) finale of Bad Batch, or something.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

As much as I hate to say it, we don't know if Omega is even still alive by this time-frame.

For all we know, she might die in the series (not a season) finale of Bad Batch, or something.

Thing is Omega runs into the same problem Ahsoka has, she's introduced years after the OG story has all been told so where has she been all of this time?

 

[Bacle]

As much as I hate to say it, we don't know if Omega is even still alive by this time-frame.

For all we know, she might die in the series (not a season) finale of Bad Batch, or something.

See, I rather doubt that Omega's dead by the time of Scarrif.

Rogue One is the first time we here her name, even if we don't know about her yet, the 'Mark: Omega' project in the archives on Scariff that is mentioned in passing as they hunt for the Death Star plans.

That name makes me think that Omega is still at large as of Scariff, with a bounty 'Mark' on her with select hunters (like Cad Bane, since we know he was around and had hunted her in the past).

Also, Fennec mentions she is wanted by the ISB, and she already showed she was hired by Lama Su to protect Omega from the Empire, not just turn her over for a bounty. So I think Fennec may have helped/will help hide Omega from Palp's, which is why the Empire is likely hunting her as of Scariff, even if the rest of of the Bad Batch is likely dead or retired by then.

It's all circumstantial, I will admit, but I think there is something to these hints. Filoni likes playing the long game with hints and call backs used for future plots.

 

[Jormungandr]

Don't get me wrong: I don't hate her character nor wish her dead, but outside of hints, we know nothing concrete.

 

[Sailor.X]

Don't get me wrong: I don't hate her character nor wish her dead, but outside of hints, we know nothing concrete.

I think people keep forgetting that the Galactic Civil War is a galaxy spanning war. Ahsoka, Omega. The remaining members of the Bad Batch could very well be combating imperials on a completely nother front from the Main gang we see in the Original Trilogy. To give an Earth example. Just because Gen Patton was fighting in Europe does not mean Admiral Nimitz was not fighting in the Pacific. Same thing here.

 

[Robovski]

I think people keep forgetting that the Galactic Civil War is a galaxy spanning war. Ahsoka, Omega. The remaining members of the Bad Batch could very well be combating imperials on a completely nother front from the Main gang we see in the Original Trilogy. To give an Earth example. Just because Gen Patton was fighting in Europe does not mean Admiral Nimitz was not fighting in the Pacific. Same thing here.

Yes, despite the best hacky efforts of bad writing, the galaxy is huge and can have whole aspects, planets, and plots completely unexplored and not interacting with all the other characters we've seen.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Why shouldn't Bo have trusted the Rebels. She saw what Palpatines end goal was for Mandalore. Abject slavery to the Empire. Mandalore just like many worlds in the years leading up to the Battle of Yavin wanted to be free of the Empire. Unless you are advocating for Bo to go whole hog into supporting the Evil Empire.

Bo shouldn’t have trusted the Rebels because they are the Alliance to Restore the Republic…

. . . the very same Republic whose response to 300+ years of being left alone while Mandalore focused on economic revitalization and defense of its local system from rampant piracy was, “Mandalore is peaceful and prosperous, THIS IS AN INTOLERABLE THREAT TO THE REPUBLIC, send the Fleet and the Jedi to preemptively murder them all!"

The Empire wants to enslave them, the Republic wants them wiped out as un-Republic wrongthink . Going into *open rebellion* was the worst possible move, as opposed to keeping their heads down and not *openly* siding with the Rebels without at least getting solid guarantees of actual support against the inevitable Imperial assault.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Hmm...wouldn't this all mean that Boba and Omega are effectively the last surviving 'True Mandos' outside of the older parts of Deathwatch, due to Jango effectively being the last of those who survived Galidraan?

Maybe, but not really. The True Mandalorians as a specific faction were gone after Galidraan, with Jango seeking revenge against Death Watch but doing so as an individual warrior and making no attempts to rebuild the group. Once he killed Tor Viszla, Jango deemed the score settled and spent the rest of his life as a bounty hunter with no larger ambitions. There’s no indication that he raised Boba with any knowledge of True Mandalorian doctrine, although Boba does appear to have a degree of general knowledge of Mandalorian culture.

On the other hand, Bo-Katan’s cantina confrontation with Boba quite clearly indicates that *even* when trying to recruit every possible Mandalorian to her cause, she — like her sister Satine — emphatically disagrees with the idea that the Fett clones are Mandalorian in any way.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

To summarize the history between Maul and Bo-Katan:

Bo-Katan and Pre Vizsla were the leaders of Death Watch who allied the group with Maul to overthrow the New Mandalorian collaborator government under Satine. After they successfully liberated Mandalore, Vizla turned on Maul, who defeated him in a duel per Mandalorian tradition and claimed the Darksaber. Bo-Katan then declared that regardless of now having rightful possession of the Darksaber, Maul was an outsider and she didn't recognize his authority. She however refused to actually challenge him for the Darksaber, leading to Death Watch becoming split between the traditionalists who held that Maul was rightful Mand'alor, and Bo-Katan's faction that held otherwise.

(One can note here that even though she violently disagreed with her sister's pacifism, Bo-Katan does appear, both with Maul and with Fett, to reject the idea that Mandalorians exist on the basis of culture and belief, and instead sees them as a planetary racial group.)

----

Per traditional Mandalorian views, the "rightful Mand'alor" at this point would be Sabine Wren since she took it from Gar Saxon in battle and then was not defeated for it by Bo-Katan or Moff Gideon, Din Djarin for taking it from Moff Gideon in battle, or possibly no one since Din didn't take it from a Mandalorian. Precedent for that being that Sabine previously had possession of the Darksaber after recovering it from Dathomir where Maul had brought it, but as she had not fought Maul for it, appears to not have been considered a full-fledged wielder until Saxon took it from her and then she took it back in proper duel.

In practical terms, Din currently has possession and Bo-Katan seems disinclined to challenge him for it, but he'd probably have to have a Black Panther style formal challenge against all rival claimants in order to be generally acknowledged as Mand'alor.

 

[Sailor.X]

To summarize the history between Maul and Bo-Katan:

Bo-Katan and Pre Vizsla were the leaders of Death Watch who allied the group with Maul to overthrow the New Mandalorian collaborator government under Satine. After they successfully liberated Mandalore, Vizla turned on Maul, who defeated him in a duel per Mandalorian tradition and claimed the Darksaber. Bo-Katan then declared that regardless of now having rightful possession of the Darksaber, Maul was an outsider and she didn't recognize his authority. She however refused to actually challenge him for the Darksaber, leading to Death Watch becoming split between the traditionalists who held that Maul was rightful Mand'alor, and Bo-Katan's faction that held otherwise.

(One can note here that even though she violently disagreed with her sister's pacifism, Bo-Katan does appear, both with Maul and with Fett, to reject the idea that Mandalorians exist on the basis of culture and belief, and instead sees them as a planetary racial group.)

----

Per traditional Mandalorian views, the "rightful Mand'alor" at this point would be Sabine Wren since she took it from Gar Saxon in battle and then was not defeated for it by Bo-Katan or Moff Gideon, Din Djarin for taking it from Moff Gideon in battle, or possibly no one since Din didn't take it from a Mandalorian. Precedent for that being that Sabine previously had possession of the Darksaber after recovering it from Dathomir where Maul had brought it, but as she had not fought Maul for it, appears to not have been considered a full-fledged wielder until Saxon took it from her and then she took it back in proper duel.

In practical terms, Din currently has possession and Bo-Katan seems disinclined to challenge him for it, but he'd probably have to have a Black Panther style formal challenge against all rival claimants in order to be generally acknowledged as Mand'alor.

Technically Great Value Grevious defeated Dinn and lost the Darksaber. And Bo found it and took it back by defeating Great Value Grevious.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Technically Great Value Grevious defeated Dinn and lost the Darksaber. And Bo found it and took it back by defeating Great Value Grevious.

I think that might have actually been a cyberized dianoga. The eye looked quite a bit like one, and EU lore had actually declared that dianogas are a sentient species and such.

However, that was definitely not a proper duel.

 

[Sailor.X]

I think that might have actually been a cyberized dianoga. The eye looked quite a bit like one, and EU lore had actually declared that dianogas are a sentient species and such.

However, that was definitely not a proper duel.

Dinn lost the Saber in combat. He was literally bested. He can't just say mine again when he is literally rescued by Bo wielding the Saber. If other Mandos had seen the fight. Would they have wanted Dinn to remain Mandalore if he lost a fight in such a manner? I think not.