Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Lord Sovereign]

But yes it would have been nice if the CIS was actually shown on screen to be morally grey rather then just ‘the bad guys’. So much for the ‘there are heroes on both sides’ bit from the opening crawl of Revenge of the Sith.

There should have been far more non-droid combatants in the Confederate Military, fighting and dying for what they see as the cause of freedom.

Also have some of these very brave bastards carry on the fight under the Starbird banner of the Alliance. For them the Clone War never ended.

 

[Skallagrim]

There should have been far more non-droid combatants in the Confederate Military, fighting and dying for what they see as the cause of freedom.

Also have some of these very brave bastards carry on the fight under the Starbird banner of the Alliance. For them the Clone War never ended.

 

[Zyobot]

Ahem!

I believe this is what y'all are after:

 

[Morphic Tide]

Yes but at the same time no. The clashes with canon in TCW started long, looooong before the Disney buy out. Look at how characters are treated even in the early seasons.

TCW is "ring three", what it overwrote was "ring four". It is the "higher canon compilation" for the period in question, picking over the extended universe material and rolling what the writers felt like into a "definitive edition" replacing the clusterfuck of accretion.

It's probably because Grievous appeared like a complete chump in Episode III...never mind that was only because Windu had damaged his life-support, so he couldn't fight like he normally could.

Actually Lucas had originally intended that sniveling asthmatic portrayal, but the 2003 crew were given a limited description and came up with the Jedi-blender that informed the later Extended Universe works before re-railing onto the track they only later found out about with the Windu fight. Remember, it started as shorts to maintain hype between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith.

Not sure if I would have made the Clones the bad guys or not. I mean, it’s called the Clone Wars but the Clones were on the side that won and then more or less discarded them. Would have made more sense to call it the ‘Droid Wars’.

The clones were the "new thing" defining the character of the war as a peculiarly uninvolved sort. The droids of the CIS were almost all pre-war or close derivatives thereof, being a fairly well-established operational paradigm, with known risks and countermeasures and counter-countermeasures, even if in ancient history.

In rewrite terms, "The Clone Wars" could be an interesting pin to stick in it, where the conflict plays out a touch more like the Punic Wars with noteworthy pauses in-between. Perhaps Episode One kicks off the First Clone War, with competing clone technologies seeing widespread use for the first time in the actions to wrangle the Trade Federation's overreach without setting off the political powder-keg with a normal recruitment drive.

Then that data is used to inform some of the last-leg operational training of the Kaminoan secret project that would be the "mainstay" in the rest of the period of conflict, with the Second Clone War having a debatable start before the Battle of Geonosis unveiled this force. Then the Jedi holding the tab is significantly less weird because they can uncover the expense and continue paying to have a conscionable force for the very obvious inevitability of being brought into the mess.

A Third Clone War would fit as a consolidation crisis for the Galactic Empire, where the Kaminoans end up joining forces with CIS remnants over Palpatine's poor choice of initial crackdowns, being a massive mess because of the Emperor ending up burning literally every sabotage option he had thinking cutting the head off of corporations and loose alliances was going to do anything and thus the new train has no breaks.

 

[DarthOne]

Actually Lucas had originally intended that sniveling asthmatic portrayal, but the 2003 crew were given a limited description and came up with the Jedi-blender that informed the later Extended Universe works before re-railing onto the track they only later found out about with the Windu fight. Remember, it started as shorts to maintain hype between Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith.

That’s not what happened. Lucas didn’t intend him to be like that from the start- he changed his mind after the fact.

TCW is "ring three", what it overwrote was "ring four". It is the "higher canon compilation" for the period in question, picking over the extended universe material and rolling what the writers felt like into a "definitive edition" replacing the clusterfuck of accretion.

Only because it made a complete mess of things that they had to come up with that level of canon whole-cloth to justify their nonsense. Pre-TCW lore was HARDLY a ‘clusterfuck’. It was TCW that made a mess of things; do not give me their lies.

.

In rewrite terms, "The Clone Wars" could be an interesting pin to stick in it, where the conflict plays out a touch more like the Punic Wars with noteworthy pauses in-between. Perhaps Episode One kicks off the First Clone War, with competing clone technologies seeing widespread use for the first time in the actions to wrangle the Trade Federation's overreach without setting off the political powder-keg with a normal recruitment drive.

Then that data is used to inform some of the last-leg operational training of the Kaminoan secret project that would be the "mainstay" in the rest of the period of conflict, with the Second Clone War having a debatable start before the Battle of Geonosis unveiled this force. Then the Jedi holding the tab is significantly less weird because they can uncover the expense and continue paying to have a conscionable force for the very obvious inevitability of being brought into the mess.

A Third Clone War would fit as a consolidation crisis for the Galactic Empire, where the Kaminoans end up joining forces with CIS remnants over Palpatine's poor choice of initial crackdowns, being a massive mess because of the Emperor ending up burning literally every sabotage option he had thinking cutting the head off of corporations and loose alliances was going to do anything and thus the new train has no breaks.

It’s not a bad idea but it wouldn’t work well in a three movie series. It would work much better for a TV show, though you’d have to do massive time skips or come up with some sort of plot for in between the wars to keep people interested.

 

[DarthOne]

Blame Sidious for that -- IIRC in the EU and Disney, he purposefully caused the CIS to be limited because one side winning that early? It'd spell doom for the Sith's plans.

That's the other problem....the CIS was nerfed hard. I can say it with a strait face because you can run the numbers and see it for yourself.

Let's say the CIS was loosing a dozen B-1s per clone they killed. That is a net win for the CIS. Large scale industrial warfare against someone that can job lot an army? Yeah attrition tactics are not going to work.

Heaven help the Republic if the loss rate was only 5 to one.

To be fair, in Legends the Clone weren't the only force fighting. If I remember correctly, they were the elite Soldiers of the Republic, the guys who got sent in where the battles were toughest and so on.

Which was something the EU writers came up with once the realized that the Clone Army, even given a generous interpretation of what a 'unit' was, was far, far to small to fight a galaxy- spanning war.

 

[Typhonis]

A droid factory can be set up on any metal rich world./ Including places organics need special equipment to survive. Planets orbiting a brown dwarf. Exoplanets between systems. That sort of thing.

 

[Husky_Khan]

A droid factory can be set up on any metal rich world./ Including places organics need special equipment to survive. Planets orbiting a brown dwarf. Exoplanets between systems. That sort of thing.

Wasn't there some Star Wars Novelist who got butthurt about fan criticism of the low numbers of Clonetroopers and Droids in the Star Wars verse exhibiting in her Star Wars Novels, and specifically some fan said that Droids could be made in their millions or whatever using metals you could find on a single uninhabited moon and so in a subsequent novel she actually wrote that argument in her novel and then strawmanned it away by saying it'd be impossible for anyone to know?

If I am recalling that correctly... then no Typhonis. You are wrong. And retarded. And not a fan of Star Wars.

 

[Morphic Tide]

Pre-TCW lore was HARDLY a ‘clusterfuck’

Actually read the numerous contradictory character interpretations and sheer depth of left-field "Plot Of The Day" storytelling. The pieces may technically be able to be fitted together, but it is quite difficult to justify all that shit happening to the same handful of people as actually the same people.

It’s not a bad idea but it wouldn’t work well in a three movie series.

Modify the ending sequence of Phantom Menace to indicate the Trade Federation aren't walking off the Invasion of Naboo while foreshadowing with "we won't be needing volunteers to fight", have the Naboo plot in Attack of the Clones be the audit follow-up to confirm what the Order is paying for before opening back up the money-hose, and make the setup of the third foreshadow the Rebel Alliance. It is mostly recontextualizing the canonical "Clone Wars" as the pivitol middle of their name, after the first sorted out the basics of rearmament and before the big showpiece field battles died off in favor of insurgent activity.

though you’d have to do massive time skips or come up with some sort of plot for in between the wars to keep people interested.

The First Clone War is backfill for the I to II timeskip of Anakin growing up, and the Third is a big fat "EU CIS-to-Rebel-Alliance pipeline interqual" sign, just as almost all of the Clones Wars was offscreen between II and III. In other words, they're literally designed to be the material time-skipped as a plot to hold interest between movies.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

In fairness to him I think that's how he rationalised it. In truth, anything in the vicinity was dead meat to a rampaging force user in the grip of grief and rage. Darth Vader came to adolescence in Order 66; he was born the day Shmi Skywalker died.

Hayden actually did quite well in acting that scene because he does manage to emote guilt, if not horror, mixed in with the rage. Padme saw that and chose to comfort him.

I don't think anyone, even the Jedi, would have blamed Anakin for fighting his way into the camp to rescue his mother and then fighting his way out, slaying anyone who so much as stood along his path with a gaffi stick. But that's not what he did -- he didn't kill any Tuskens until after his mother died, and he wasn't carrying her body or exiting the area; he was out there with the express intent of wiping out the entire tribe as an act of psychotic revenge. If there were any other Tusken groups even remotely in the area, I think he would have hunted them down and killed them too even knowing they had nothing to do with it.

This is exactly why I judge the *hell* out of fix-it fanfiction that pretty much memory holes the Tusken massacre and treats preventing Order 66 as the pivotal moment.

That said, my view is a little different from yours: I think Anakin Skywalker becomes a willfully Fallen Jedi at this point, which sets him up to become a "proper" Sith Lord as soon as Palpatine invites him. It's choosing to unrepentantly conceal and justify this moment to himself throughout the subsequent years that makes him prime for recruitment as a "true" Sith and not just a Fallen Jedi.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

The problem is that there's so much TCW did or introduced that directly or indirectly conflicts with Classic Legends Clone Wars lore that trying to square a circle like you say results in either nonsense or so much work for so little it defeats the point.

I am saying we should do the opposite and revert Filoni's squaring of circles. Rather than forcing the EU to fit TCW, you ignore the bits that obviously conflict, and then give the Old EU priority everywhere else. Do minimal retcons, using them to smooth over the transition and to save bits that people actually like. I am pretty sure there are varying degrees of opinion about TCW, and I'd say I am reverse-Filoni on it. I want to raid it for ideas and content like Filoni raided other authors in the EU.

I even have a proposal for integrating Ashoka into the EU proper without letting TCW run roughshod over the EU. Make her a friend of Anakin's (who is still a Padawan at this point, having not yet been knighted) and have Obi-wan and Anakin babysit her when her actual master is out. And, since Filoni gave us the answer as to who her master should actually be...

And we could even steal some events and make them in-universe fiction or simply dreams. Such as having Grevious have a terrible nightmare about being humiliated by Gungans. I mean that would be a terrifying dream for him, wouldn't it?

I don't think anyone, even the Jedi, would have blamed Anakin for fighting his way into the camp to rescue his mother and then fighting his way out, slaying anyone who so much as stood along his path with a gaffi stick. But that's not what he did -- he didn't kill any Tuskens until after his mother died, and he wasn't carrying her body or exiting the area; he was out there with the express intent of wiping out the entire tribe as an act of psychotic revenge. If there were any other Tusken groups even remotely in the area, I think he would have hunted them down and killed them too even knowing they had nothing to do with it.

This is exactly why I judge the *hell* out of fix-it fanfiction that pretty much memory holes the Tusken massacre and treats preventing Order 66 as the pivotal moment.

That said, my view is a little different from yours: I think Anakin Skywalker becomes a willfully Fallen Jedi at this point, which sets him up to become a "proper" Sith Lord as soon as Palpatine invites him. It's choosing to unrepentantly conceal and justify this moment to himself throughout the subsequent years that makes him prime for recruitment as a "true" Sith and not just a Fallen Jedi.

You do have a good point, Anakin has more issues than Scientific American has.

 

[Jormungandr]

Thing is, the Jedi Council were in a catch 22 with Anakin.

He was too old and he was too emotionally attached. They weren't wrong.

However, he was a powerful Force-user, Chosen One or not (spoiler: He was, but not in the way they wanted), and they knew that if they just let him go, he'd be snapped up by unsavoury elements in a heartbeat (such as the then hypothesized Sith returning).

Plus, one of their best, QGJ, was willing to say "fuck you" to them and train him of his own accord.

They were fucked from the get-go.

 

[Typhonis]

You want to change the prequel? Well, do a little modification then. Naboo is a core world of the Republic. Sidious gives the TF the go ahead as usual because he will deadlock the senate.

He wants this. He needs this. The blockade of Naboo is a crisis point he wants. Several core world allies are up in arms about this and then do the rational thing, to them. They militarize. They violate the Russan reformation in a state of panic over what has just happened. Naboo's allies, Alderaan and Kuat mobilize their own forces to help Naboo.

The rim sees what is going on and panics as well. The Trade Federation throws Gunray under the bus but Sheeve manages to save him and let him keep his job. However, the damage is done. The galaxy begins to rearm to face this new threat. This includes several planets going to Kamino to clone armies of soldiers because they feel they lack the time to recruit an army of their own.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Thing is, the Jedi Council were in a catch 22 with Anakin.

He was too old and he was too emotionally attached. They weren't wrong.

However, he was a powerful Force-user, Chosen One or not (spoiler: He was, but not in the way they wanted), and they knew that if they just let him go, he'd be snapped up by unsavoury elements in a heartbeat (such as the then hypothesized Sith returning).

Plus, one of their best, QGJ, was willing to say "fuck you" to them and train him of his own accord.

They were fucked from the get-go.

My take on it is that Qui-Gon thoughtlessly set Anakin up to fail from the start. If you take all the dialogue from TPM "as is":

1. Qui-Gon straight up promises Anakin that he's *going* to be a Jedi, no qualifiers and no mention of any issues. Granted, Anakin is a little kid, but it's absolutely clear that he's very intelligent, he's had to grow up terribly fast because of slavery, and he is absolutely *not* the sort of sheltered kid who "needs" to have reality sugar-coated.

2. When they get to Coruscant, Anakin suddenly finds out that no, he *doesn't* get to be a Jedi as promised, he's going to be judged by a Council of Masters -- a word that has absolutely huge implications to a slave. So no shit Anakin is scared when he appears before the Council-- he's had the rug yanked out from under him in a very cruel way, and he most likely thinks that he's going to be sent back to slavery since Qui-Gon didn't bother explaining otherwise.

3. Qui-Gon did a shitty job of actually presenting Anakin to the Council, as he goes all starry-eyed over the dubious Chosen One prophecy and makes absolutely no attempt to highlight Anakin's positive characteristics. Like pointing out this desperately poor little kid literally put his life and his only meaningful possession on the line to help the Jedi complete their mission even though they offered him nothing in exchange? Qui-Gon chooses to double down on his apparently trademark antagonizing the Council by declaring that he's going to do whatever the fuck he sees fit without condescending to explain to anyone else, even though bringing up Anakin's positive traits would directly address the Council's legitimate concerns.

3a. For that matter, the Council's concerns were clearly amplified by the fact that Qui-Gon just brought up the whole Sith encounter thing. It would have been much more sensible for him to secure Anakin's future *before* bringing up the bad news?


4. Given that Anakin at age 9 was well within the Initiate age range, there was also literally no reason for Qui-Gon to implicitly dump Obi-Wan on the spot, and that dovetails in a *very* ugly way with the history established by the Jedi Apprentice books, in which Qui-Gon has in fact on multiple occasions abandoned Obi-Wan.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

He was too old and he was too emotionally attached. They weren't wrong.

He was only "too old" and "too emotionally attached" by their then-current policies and procedures, which actually went against most of the entire history of the Jedi Order.

 

[Typhonis]

Also for the next few years, until Revenge of the Sith, he had a Sith Master influincing him. Hell as a few fics have pointed out, could Palpatine have influenced Anakin, subtly, during that time and used the Force on him?

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Also for the next few years, until Revenge of the Sith, he had a Sith Master influincing him. Hell as a few fics have pointed out, could Palpatine have influenced Anakin, subtly, during that time and used the Force on him?

Palps was certainly grooming him to Fall as much as possible, yes. In the early days Palps would most likely focus on taking gleeful advantage every possible misunderstanding to encourage Anakin to trust and confide in him while seeing the Jedi rules in the most negative light and also *not* actually mentioning things to Obi-Wan.

Anakin seems to have had an underlying belief that Obi-Wan was an obsessively perfect rule-following Jedi who *would* sell him out to the Council if he found out about *anything* Anakin did "wrong". A more objective view of the canon events and history clearly shows that Obi-Wan actually constantly struggled with the Code and put up a 'perfect' front because he was always fundamentally insecure thanks to Qui-Gon's abuse and repeated betrayals.

(Also, Obi-Wan clearly *at least* strongly suspected Anakin's relationship with Padme, because Anakin was like, comically terrible about trying to hide it. Realistically, literally everyone around Anakin knew about it and were probably taking bets on when he'd finally admit it. So Anakin's handling of that really only makes sense as Palps getting inside his head, so to speak.)

 

[Zyobot]

Never thought I'd watch that, yet here we are.

 

[Jormungandr]

Never thought I'd watch that, yet here we are.

Actually her or an AI?

 

[Zyobot]

Actually her or an AI?

AI, the quality of which took me by surprise.

Definitely replicates her voice well, though I question some of the inflections and intonations when delivering certain lines.