Crom's Black Blade
Well-known member
Hey Zachowon, feel free to post more quotes.
Now I am curious how I could fail to mention something that was included in the quote I posted.
Starfleet Ground Troops vs 40k Space Marines
- Thread starter The Original Sixth
- Start date
Now I am curious how I could fail to mention something that was included in the quote I posted.
I didn't see the full quote.
I postd a longer one of the scene in another thread.
It explains how they missed due to the speed pf the marine above all else ans that it was and inquisitor
Crom's Black Blade
Well-known member
Which thread was that?
Spartan bs Astartes.
Crom's Black Blade
Well-known member
The lack of such descriptions would suggest it didn't occur. Now if you wish to make the claim that, in addition to what the passage described, the chainsword was further affected that would be a positive claim requiring proof.
The issue is not just fragments but both the lack of any described blast effects and, whether shaped or not, a good portion of that blast should be splashing back into that compromised helmet. Further I'm not a hundred percent certain this is a shaped charge or an explosive charge at all. It's described as a shotgun in the passage and we only are told of the "detonating shell fragments" which could be because it shattered on the sword as much as anything. Or, keeping with the shotgun idea, the shell is designed to explode/fragment which would require a more omni-directional explosion.
In the larger portion provided by Zachowan the killing blow is described as " I fired my last round, taking him in the faceplate, snapping his head to the side as the Engager round bored through his skull and blasted a red spray out the back of his helm. Laughter gargled from the half of his head that remained." Which makes it sound that if the Engager round exploded it only did so after it had pierced through the Marine's head.
The visor was described as destroyed through. Not damaged, not burned a hole through. Just destroyed. Barring further evidence there's no reason to assume it's not as described.
Not sure that has any bearing on how rare laser eye pieces are.
Which, as when we discussed warp travel, is game mechanics that don't even gel with RT's fluff let alone the wider universe. Not that I disagree that eye lasers are rare, merely your assertion that anyone who posses one must therefore be kitted and augmented like some cyberpunk reject.
And what makes you say that.
The fact they weren't mentioned when they'd be relevant and actively used doesn't make much sense either from an in-universe perspective or and out of universe one. The writer clearly wants to show how out-classed the two are. There is simply no reasonable reason to assume, even if he is an Inquisitor like Zachowan claims, unstated, unimplied reflexes/senses enhancements. Now if you can dig up a quote saying he's enhanced in that manner I'll happily revaluate the scene.
Further only one appears to have any augmentation. An arm and an eye. So nothing suggests "they" have access to some rare gear. In fact other than the eye their gear is kind of basic. They have carapace armor but apparently no bolters, no plasma weapons, no power armor. Just "shotguns".
Took a look. If anything I'd say it more supports my position considering the two managed to kill the Marine. That despite being able to move fast enough that it was just a blur, able to dodge even a laser beam, it also was so slow that they had ample time to keep grabbing and shooting their guns.
they had digital fucking weapons.
They are definitely not your average Joe and had to be Inquisitors add in the fact the guy had armor that can take a beating from a space Marine.
They had the capability to kill it yes, because it didn't outright kill them.
Val the Moofia Boss
Well-known member
Even if the Starfleet officers get lucky and manage to get a first shot on the Space Marines, I'm not sure if the phasers can melt through their armor quickly enough. Almost certainly lose in first case scenario.
Scenario 2: If the Space Marines cannot shoot through the force fields, then that might just give Starfleet enough time to burn through their armor, though I would not expect the Space Marines to just stand there once they realize that shooting isn't working. They'd probably attempt a charge and personal shields in Star Trek usually do not protect against melee attacks. Starfleet is facing off against supermen here so unless those phasers melt through armor very quickly, Starfleet will probably die.
Overall I don't think Starfleet can win against space marines unless they have access to transporters and replicators.
Scenario 2: If the Space Marines cannot shoot through the force fields, then that might just give Starfleet enough time to burn through their armor, though I would not expect the Space Marines to just stand there once they realize that shooting isn't working. They'd probably attempt a charge and personal shields in Star Trek usually do not protect against melee attacks. Starfleet is facing off against supermen here so unless those phasers melt through armor very quickly, Starfleet will probably die.
Overall I don't think Starfleet can win against space marines unless they have access to transporters and replicators.
At maximum setting? They'd blast straight through. Bolters are undoubtedly powerful weapons, but they're about 14-18 KJ KE weapons and they generally pass through Space Marine power armor well enough. Phasers at maximum power tend to be in the single to multi-megajoule range. If it didn't disintegrate them, their torsos would be blown apart.
Return to Grace
The Mind's Eye
The former is Kira comparing the Cardassian and the Federation rifles. According to her, the UFP rifle is only a little less powerful. We also have the Mind's Eye, where LaForge and Data are testing a fake phaser rifle. The output doesn't surprise them, just the efficiency. It might suggest that the UFP phaser is at around 4.065 megawatt output, compared to a possibly more efficient Cardassian phase-disruptor, which is closer technologically to what the Romulans use.
It'd be approximately half as powerful as this:
Except, you know, it'd be directly deposited into the Space Marine's breastplate.
They can absolutely shoot through the forcefields. I haven't seen any indication that anything short of a larger camp shield would stop bolter rounds.
You are incorrect. Borg personal shields do not protect against physical attacks because they're basically stopping particle weapons. You can stop a particle weapon with an electromagnetic shield (real science, yay!), but it won't stop someone from slugging you or putting a bullet through you (well, maybe if it's a round launched by a railgun).
I disagree, I think Starfleet is perfectly capable of winning here. It's not assured that they will win, of course. And I gave them the best chance at winning because both sides are most likely to engage at range, which is most advantageous for Starfleet*. Both sides are basically glass cannons. Nothing Starfleet has will really stop a bolter round, but phasers set to the maximum will turn Space Marines into chunky salsa with one hit.
*Even though both sides are glass cannons in this scenario, the fact remains that most UFP soldiers are human. That means they aren't going to want to fire a phaser at full power at close range if they can avoid it. Close-range combat would also be very advantageous to the Space Marines, as it would allow them to put their greater melee experience to good use. Urban combat would most probably favor them, unless Starfleet had transporters and artillery to even the odds.
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>chainsword got hit, got dropped, and forgotten about
>hence chainsword didn't get damaged
That logic simply doesn't work, it is a classic situation of "we can't know" and i have no reason to accept your preferred random assumption as the default.
Hahaha no. That's not how shaped charges work. People survive armored vehicles being hit with far larger shaped charges without your wild splashback effects.
If it was shattering, it would be shattering, not detonating.
Why would anyone use a fragmentation shell in a shotgun meant to kill Astartes of all things? What next, fragmentation anti tank shells?
Or the plasma jet of a shaped charge did.
If someone shot a 105mm APFSDS shell through the length of your car, it would be considered destroyed. But it still would not be completely evaporated, just have a hole through it.
Barring further evidence, i will not accept your assumption.
How so? In 40k hero characters regularly get to use far nicer stuff than their mundane equivalents.
Must? No. Is it likely, in context of who they are and what they do? Absolutely.
Because all the other gear they have is something the average guardsman or commissar would be jealous of.
If they were mentioned few chapters of the book before, then it would be fucking annoying if they were mentioned every time they had some effect.
They didn't die. That's how not-so-outclassed they are.
And according to what i dug out, no, they are not Inquisition, however...
This is what you get for arguing about a book you don't know about. I didn't read it either, but i dug out some info. Apparently the people in question are a type of Mentor's elite chapter serfs, trained, equipped and augmented to accompany them on expeditions as agents of sort and support them in combat.
Yeah, totally average vanilla humans like in a boring normal Guard regiment.
"Just". Note that even Astartes Scouts and Deathwatch use shotguns... of a kind. Same with Arbites Judges, who also could definitely access some nice weapons. Not all shotguns are made equal in 40k.
And look what i found:
Shotgun - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum
This ain't your typical shotgun a random guardsman or ganger may be carrying.
On second thought it doesn't sound like it's using shaped charge, but something more like APHE or whatever bolters use.
Apparently "they" in this case means the higher end of human combat talents and equipement in 40k, as i guessed earlier, on similar level to assassins and inquisitorial agents, not vanilla humans, so it makes sense.
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Crom's Black Blade
Well-known member
They had shotguns. One individual had a laser eye. Is that what you mean by "digital weapon"?
Further, looking at the other quote from the book you provided these two appear to be Helots which the 40k wiki identifies as a form of chapter serf, not an Inquisitor rank.
Anuradha Daaz - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum
I'm afraid you have it backwards. You are the one demanding I accept your random assumptions without evidence. We are told what happened, we have no evidence anything further happened. Ergo that is all that happened until new evidence comes to light.
And do they survive with their face next to the point of impact when said round fails to penertrate?
Your assuming "detonating" is being used literal as opposed to descriptive through which doesn't track with 40k, prone to very flowery language, or someone personal recollection as this piece appears to be written in. Much like the word "vaporize" humans tend to be very loose and evocative with our word choices.
As for why, likely the same reason you'd use a shotgun against a human. Wider area of effect more likely to hit something with the pellets/shrapnel. Now it does kind of lean towards Marine armor being pretty easy to pierce.
Except that isn't described. All we're told is the "Engager round" piercing the marine's skull. Just like we weren't told of any plasma when the chainsword was hit even through that should have been as eye catching as the sparkles. So all we're left with is the idea that a solitary round is still intact well after it's pierced through the Marine's helmet
Once again you are making the assumption, that there's just a small hole, not me.
Because it's an out of universe argument that really has no bearing on analyzing a fairly straight forward scene.
Which is basically six in one, half a dozen in the other. You are making an unsupported claim based upon and demanding I disprove it based upon your own further unproven assumptions regarding an eye laser.
This was in reply to the guy's bionic arm, yes? Said arm you were saying had to be high end and thus evidence of being extremely elite. It feels like your argument is circular.
We're not talking about "every time" they had an affect. We're talking about a time they failed to be effective. It would be like Flash from DC being speed blitzed and not mentioning his super speed.
Yes, they eventually killed the marine. Which kind of agrees with my original point. The marine is both fast enough to dodge weapons, even a light-speed based one because the narrator can't see it, yet is so slow they managed to get repeated attempts to kill it at point blank ranges.
Not at all. I don't mind being shown I'm wrong if that's indeed the case. I asked for additional evidence after all. My objection was your attempt to dismiss the quote sans evidence based on very specious reasoning. I would point out Reddit is kind of bad for sloppy research so one shouldn't put 100% faith in what they claimed until you see the source yourself.
Yes, in relation to the aforementioned plasma and bolters. Just seemed kind of basic for Inquisitors/assassins/ super elite as you speculated. Personally I think it fits better with them being Serfs. Their being equipped and trained just enough to be dangerous but aren't being handed every goodie.
They appear to be Chapter Serfs trained and equipped to fight alongside their Marines, yes. I don't agree it opens the door the level of speculation you seem too demanding I disprove things not written in the text.
Especially when Zachowan could have easily have posted this line and saved us both some trouble.
From Spear of the Emperor.
So they are capable of greater reflexes/speed than unaugmented humans. I will concede you were right on that score.
If you don't know what digital weapons mean in 40k context, then you should *really* stop trying to pretend that you know anything about 40k lore.
What part of "we can't know" do you struggle to understand?
We have no information what happened, ergo your assumption is as good as mine, we can only speculate. Our lack of evidence is as much evidence for your claim as it is for mine.
Sometimes they do. Without armor. While stuck in the cramped confines of an armored vehicle.
I have no reason to not laugh out your very convenient but equally questionable assumptions.
"It would be stupid to use a shotgun against a heavily armored target, so you know what, they Astartes armor must be weak to begin with!".
Do you even read this stuff you write?
If you fully read the wiki page about 40k shotguns, or even had some idea about the subject matter, or played 40k games, you would know better than this, and you would understand how and why might someone want to use a shotgun against fairly armored targets.
No, *we* aren't, you are, through miracle of poor reading comprehension.
Where did you get the conclusion that the round overpenetrated?
If the round stuck inside, or exploded inside, or even was a shaped charge that bored through the skull with a directional explosion, that description would be equally fitting.
And again, what makes your assumption better than mine? Because it's yours? Come on...
Yet in light of other quotes it was shown to be a well reasoned guess.
As above.
If you want to argue that eye implanted digi-weapons are something even somewhat common in the Imperium, you are claiming something extraordinarily ridiculous, and using Yarrick of all people to claim otherwise is equally ridiculous.
It was implied that it took a kick from space marine in power armor to cause some pain to the user. That does sound pretty high end to me...
Except we aren't talking of a defining superpower for them here. This expectation is ridiculous to hold for 40k, half the descriptions of combat involving Astartes or AdMech would have to be repetitive mentions of their various implants by that standards, because the former have nearly two dozens of them as the standard, and some AdMech may even have more.
Aimdodging is a thing, and as we have established, the people who did get these attempts were highly augmented themselves.
It sure is more trustworthy than your wild assumptions...
>seemed
What it seems to me is that you are making rather uneducated guesses, and then insisting on them being better guesses than everyone else's. As i said, sometimes even Deathwatch uses shotguns, and they are some of the people with absolutely best access to nice shit in the whole Imperium.
You wanted to assume that the people in question are unaugmented merely based on lack of a conclusive statement that they are, which anyone with good knowledge of 40k lore would consider a dangerous assumption to make in that context - and in the end, it turned out to be the case.
Crom's Black Blade
Well-known member
The only "digital weapons" I know of in the 40k context are those made by the Jokero, stereotypically depicted as rings or other ornamental jewelry. With nothing of the sort appearing in either the portion I quoted or, that I can tell, in the larger portion quoted by @Zachowon . Hence my attempt to find out what precisely he is referring too. Whether he meant that or was referencing a different scene I hadn't seen yet. And yes I was a bit curt with him considering the brevity and relative non-informative nature of his argument.
Actually what I find most interesting is how you essentially argue both sides of the street depending on what benefits your argument at the moment. For the sword despite it never stating to be damaged, just shot from the Marine's hand, "we can't know" and must assume it was damaged until proven otherwise. Yet for the visor stated to be destroyed rather than "we can't know" your argument is the damage was trivial unless proven otherwise.
I don't see why. Whether we're talking pellets or exploded shrapnel you really are not going to get good armor penetration. So a shotgun, no matter how cool a weapon it is in pop culture, is a poor weapon for such work. Can you work around it? Certainly, shotguns can fire solid slugs or other more exotic projectiles but at that point they really aren't shotguns anymore just poorman rifles/ grenade launchers.
Is it possible the Engager is firing specially armor piercing round? Sure, it's possible. It is being described like that, at least in the passage being discussed, not particularly. Instead it sounds more like a glorified souped up shotgun which means if it can bust ceramite and adamantium then they can't be that tough.
The fact it's described as an Engager round going through the Marine's skull and the utter lack of a description of plasma/explosive charge/ect. It certainly doesn't preclude it exploding later, the back of the Marine's head was said to explode IIRC, but there's nothing in that passage that suggests it exploded before breaching the helmet.
Now could it be made to work if we have evidence they fire armor piercing grenades? Yes. But barring additional evidence there's no reason to assume that is so. Once again you're making a positive claim which requires evidence.
The fact the text says the visor is "destroyed". While I can't say the exact extent, and have not speculated, it can be reasonably assumed the damage was significant/notable.
I don't believe I claimed laser eye implants were remotely common and in fact believe I even stated I believe they are rare. I just disagreed with your stance they were so rare that only the absolute elite could get and who, therefore, had to be assumed had enhanced reflexes unless proven otherwise.
Further I believe you brought up the laser implant was something a commissioner couldn't get his hands on and I brought up an example of a Commissioner who did indeed posses one.
I'm not sure being kicked hard enough by a marine to cause pain is the same thing as requiring a marine's kick to cause pain.
Actually if a Marine encountered an alien faster/more agile I wouldn't think it would be that repetitive to bring it up especially if the entire scene is based around the alien being faster.
I suppose this is your mileage my vary but, no. I don't think they, as described, really fit as Inquisitors or Assassins. I think their kit better reflects them as Serfs. Expendable assets just given enough to be dangerous.
It was the reasonable assumption to make and I would do so again given the same data.
Congratulations for reading the wiki article. No congratulations for not reading more wiki articles.
Imperial bionics - Warhammer 40k - Lexicanum
So you admit that we can't know that one for sure either, unlike your earlier claim that the visor was totally destroyed?
Yes. Such exotic projectiles, when it comes to people with access to "nice things" in 40k, are absolutely an option, and for those who can have good stuff easily not even a rare one, so they essentially use shotguns as a sort of highly versatile launcher for all sorts of specialized rounds.
It clearly doesn't "sound" like firing buckshot or something like that. My first impression was a small HEAT shell, but it could be one of more advanced anti armor munitions 40k has.
I suggest rethinking whatever standard you use to determine what such things "sound" as.
Nor does it say that the round went out...
And so are you. What makes your positive claim better than mine? Other than mine is consistent with general 40k lore, while you consistently make claims and implications dramatically inconsistent with it, like Astartes armor being easy to pierce, which are extraordinary, and as such, would require extraordinary evidence.
And where do you have evidence that it would be so completely obliterated as to not stop little to no fragmentation from a shotgun shell designed to pierce armor rather than create fragmentation, if the user was even so unlucky to get hit by it in the visor?
Yes, they are *that* rare.
Likewise, i didn't say you *had* to assume they had enhanced reflexes, only that this is a sign of it being quite possible, and as such, your assumption that they are unaugmented humans is equally baseless. Which was right, because they turned out to clearly not be upon deeper investigation.
Who is one of most famous hero characters, both in and out of universe, automatically making your argument terribly inapplicable to the average commissar. It's like implying every human psyker can do the same things Malcador the Sigilite did.
The wording there implies that it did require a particularly major impact to cause.
Well guess the author disagreed with you writing advice. Tough luck.
No one cares about your fanfiction. Go back to wikis for descriptions what Helots are for and what they do. They definitely aren't considered expandable in universe, and they definitely are given equipment that in 40k is very much not meant for "expendable assets". For one Astartes techmarines absolutely do not personally craft equipment for "expendable assets", their work hours are an extremely valuable commodity that many important people in 40k would pay unreasonable prices for. Expendable assets who need to be just barely able to hurt Astartes could just get a second rate mass produced boltgun, or a hellgun, like typical stormtroopers, perhaps even a basic meltagun if they felt generous.
It was a reasonable assumption perhaps for someone with no knowledge of 40k, it was a clearly uneducated guess in context of 40k lore.
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Ah good, Agent23 is here.
Don't worry everyone, we all know about Agent23's brilliant military and tactical commentary. You all remember how quickly and easily he called the Russian conquest of Ukraine last year? About those brilliant feints and traps that the Russians cleverly set for the Ukrainians? How the Russians cunningly sent wave after wave of unarmed, poorly trained troops to their death to lure the Ukrainians into a false sense of security?
So glad he's here to tell us how incompetent Starfleet is.
Out of curiosity, have you ever substantiated any claim you have ever made?
That rock that Riker blew up in Hide and Q looked to be about a third of a cubic meter. Which would put the output of the Type I that he'd used at ~106 kilojoules. That same setting is enough to disintegrate humanoids. We see a similar effect in Arena, where a redshirt is vaporized by a disruptor shot, but those same shots create explosions when they hit the ground.
Seeing as Power Armor is typically penetrated by double-digit kilojoule bolter rounds, I very much doubt it's going to do well against a phaser.
Meaning what? Most combat situations either involve stun or the kill setting, which is setting 6 or 7. Starfleet would just need to increase the beam intensity on their phasers.
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Not mention teleportation.ST have precise teleports - which mean,that they could teleport dirt into enemies.
Why they send redshirts instead? well,it was movie,not reality.
In RL,after loosing few times,they would just deleport shit into Astartes heads.And recover their nice armours for themselves.
P.S Happy Easter !
Why they send redshirts instead? well,it was movie,not reality.
In RL,after loosing few times,they would just deleport shit into Astartes heads.And recover their nice armours for themselves.
P.S Happy Easter !
Lord Sovereign
The resident Britbong
No amount of Trekkie fan wank will ever enable an away team of red shirts to take on the Adeptus Astartes.
The away team gets surrounded, surprised, and riddled with bolter fire before they can do much at all. Perhaps a Battle Brother's pauldron gets singed.
That's if these guys aren't Raven Guard. In which case, the red shirts are dead before they can blink.
The away team gets surrounded, surprised, and riddled with bolter fire before they can do much at all. Perhaps a Battle Brother's pauldron gets singed.
That's if these guys aren't Raven Guard. In which case, the red shirts are dead before they can blink.
IoM WH40 teleports are not precise enough to teleport something inside people.ST are capable of doing so.
But,if both sides could not teleport,Astartes win - they have kind of targeting system in their armours,better time of reaction,so they would fire first.
So,it do not matter if ST dudes weapons are good or not - they would not have time to use it.
Only reasons why cultists/IG could use lasguns on Astartes is their numbers - when Astartes start firing,there are still masses of enemies to schoot back.
And Starfleet do not have numbers to bring.
P.S Happy Easter !