FTFY
Every single one of your "Pros" is eliminated b/c they are actually deficient in these areas compared to Space Marines.
Oh wow, such high-level analysis. You crossed out all the pros on one side and insisted they sucked. Keep going and
@Agent23 will take you under his wing.
Yes, scenario 2 may provide a powerful grenade launcher. I'm not overly expectant of that threatening more than a couple Marines.
Lol, the grenade has a yield equal to 41.84 gigajoules or a 10 ton bomb. That's equal to the power of a US MOAB. If it lands amid those Space Marines, they're basically fucked. Anything within 10 meters is basically vaporized.
But hey, let's avoid any actual debate and just repeat SPASH MARIEEENES! You're totes coming off as the winners.
To recapitulate the whole argument above, you want to deal with trees, when the whole issue should be evaluated from the point of view of the forest.
Let me translate that for all of you at home:
"I'm going to reframe the discussion so you look like an idiot who is over-focused on details, while I instead focus on the "big picture"...which doesn't at all require me to present evidence or refute yours."
What's more, it's clear that you're aiming to establish, arbitrary rules that contradict WH40k lore, but will eminently help Starfleet soldiers.
So explain that to me.
I present evidence on Starfleet capabilities, performance, and so forth. You and several others talk trash about Starfleet, refuse to address what I posted, and insist that Starfleet will lose because MY SPASH MARINEZ. Then I present evidence of actual Space Marine combat performanc. Instead of presenting compelling counter-evidence, you present text from a novel that is either flowery or exaggerated, which doesn't even hold up to basic scientific scrutiny when applied literally. Then complain when I point out the problems of taking novel descriptions as literal.
Nevertheless, let's continue with what a typical clash will look like.
You mean fanfiction that is in no way supported by evidence and can thus be safely dismissed.
Let's assume that Starfleet soldiers in a force of 10 men (by the way, according to WH40K lore, one marine is 100 men, so that's 1/10th of a marine's strength) will face classic Marines in the form of a Tactical Squad.
Yeah, because that's not just fanboy propaganda.
The Tactical Branch, quoting Astronomican
It must be imbued with knowledge of war and trained in all weapons as well as strategy. He will attack his enemies, wielding an assault blade, a bolter and a grenade. But this is a tool only, because his real weapons are courage, consciousness of mind and devotion to his brothers.
- Part of the description of Tactical Marines according to Codex Astartes
According to the above part of the description, a Tactical Marine can only become a space marine who has proven himself on the battlefield, having been a member of several campaigns as a member of a heavy support team as well as an assault team, where he acquired valuable experience, which are hand-to-hand combat, ranged combat, various strategies and tactics, gained over decades or even hundreds of years. Unfortunately, this is one of several conditions to join this team. Another condition to get the honor of joining a team of tactical marines is to be flexible, i.e. a Marine who wants to be in a tactical team must NOT devote himself to one style of fighting, he must be flexible, for flexibility is what separates the Tactical Marines from the rest of the brothers.
What are you even trying to prove? That they're experienced in war? Sure, yeah...we all get it. No one is disputing that the Space Marines have more experience. What you have YET to prove is if that is a decisive advantage. Given their actual performance in combat...it really isn't. Not unless this fight were to take place at close-quarters or melee range, where that sort of advantage would really come into its own.
Tactics
Tactical marines are a truly special unit. The feature that sets them apart is flexibility, for they are the only team capable, so much so, of adapting well to the conditions on the battlefield. In other words. Tactical marines go into battle with a wide range of weapons that are on their equipment, using a variety of tactics ranging from simply flanking the enemy, to seizing and holding strategic points, to making quick trips on the Rhino transports assigned to them to the front line and relieving it, to great assaults on enemy strongholds and great defenses. It's impossible to count how many tactics they can use, for every now and then new tactics emerge, some better, some worse. What is certain, however, is that tactical teams are capable of using almost any of them.
Okay, but what does this have to do with the discussion? This is really just basic-level info.
Equipment
What distinguishes them from others is their flexibility, and their flexibility includes a wide range of generally available weapons, from a simple bolt gun, through bolters, laser cannons, etc., to a heavy rocket launcher. Only the imagination of the craftsmen who create the weapons limits their ability to use them, for every tactical marine is capable of handling every weapon this world has seen.
Basic equipment
Marines in tactical teams usually go into battle armed with their primary weapons, which are:
Combat Blades - which look like an enlarged combat knife. Marines use them during close combat, usually holding a bolt pistol in the other hand.
Bolter - the most common bolter used during ranged combat. It fires 0.75-inch bullets with its own recoil drive.
Bolt pistol - similar to the above with the difference that the magazine contains from 10-12 rounds. Used as a personal/back-up weapon.
Anti-personnel offensive and defensive grenades - the type used depends on the tactics chosen and is used to quickly eliminate large groupings of enemies.
Additional equipment
Tactical marines, depending on the situation, choose the weapon that is needed for the objectives of the mission, or with which they feel most comfortable. Regardless of the choice, such a team is able to proceed to destroy any target, from charging orcs to heavy dug-in vehicles. However, they would not succeed without these weapons, so they use:
Flamethrowers - Flamethrowers use a liquid (Promethium) that ignites when it comes into contact with air, creating a continuous and long stream of fire. Ideal against poorly armored enemies, those heavily dug in, or those sitting in bunkers.
Melta weapon - a weapon that uses a stream of heated gas to burn through any type of material. Starting from living tissue to thick armored plates. Unfortunately, the range of these weapons is really short, and the firing rate is not impressive. Most often used as pistols and rifles, less often as cannons.
Melta bombs - a specific type of melta weapon, which looks like a large grenade. It is fixed, or thrown on the armor of the enemy vehicle.
Plasma weapons - weapons that use magnetic fields to shoot streams of hot plasma. Burning through virtually anything. Most often used in the form of pistols and rifles, less often cannons.
Heavy bolters - used as in heavy support teams. Firing 0.998 caliber bullets, with their own recoil propulsion. Ideal weapons against massed masses of infantry.
Of course, ranged weapons are not everything, tactical fighters also have access to a wide range of melee weapons, which are:
Again, that might be interesting, but what does it add to this debate? I'm aware of most of the basic weapons that Space Marines use. How would these weapons prove to be a decisive advantage in most encounters between Starfleet and Space Marines in this scenario?
A typical tactical squad, it consists of 9 Battle Brothers equipped with the weapons mentioned above, and a Sergeant who, according to Astronicam
The commander of the tactical squad deserves special recognition, who in almost every case is a member of the elite First Company of his order, due to the fact that he is a veteran of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of battles, where he gained his experience and developed his skills. Veteran commanders of tactical squads command with extraordinary dedication and honor, striving to accomplish the mission, which, combined with the experienced brothers of the tactical squad, makes it one of the best formations an order can have. A commander, if he is a veteran, usually selects his equipment to fit a particular tactic, or to his own liking. Most often, however, commanders equip themselves with melee weapons and a bolt or plasma pistol so that they can confidently provide range support.
In view of this, let's consider that such a unit was equipped to fight light infantry.
In view of which, most of the squad will be armed with ordinary Bolters, let's consider that 5 Brothers will be equipped with them. 2 Brothers will get a Flamethrower, one Plasma Rifle, one Heavy Bolter.
Okay, so that's two Battle Brothers that are effectively eliminated as threats in what is obviously going to be a long to moderate range encounter.
The Commander, will have a Chain Sword and a Bolt gun.
The fight will be as follows, 5 Brothers will move ahead and tie up the enemy with fighting, the brother with the heavy Bolter after finding a suitable position, provided fire support. Brothers with flamethrowers, on the other hand, will use this to sneak up and take advantage of the fact that Starfleet Soldiers have no armor and burn them to ashes, or simply forge them from some position as they hide there. The commander, meanwhile, using his knowledge and wisdom, will look for gaps, distract the enemy with his obvious appearance, and, above all, command everyone as befits a non-commissioned officer. And a Brother with a Plasma Rifle serves as a Reserve Brother to be thrown in where ever he is needed.
That's adorable. Let's look at the evidence, however.
The Space Marines can only see what their eyes will show them and what their scanner can pick up. Their scanner is limited to 50 meters, so it's mostly just good for close-range engagements. Specifically urban combat settings. Starfleet will therefore have the initiative, because they would have picked the Space Marines out two kilometers away. That means the Federation chooses the battlefield. They'd choose one where they have the high ground and plenty of thanks to rocks, but one which offers the Space Marines little. They spread themselves along the area so as not to be clustered. They set their phasers to level 8.
The Space Marines enter the kill-zone. The Sergeant senses a trap. He immediately scans the high ground; the area where he himself would lay an ambush from. He sees movement. Spots the Federation soldiers already taking aim. He calls out to his brothers, who themselves have already caught on. Phasers slice through the air, bolters thunder. Explosions erupt all around the Sergeant as he tries to move toward the meager cover to the right.
The Sergeant hears screams all around him; his battle-brothers are dying. The wretched orange beams blast right through the armor and cook the marine within. The battle-brother carrying the heavy bolter was the first to die; he'd been one of the primary targets. Alongside him were two brothers carrying bolters and one carrying a flamer. Yet, they were avenged. In the brief moment when the Federation soldiers had exposed themselves, they had not anticipated the speed at which the Space Marines would react. Three Federation soldiers were blown apart by the bolter rounds; reducing them to bloody, foul gore.
The Sergeant leads his men to a mad dash for cover. They fire blindly at the Federation soldiers; the smoke and debris block any sight of their enemy, but their experience tells them where they ought to be and so they pick off two more of their ambushers. The Sergeant and his Marines are fast, covering the ground more quickly than the Federation soldiers had expected, but it's a straight line. The Federation phasers, armed with sophisticated targeting systems and holographic projectors, are not so easily foiled by smoke and debris. Three more battle-brothers are hit; two carrying bolters and the second flamer.
The Sergeant and his remaining men reach the rocks and dive for cover. Explosions blast apart the smaller rocks, and the larger boulders crack, and fracture. The Sergeant and his men have no time to rest. They move between cover, firing back at the enemy. A phaser blast catches one of the retreating Space Marines in the leg. The Marine Screams as his entire leg is blown off. He hits the ground. The phaser has disintegrated his leg and part of his torso, but he's miraculously still alive. He twists, aims his bolter, and sends two rounds straight into the chest of the offending Federation soldier who'd made the shot, blasting him to pieces. The spray of shrapnel wounds the soldier who'd been too close.
The Sergeant turns to aid his fallen brother to safety; his destroyed body could be repaired and augmented with cybernetics. He's too late; the Federation soldiers, presented with a still target, send three phaser beams into the battle-brother's chest, blasting him leaving nothing but a smoldering husk.
The Sergeant turns to his last remaining battle-brother. He's carrying the plasma rifle. The brother nods; they both understand what they must do; outnumbered more than two to one, they would not disgrace the Emperor by cowering behind rocks until their enemy could safely flank them. They wait only a few moments; the crucial moments that they know the enemy soldiers would take to move into a better position. Then the two act, as if guided by the same force.
They emerge from cover, plasma scorching the air as they fire. They picked their targets well. The Sergeant catches one enemy soldier clean in the torso, boiling his insides and setting his body aflame. Another soldier, whether by fortune or instinct, was only grazed by the other marine--but even so, the plasma round scorched flesh and set him aflame. The Battle-Sergeant sings a hymn to the God Emperor. His brother joins in--but his voice is brutally cut off when a phaser beam strikes him in the back. The marine's minature nuclear reactor explodes. He hits the ground, his insides burnt and full of fragments from his own armor.
The Sergeant sings louder. He turns his pistol upon the man who had taken the life of his brother. He sees the soldier ducking down, seeking to avoid death. The Sergeant squeezes the trigger, even as something bright and orange flashes into his sight. His chest feels warm, then painfully hot--then searing agony...followed by nothing.
In the wake of the fight, the Federation forces take stock of the battle; five dead and two gravely wounded soldiers.
I mean, I can write fanfiction to?
