But you see Monk, that is from the books. Animations show differently
Yes, the animations that Gamesworkshop had commissioned, oversaw, and then approved for release.
Along with their edition promotions.
But you see Monk, that is from the books. Animations show differently
Someone catch me up to date, what's the counter to Spacemarines speedblitz aim botting?
I call bullshit.
It doesn't seem like it takes more than 1-3 rounds to penetrate their armor. Honestly, at best it seems like it takes between 1-4 rounds to kill a Space Marine with bolter rounds.
We can see similar results earlier in the movie:
Maybe at longer ranges, if the bullet has lost energy, but these Black Legion and Ultramarines were putting holes in each other pretty easily and consistently.
Even if we argue that it takes 2-3 bullets, we're talking about 32-48 kj of energy. That would still not stand up to a phaser on setting 8, which is twice as powerful. To get that, you'd need to argue that these guys could each tank 9-10 bullets in roughly the same area, which is clearly not what we saw in either of those clips.
But you see, Animation is easier to decide if a writer is being flowery with thier language or notThe Ultramarines Movie.
You are using
The Ultramarines Movie.
I don’t even know what to say. Games Workshop itself, who has made tremendously poor decisions down the years, tries to forget that one.
The Astartes animation, although fan made, is considered vastly more accurate than that for the most part.
I mean tbh fine they're technically that accurate, but how fast can they target and fire at that range would be my follow up question.Fifteen years ago some pathetic nerd on SB.com counted every phaser shot on The Next Generation and determined they are more accurate than the New York Police Department. Also in a ToS episode Arena according to dialogue the engagement range with Hand Phasers was 1500 meters. Plus in Star Trek they have digital targeting optics on their weapons which means they can be fired off axis.
Are these animations even canon?But you see Monk, that is from the books. Animations show differently
The Ultramarines Movie.
You are using
The Ultramarines Movie.
I don’t even know what to say. Games Workshop itself, who has made tremendously poor decisions down the years, tries to forget that one.
The Astartes animation, although fan made, is considered vastly more accurate than that for the most part.
Are these animations even canon?
I thought the Ultramarines movie was fan material that got sued into oblivion?
I mean tbh fine they're technically that accurate, but how fast can they target and fire at that range would be my follow up question.
There's also the psychology issue of seeing your buddy blow up next to them, I don't think Startrek forces are that well composed to shrug off that visual brutality mid combat.
We have bolters hitting 2.5km out. It not further
But when I bring out a dozen or so book qout3s you dismiss then as flowery
His legs simply aren't long enough for that.
Eh, it's the same again with UNSC troopers vs Starfleet Troopers. As much as the rocks would shit, the sky would fall on their heads, Star Trek fans can't understand that techno toys don't win wars. If they did, WWII would have been won by the Germans using the Wunderwaffe.
To answer your question, the Space Marines win because they are an elite force, monk warriors designed as a fighting force to conquer entire star systems. Their entire organization, style of operations or, in short, the System, is superior to what Starfleet has. It is what makes the Marines win. This argument about equipment is pointless, because it, in a general sense, has little meaning.
Starfleet, as you can see, lacks something like that. Their ground troops are designed as glorified bodyguards. How are they supposed to stop a military formation that has been fighting a constant war for 10,000 years? A formation with a fanatical eprit de corps, trained in murderous training and constantly engaged in military operations.
What's more, this system was designed by a being far superior in knowledge, experience and skill to all Starfleet officers in their entire history. One has to be extremely blind or ignorant that most likely in Codex Astartes, the combat manual for the Space Marines, is the solution to what to do with such an opponent as Starfleet soldiers.
Well those are good feats, it shows they can engage at distances to keep the Spacemarines strength irrelevant. The issue at hand is who can lock onto the other first and launch their Alpha strike?Most of those fights were at 12-30 foot ranges, but that's TNG where most fights occur indoors. A few took place at further ranges. The longest range for a phaser type II was 1,500 meters. They couldn't do much in the way of targeting, since the TOS Type IIs only have a simple reflex sight and I don't think there was any way to increase their magnification. DS9's Field of Fire has a Vulcan serial killer using a targeting scanner that allowed him to target anyone on the station, suggesting a range of at least a kilometer. As for firing, we know their phaser rifles have multi-target acquisition and gyro-stabilizers, so they're probably fairly accurate all things considered.
Yes I do know but even soldiers get affected by combat stress reaction.You know that the Federation had a war with the Dominion, right? Involving ground troops? Between phasers and artillery, some people most assuredly were blown to bits. You're not really asking for a tall order. People were getting blown apart consistently in war since the industrial age.
Power
Armour
Germany's fascination with techno-toys wasn't the only reason why they lost the war. Germany losing the war can be attributed to the fact that it was facing down a major continental power on the eastern flank, an awakened superpower to the west across the Atlantic, and a hostile United Kingdom to the northwest.Eh, it's the same again with UNSC troopers vs Starfleet Troopers. As much as the rocks would shit, the sky would fall on their heads, Star Trek fans can't understand that techno toys don't win wars. If they did, WWII would have been won by the Germans using the Wunderwaffe.
To answer your question, the Space Marines win because they are an elite force, monk warriors designed as a fighting force to conquer entire star systems. Their entire organization, style of operations or, in short, the System, is superior to what Starfleet has. It is what makes the Marines win. This argument about equipment is pointless, because it, in a general sense, has little meaning.
Starfleet, as you can see, lacks something like that. Their ground troops are designed as glorified bodyguards.
Well, for one thing, they've probably retained institutional knowledge from hundreds of different species. The Imperium's Space Marines on the other hand...well, constant warfare is not good for your institutions because it slowly grinds them down until they're a shadow of their former self. The opposite of what you are arguing for Starfleet is that they're soft. And while there is certainly an indication that they had grown soft, we saw how quickly Starfleet was able to handle a threat as large as the Dominion.How are they supposed to stop a military formation that has been fighting a constant war for 10,000 years? A formation with a fanatical eprit de corps, trained in murderous training and constantly engaged in military operations.
What's more, this system was designed by a being far superior in knowledge, experience and skill to all Starfleet officers in their entire history. One has to be extremely blind or ignorant that most likely in Codex Astartes, the combat manual for the Space Marines, is the solution to what to do with such an opponent as Starfleet soldiers.
Yup, Feds are military incompetents and their "wunderwaffe" efficiency functions purely on the basis of plot and randomness.
Personnel Training and Operations
All Starfleet and attached personnel receive initial basic instruction on the operation and use of a lower-power variant of the Type I phaser (limited to Setting 3). All Starfleet officers receive advanced training and are issued full-power Type 1 phasers as personal defensive arms. During Alert conditions aboard the ship and during Away Missions, the Security Division will oversee the distribution of Type II units. Training for the use of Type III phaser rifles is available on starbases only.
Continued proficiency training in defensive techniques is maintained at four-month intervals for shipboard personnel, and at one-month intervals for Away Team candidates. Each Security Division officer’s continuing phaser training progresses at varied rates, depending on individual specialties.
Meanwhile, in 40k you need to go through decades of grueling training and deadly combat just to qualify as a neophyte.
Well those are good feats, it shows they can engage at distances to keep the Spacemarines strength irrelevant. The issue at hand is who can lock onto the other first and launch their Alpha strike?
Because while they may have comparable combat range of the Spacemarines, it ends up who is shooting who first, If it's the Spacemarines they will end up with a solid advantage that will quickly go downhill for the Startrek forces as they have less firepower during the opening barrage.
Yes, but most soldiers don't just go to pieces because their buddy was killed. It's traumatic, but they fight on. Your own source even indicates as such:Yes I do know but even soldiers get affected by combat stress reaction.
Combat stress reaction - Wikipedia
When faced with the phenomenon of a minority of soldiers mentally breaking down, there was an expectation that the root of this problem lay in character of the individual soldier, not because of what they experienced on the front lines during the war. The large proportion of World War I veterans in the European population meant that the symptoms were common to the culture.
Think of it has morale, in real life if a Soldiers pal gets blown up right next to them they may still be able to continue to fight but they won't be fighting at optimum efficiency there would be at least a delay as they process their pal getting blown up and nigh instant killed.
Sure, that does happen and Space Marines would not be affected the same way; that is certainly an advantage. It can even be a decisive advantage, but if you're going into every fight assuming it will be, you are very much mistaken.Sure they'll probably start shooting back but there will be a delay, Spacemarine on the other hand have much higher morale so are less likely to be phased by the losses of their brothers and if they were the enhanced reflexes would allow them to process what happened faster and move on from it.
Like wise Spacemarines have the added benefit of better endurance, they could still fight pretty effectively even with serious injuries.
There is a chance a direct hit max yield blast to a Spacemarine could penetrate their armor but not do enough damage to the redundancy and back up systems in their biology.
Where as the Startrek force is dying 100/100 from a direct hit, so from my perspective it's.
Spacemarines have
-Reflexes (Higher chance to strike first)
-Endurance (Higher chance to survive an attack that breaks through the armor)
-Morale (Their fantasticism will making breaking their Morale almost impossible)
Star trek have
-Comparable Range (Can engage at distance to prevent the Spacemarines from taking advantage of their super strength and CQC)
-Comparable Accuracy (The technology should allow them to match the inherent accuracy of a Spacemarine)
Annd that's it. So I see best case scenario the Star Trek forces open fire possibly killing a few Spacemarines and then getting immediately gun downed by faster return fire and then pressured with suppressive fire while the Marines use their superior mobility (Strong legs) to flank and cut them down.