Starfleet Ground Troops vs 40k Space Marines

No amount of Trekkie fan wank will ever enable an away team of red shirts to take on the Adeptus Astartes.

No amount of 40k circle jerking will eliminate all the direct evidence of Space Marines dying.

The away team gets surrounded, surprised, and riddled with bolter fire before they can do much at all.

You realize that Starfleet has tricorders, which would tell them where the Space Marines are long before they actually get close to them, right?

Perhaps a Battle Brother's pauldron gets singed.

That's if these guys aren't Raven Guard. In which case, the red shirts are dead before they can blink.

Singed? Did you not read any of the thread? A phaser set to 8 would probably blast a Space Marine's torso apart. Space Marine armor simply does not have the durability to resist a phaser set to 8. They might not even be able to hold off long against setting 7. There's a total of sixteen settings, each one more powerful than the last. This is a rural engagement with very little cover all things considered. The Space Marines are not going to find this a walk in the park. At best, they're probably going to take heavy casualties. At worst, none of them make it back.
 
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Ah good, Agent23 is here.

Don't worry everyone, we all know about Agent23's brilliant military and tactical commentary. You all remember how quickly and easily he called the Russian conquest of Ukraine last year? About those brilliant feints and traps that the Russians cleverly set for the Ukrainians? How the Russians cunningly sent wave after wave of unarmed, poorly trained troops to their death to lure the Ukrainians into a false sense of security?

So glad he's here to tell us how incompetent Starfleet is.


Out of curiosity, have you ever substantiated any claim you have ever made?

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That rock that Riker blew up in Hide and Q looked to be about a third of a cubic meter. Which would put the output of the Type I that he'd used at ~106 kilojoules. That same setting is enough to disintegrate humanoids. We see a similar effect in Arena, where a redshirt is vaporized by a disruptor shot, but those same shots create explosions when they hit the ground.

Seeing as Power Armor is typically penetrated by double-digit kilojoule bolter rounds, I very much doubt it's going to do well against a phaser.



Meaning what? Most combat situations either involve stun or the kill setting, which is setting 6 or 7. Starfleet would just need to increase the beam intensity on their phasers.
Pfftt, remind me how many times characters have been killed by phaser blasts without them getting disintegrated, or just suffering light damage.

This thread reeks so hard of lube and other fluids you'd think it was a certain mod's bedroom. 😂
 
Pfftt, remind me how many times characters have been killed by phaser blasts without them getting disintegrated,

Yes, because Setting 8 isn't the typical kill setting. That's setting 5, 6, or 7. We have an idea of what setting 7 will do to you:

TNG Night Terrors
WORF: Commander. Here's another one. This was done by a phaser on a setting of six or seven.

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Setting 8, by the way, was also powerful enough to vaporize noranium, which requires a temperature of 2,314 C.

TNG The Vengeance Factor
RIKER: We're here to establish a dialogue, Worf.
RIKER: Data, tell me about noranium. It vaporises at?
DATA: Two thousand three hundred fourteen degrees. Of course, noranium carbide
RIKER: Thank you, Data.

Iron melts at around 1,500 C. To melt just one kilogram of iron equates to roughly 40 kj of energy. Seeing as Setting 8 delivered the equal of about 106 KJs, that's pretty consistent.

or just suffering light damage.

I can think of two episodes off the top of my head, but that's it. Generally, a main shot to the torso is considered lethal. The first one was where Lore shot Doctor Crusher with a glancing blow to the arm, which set her arm on fire and would be consistent with setting 5. The other is where a glancing blow struck an extra in DS9's the Ship. The shot had been from a Jem'Hadar plasma weapon. The glancing blow had given the guy a bad wound and a special chemical in the plasma weapon basically led to him dying later on. The other extra that was in the episode was shot in the torso and died instantly.

Hits to the limbs aren't instantly lethal, but we know they can cause serious damage. In Nor the Battle for the Strong:
ENSIGN: I was stepping over a Klingon. I thought he was dead. He got me right in the foot. You people better get out of here while you still can. The Klingons, there's no stopping them.
BASHIR: This is a phaser burn.
ENSIGN: What are you talking about?
BASHIR: Just sit tight. We'll get to you as soon as we can.
ENSIGN: It's not a phaser burn! (to Jake) It was a Klingon. You weren't there. You don't know what it's like. The Klingons had us pinned down. We were done for. We all knew it. Hendriks and Pajal, they got scared. They ran. They ran! Then Sully got hit in the leg and the medics pulled him off the line. And all I could think was, I wish I were him. And I took my phaser. Oh, God! What did I do to myself? What did I do?

ENSIGN: Maybe I'll get a job as a cutter. Could be interesting work.
JAKE: What's a cutter?
ENSIGN: You know, on a mining team. They're the ones who split the asteroids up with phasers so the excavators can get at what's inside. You've got to have good aim. No matter what else you can say about me, you can't say that I don't have good aim. If I hadn't hit my foot just right, I would've taken my whole leg off. It's funny. One minute your life's moving along just like you always thought it would, and the next you do something that changes everything, that makes you realise you're not who you thought you were. At the Academy, I did really well in the battle simulations. I never had any problems. But when you're out there and the live shells are detonating all around you, it's a whole different thing.

There is also the Siege of AR-558, where Nog got hit in the leg by a Jem'Hadar plasma rifle:
QUARK: Now what happens? You will be able to replace the leg, won't you?
BASHIR: As soon as we can get him to a hospital, he can be fitted with a biosynthetic limb. Unfortunately, there may be complications.
QUARK: What's that supposed to mean?
BASHIR: Nog suffered severe thermal damage to his femoral motor nerves. I'm not sure they'll be able to stimulate artificial muscle tissue. In fact, there's no way to know until after the operation has been performed. I have to get inside.
And Nog was the lucky one. Larkin got shot in the back and was killed instantly. Either way you put it, losing a leg or nearly losing a leg is not "minor damage" and it certainly wasn't the phaser set to level 8.

This thread reeks so hard of lube and other fluids you'd think it was a certain mod's bedroom. 😂

Yes well, we shouldn't blame all 40k fans for your lack of standards.

What is more telling is that you talk a lot of trash, but you can't seem to back up any of your claims. Little wonder you spent the better part of a year being humiliated over your hot takes in regard to the Russian-Ukrainian War.
 
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Yes, because Setting 8 isn't the typical kill setting. That's setting 5, 6, or 7. We have an idea of what setting 7 will do to you:

TNG Night Terrors


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Setting 8, by the way, was also powerful enough to vaporize noranium, which requires a temperature of 2,314 C.

TNG The Vengeance Factor


Iron melts at around 1,500 C. To melt just one kilogram of iron equates to roughly 40 kj of energy.



I can think of two episodes off the top of my head, but that's it. Generally, a main shot to the torso is considered lethal. The first one was where Lore shot Doctor Crusher with a glancing blow to the arm, which set her arm on fire and would be consistent with setting 5. The other is where a glancing blow struck an extra in DS9's the Ship. The shot had been from a Jem'Hadar plasma weapon. The glancing blow had given the guy a bad wound and a special chemical in the plasma weapon basically led to him dying later on. The other extra that was in the episode was shot in the torso and died instantly.

Hits to the limbs aren't instantly lethal, but we know they can cause serious damage. In Nor the Battle for the Strong:





There is also the Siege of AR-558, where Nog got hit in the leg by a Jem'Hadar plasma rifle:

And Nog was the lucky one. Larkin got shot in the back and was killed instantly. Either way you put it, losing a leg or nearly losing a leg is not "minor damage" and it certainly wasn't the phaser set to level 8.




Yes well, we shouldn't blame all 40k fans for your lack of standards.
Pffttt.

Nothing a bolter or other 40k weapon can't do better.
 
Pffttt.

Nothing a bolter or other 40k weapon can't do better.

I'm just gonna assume you're referring to the corpse. In which case, not exactly. They're entirely different weapons with different means of inflicting damage.

First, the Bolter inflicts its damage to the human body primarily through kinetic energy. First, you have the round which penetrates with a KE of about 16-18 KJs. For those of you who are unaware, an .50 BMG fired by a M1 Browning has about 17 KJs of kinetic energy. So it would look something like this:



Except it would be fully automatic. So for someone whose wearing little to no armor, the first round would possibly overpenetrate and hit whatever is behind the target. For the person behind the target, you can basically expect their torso to explode. Second, in addition to the kinetic energy, you have the explosive round. If it's a shaped charge, you could easily kill 2-3, maybe 4 ranks deep with a bolter round. If not, you'd get 1-4 ranks deep, depending on how the charge works.

The phaser works by dumping subatomic particles into your body. On lower settings, this heats up the target. At higher levels, the NDF effect comes into play and we see most humanoids are disintegrated and things like rocks are blown apart. And yes, I do expect that Space Marines have weapons that can deal similar damage to Federation phasers. The thing is, those aren't their typical sidearms. They're either plasma rifles or rocket launchers or something similar.

Meanwhile, in Insurrection:


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Just eyeballing it, that looks to be about three cubic meters of rock blasted apart. Assuming that's split between three phasers, we'd get about 318 kilojoules each. And we also know that from TNG's The Mind's Eye, that these phasers can dump much more energy than just 318 kj into a target:

LAFORGE: Rapid nadion pulse, right on target. Beam control assembly, safety interlock, both checked out. Beam width intensity controls also responding correctly.
DATA: Energy cell usage remains constant at one point oh five megajoules per second. Curious. The efficiency reading on the discharge crystal is well above Starfleet specifications.
LAFORGE: Yeah, by quite a bit. Ninety four point one percent efficiency.
DATA: Our most efficient discharge crystal typically fires with eighty six point five percent efficiency.

According to Data, the energy cell usage was at 1.05 megajoules per second. Although this one isn't a geniune phaser rifle, it's so accurate that the only place where they find fault is with the discharge crystal being higher than Starfleet specifications. According to Data, their crystals fire at 86.5% efficiency, meaning 13.5% of the energy from the phaser is wasted. Accordingly, that would mean that the maximum discharge from Phaser II and III would be 908.25 kilojoules. That's approximately three times more powerful than the display that we saw with the phasers in Insurrection (where three were used).

So yes, Federation troops do absolutely carry the firepower necessary to take out a Space Marine. In fact, they carry enough power to absolutely overkill a Space Marine. After a phaser on 16 is through with a Battle Brother, the chapter Chaplin will be collecting their gene-seed remains with a dustpan.

I'll also assume that since you didn't respond to my counterpoint on your claim of phasers not doing any significant damage, you've retracted that claim. Just so there's no confusion. If I'm wrong, correct me and present your own evidence.
 
Pictured Below: @Agent23 smashing the 'HaHa' button when he's losing a debate.
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Nope, we have over 20 years of trek TV, and most of the time phasers are very far from the whank you post.
You'd think thet they would have used them for tunnel excavation, or fast area clearing if they were powerful enough.

The most memorable examples of a phaser being used in a novel way we're:
1) Using one to heat a rock for warmth in TOS.
2) Wide beam stun.

Both were never IIRC used widely again, so phasers are like all other pieces of trek tech, little more than totally inconsistent plot devices.

Now stop whanking.
 
Nope, we have over 20 years of trek TV, and most of the time phasers are very far from the whank you post.

Okay, then substantiate your claim.

Oh wait, you can't. Because I've asked three times already and you haven't provided one shred of evidence to support anything you say. You're as trustworthy as the Russian government. Less, actually.

At least they pretend to research their bullshit. You just stand there, protificating about how weak Starfleet is while @Lord Sovereign diligently cleans your cock.

You'd think thet they would have used them for tunnel excavation,

I suppose they could be used for tunnel excavation. Of course, seeing as they're meant to defend yourself with, not dig holes, I don't see what this has to do with anything.


or fast area clearing if they were powerful enough.

Meaning what? What do you mean by fast area clearing? Do you mean taking out multiple enemies?

The most memorable examples of a phaser being used in a novel way we're:
1) Using one to heat a rock for warmth in TOS.

I literally just posted an example of them using it to vaporize material at excess of two thousand degrees Celsius in TNG, so let's not pretend it's only in TOS.

2) Wide beam stun.

Both were never IIRC used widely again, so phasers are like all other pieces of trek tech, little more than totally inconsistent plot devices.

Now stop whanking.

Oh, used once and never again, huh?

Let's see.
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Well, that's one.
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That's two.
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That's three.
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That's four.
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That's Five.
TNG: Frame of Mind
RIKER: No. If this is a real phaser, then I was on the Enterprise. But I fired it on myself, so I should be dead. None of this is real. I'm setting this to level sixteen, wide field. That should destroy half of this building. Unless, of course, this isn't a real phaser.
That's six.

TNG: Power Play
RIKER: What about flooding their air vents with anaesthezine gas?
LAFORGE: That won't affect Data. No rescue plan will work unless we can knock out all three of them.
RIKER: A concussive charge would blow out the security fields. We could go in with phasers on wide beam, stun everybody. Sort it out later.
That's seven.
VOY: Worst Case Scenario
SESKA: I wouldn't do that if I were you. This phaser's set on wide beam. I could take you all in one shot.
CHAKOTAY: Everybody, drop your weapons.
NEELIX: You heard the man. Drop your weapons. Don't look so surprised, Commander. I know a winner when I see one. I'm with you.
SESKA: Do you want me to shoot him?
CHAKOTAY: We're still going to need a cook. Chakotay to Engineering. What's your status?
And that would be eight.

I guess that makes 8 our magic number for today kids!
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@Agent23 has proven 8 times in one post how much of a fucking idiot he really is.
 
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???

Exhibit A.

Only if they've got Iron Halos or some equivalent kind of energy shielding. Ceramite isn't going to cut it.

Causing a chain reaction in an energy facility, with a very high phaser setting, isn’t quite the same as some random redshirt, whose weapon is going to be on a more normal modulation, taking a shot at a Battle Brother in full power armour.

And a bolter sure as shit don’t need frequency modulation to turn a person into crimson mist with one or two hits.
 
Causing a chain reaction in an energy facility, with a very high phaser setting, isn’t quite the same as some random redshirt, whose weapon is going to be on a more normal modulation, taking a shot at a Battle Brother in full power armour.

And a bolter sure as shit don’t need frequency modulation to turn a person into crimson mist with one or two hits.
And from the new codex we have it as canon that IG lasrifles can melt through tank armor.

So, I'd say that phasers might be on par with the weakest of mass produced, cheap 40k weapons.
 
And from the new codex we have it as canon that IG lasrifles can melt through tank armor.

So, I'd say that phasers might be on par with the weakest of mass produced, cheap 40k weapons.

I wouldn't be that harsh. A phaser on maximum setting is one scary piece of kit, but they aren't usually on higher settings because, like a lasgun, it will burn through energy and run the risk of malfunctioning.

Phasers made body armour semi-irrelevant in Star Trek (although it really shouldn't be, as armour is meant more for shrapnel and debris than direct hits), but I don't think anyone ever made Mk VIII power armour in the Alpha Quadrant.
 
I wouldn't be that harsh. A phaser on maximum setting is one scary piece of kit, but they aren't usually on higher settings because, like a lasgun, it will burn through energy and run the risk of malfunctioning.
Or, given that this is trek, it will open a negative space wedgie or something.
Phasers made body armour semi-irrelevant in Star Trek (although it really shouldn't be, as armour is meant more for shrapnel and debris than direct hits), but I don't think anyone ever made Mk VIII power armour in the Alpha Quadrant.
they didn't, and we have seen that plasma based weapons and the like can still do lots of damage in Trek.
 
I wouldn't be that harsh. A phaser on maximum setting is one scary piece of kit, but they aren't usually on higher settings because, like a lasgun, it will burn through energy and run the risk of malfunctioning.

Oh, you can talk.

Let me ask you this. Do you have any proof of what you just said? Because multiple high-powered shots were fired during Arena and Hide and Q without any real concern for how much energy they were using. Then of course, we have Data and LaForge testing a phaser at high power (probably maximum power) in The Mind's Eye for the first 35 seconds and then another 17 seconds, for a total of 52 seconds. According to the dialogue, the power cell had been drained of 54.6 MJs and had sustained firing (without any indication of overheating or any other limits--but let's leave that aside) for 35 seconds, suggesting that the rifle can sustain at least a half minute of fire before there might be any problems. According to the TNG TM, a Phaser III power cell holds 67.5 MJ. This is roughly in line with what we see in the episode.

Phasers made body armour semi-irrelevant in Star Trek (although it really shouldn't be, as armour is meant more for shrapnel and debris than direct hits), but I don't think anyone ever made Mk VIII power armour in the Alpha Quadrant.

Because 40k Power Armor in ST would make no sense. It's too bulky to do anything other than make you an easy target against a weapon that could effortlessly vaporize you. Starfleet--and not just Starfleet, but the Klingons*, Romulans, Remans, Jem'Hadar, and the Cardassians all seem to favor situational awareness and mobility over physical protection. The armor we do see them use tends to be light and not all that thick, probably some sort of ablative armor that causes the incoming energy weapon to be spread over a wider area. The overall armor design philosophy indicates that they're all much more concerned about being hit with an energy weapon than shrapnel protection.

Thick armor like you see in 40k only makes sense from a design philosophy if the armor is more durable than most of anything the enemy can throw at it. For 40k, which can be defeated by bolter rounds, that would be around the 14-18 kj range. Lasweapons, being lasers, are probably single-digit KJ and would need serious dwell time to penetrate Space Marine armor, not including any sort of ablative coating. You generally need something closer to anti-tank round to hurt a Space Marine or a Necron gaus flayer, which is rated in the megawatt range.

*To be entirely fair to the Klingons, they supposedly have really thick skulls...so maybe they're already wearing helmets.
 
Causing a chain reaction in an energy facility,
That's a water pump.
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with a very high phaser setting,
We actually don't know what the setting was. It may have been 8 or 10 or 12.

isn’t quite the same as some random redshirt, whose weapon is going to be on a more normal modulation, taking a shot at a Battle Brother in full power armour.

You realize they just need to go from setting 6 or 7 (kill settings) to 8, right? Even setting seven would be powerful enough to melt iron within a second. We're talking about 40 kj of energy. Since the Space Marine armor is certainly not organic, the NDF effect is going to be lower, so being a particle weapon, most of that energy is going to penetrate until it hits the actual Space Marine inside (at which point, the NDF effect takes over and the guy inside is simply fucked).

And a bolter sure as shit don’t need frequency modulation to turn a person into crimson mist with one or two hits.

That's true. But we're talking about them simply adjusting a setting by one or two presses, not them needing to reprogram the whole thing. And Starfleet will probably have a range advantage, seeing as they'd be using rifles and we know from Arena that the maximum range on a phaser (on 8, mind you) is about 1,500 meters.
 
Let me make something clear about SM armor. Bolter rounds do not normally penetrate Space Marine Armor. It takes repeated hits or specifically hitting a weak spot to penetrate.

I call bullshit.

It doesn't seem like it takes more than 1-3 rounds to penetrate their armor. Honestly, at best it seems like it takes between 1-4 rounds to kill a Space Marine with bolter rounds.
We can see similar results earlier in the movie:

Maybe at longer ranges, if the bullet has lost energy, but these Black Legion and Ultramarines were putting holes in each other pretty easily and consistently.

Even if we argue that it takes 2-3 bullets, we're talking about 32-48 kj of energy. That would still not stand up to a phaser on setting 8, which is twice as powerful. To get that, you'd need to argue that these guys could each tank 9-10 bullets in roughly the same area, which is clearly not what we saw in either of those clips.
 

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