Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I regret that I have but one "like" to give this post. This captures so much correct about Star Wars and why I find the Jedi and Force aspects so important to it too. It also explains why there is no such thing as gray Jedi you cannot be both good and evil there is no balancing good and evil. And this is strongly reflected in the Original Trilogy... "Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny" as Yoda said, because once you begin to compromise with Evil, it invariably becomes easier and easier to compromise with it just a bit more... until you are simply evil.

This reading is also something I expect chafes a lot of modern people because they subconsciously recognize it and hate it, because the Force is not an abstract. It solidifies morality, makes it so there is actual Good and Evil in the setting and thus prevents the underlying framework that so many people accept: that good and evil are relative and social constructs.

I expect that one of the things Disney will be doing going forward is completely rejecting this old reading of the Force and relationship between the Jedi and Sith, and instead they will embrace the entire "Grey Jedi" thing where neither the Light or Dark sides are Good and Evil, but instead it's all about personal balance and personal choice, there will be no objective Good and Evil, but rather it will be about acceptance and inclusion.

To be fair both Starkiller, Kyle Katarn, and even Luke to an extent in ROTJ took that approach...but in that case it was less about the force powers themselves and the actions people committed. They used powers like lighting and force choke on occasion but when push came to shove and they were presented with the choice of killing a defenseless person they *Gasp* said no.

As much as we roll our eyes about the mustache-twirling puppy-kicking villain Sometimes the light side choice and the dark side choice IS as simple as "Kick the Puppy" or "Don't Kick the Puppy". and the fact that so many jedi within the Prequal Era order had to do mental and philosophical gymnastics just to convince themselves not to kick the puppy is honestly more disturbing than anything, BUT I think that comes down to less issues with the Force itself and more of Lucas's kind of warped view of humans and human behavior. (Cough cough Anakin and Padme's relationship Cough Cough)


The problem instead is of Disney painting the Jedi Order as fallen and corrupted with a broken code they are doubling down on its code to paint the whole concept of the force and Jedi as flawed so they can then replace it with...whatever they are going to with Rey.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

To follow on from those enlightening posts as to the true nature of the Empire, I suppose there’s some amusing karma (at least in the EU) in the Empire not merely outliving Palpatine, but ultimately escaping him.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

To follow on from those enlightening posts as to the true nature of the Empire, I suppose there’s some amusing karma (at least in the EU) in the Empire not merely outliving Palpatine, but ultimately escaping him.

Biggest irony of all, it's perfectly in line with (Banite) Sith philosophy too. Sidious was overthrown as Galactic Emperor, meaning he was always unworthy of being Galactic Emperor. Basically the same reasoning Darth Zannah used to justify not helping Darth Bane with a bunch of assassins, if he'd died, then he wasn't worthy of being Dark Lord of the Sith.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Biggest irony of all, it's perfectly in line with (Banite) Sith philosophy too. Sidious was overthrown as Galactic Emperor, meaning he was always unworthy of being Galactic Emperor. Basically the same reasoning Darth Zannah used to justify not helping Darth Bane with a bunch of assassins, if he'd died, then he wasn't worthy of being Dark Lord of the Sith.

The Banites were…quite committed to their code, weren’t they? I’d almost call them the most batshit insane, evil, breed of Sith there has ever been, but you have to admire their accomplishments.

Then again, a thousand years of Banite scheming lead to a few decades of abject power and misery for the galaxy until it all suddenly imploded.

Meanwhile, the very ancient Sith, built a civilisation that muddled along quite nicely for thousands of years. More brutal than abjectly evil. Strangely enough, for a man turned and trained by a Banite, Darth Vader would have fit in to the ancient Sith Empires quite nicely. He’d have gotten along famously with Darth Malgus.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Biggest irony of all, it's perfectly in line with (Banite) Sith philosophy too. Sidious was overthrown as Galactic Emperor, meaning he was always unworthy of being Galactic Emperor. Basically the same reasoning Darth Zannah used to justify not helping Darth Bane with a bunch of assassins, if he'd died, then he wasn't worthy of being Dark Lord of the Sith.

Ironically enough I've always kind of mulled over this fanfiction idea where Zannah gets a vision of the future realizes how self-defeating both the Jedi and the sith are and decides to just bugger off go into hiding jumping from clone body to body and eventually meets Anakin and Obi-Wan and she and Anakin become close friends.

(Plagius says in the books that even if he hadin't found Sidious himself, Palpatine was always destined to become a sith so Darth Sidious would have most likely always been a thing even if he founded his own Sith Order)

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

The Banites were…quite committed to their code, weren’t they? I’d almost call them the most batshit insane, evil, breed of Sith there has ever been, but you have to admire their accomplishments.

Then again, a thousand years of Banite scheming lead to a few decades of abject power and misery for the galaxy until it all suddenly imploded.

Meanwhile, the very ancient Sith, built a civilisation that muddled along quite nicely for thousands of years. More brutal than abjectly evil. Strangely enough, for a man turned and trained by a Banite, Darth Vader would have fit in to the ancient Sith Empires quite nicely. He’d have gotten along famously with Darth Malgus.

Or Darth Nox, for that matter. A former slave, strong in the Force, who rose to power against all odds to sit on the Dark Council? Darth Vader would see a mirror of himself.

Back to the True Sith, they'd almost certainly denounce the Banites as both heretics and usurpers. Heretics, because they actually violate a fundamental tenet of the Sith: they are the masters, not the servants, of the Force. For all that Darth Bane condemned the Brotherhood of Darkness as aping the Jedi, he himself did just that by placing the Dark Side at the top of his ideology, when it should be below the Sith.

Usurpers, because the Banites have no real connection to ancient Sith civilization at all. Even (Darth) Revan of all people would have more legitimacy than they do, seeing as he was anointed a Dark Lord by the then-Sith Emperor, Darth Vitiate, who reconstituted the Sith Empire after the Great Hyperspace War and the subsequent Sith Holocaust. Likewise for Freedon Nadd and Exar Kun, with the former being the apprentice of the last Dark Lord of the pre-Sith Holocaust Sith Empire, Naga Sadow, while Exar Kun was anointed by the ghost of Marka Ragnos himself. The same ghost that denounced Darth Plagueis as a false Sith during his one visit to Korriban.

 

[Bassoe]

...they actually violate a fundamental tenet of the Sith: they are the masters, not the servants, of the Force.

For all Disney did, Darth Momin remains the only thing they objectively got right. Not even from an in-universe perspective, but his insights on artwork and being an artist and making your thoughts outlast yourself were genuinely meaningful. It reminds me of Yoda's brief brush with the dark side in Dark Rendezvous, showing that for all their claims of the dark side giving power for a sith to make their will manifest, it evidentially also gives them a lack of imagination given all they can think of to do with said power is inevitably megalomania.

"Power over beings, need I not. What else can it give me, this dark side of yours?"

"What game are you playing here, Master Yoda?"

Yoda smiled at the use of the term Master-curse him-and shrugged.

"No game. Wasteful, this war is. Even you agree. Sent you the candle, did I:you know there can be coming home for you. Know this, both of us do, and if come back to the Temple you wish, I will take you there."

"Very kind," Dooku said dryly. "Decent of you to give me an arm to lean on."

"Always catch you will I, when you fall," Yoda said. "I swore it."

Dooku flinched as if stung.

"But another way to solve the war there is. If you will not join with me,perhaps join with you I should. Tell me more," Yoda said testily. "If power over beings need I not, what else can your dark side do for me?"

"What do you want?" Dooku snapped. "Tell me what you want and I will show you how the dark side can help you achieve it. Do you want friends?The dark side can compel them for you. Lovers? The dark side understands passion in a way you never have. Do you want riches-endless life-deep wisdom...?"

"I want..." Yoda held up the flower in his hand and took another sniff.

"I want a rose."

"Be serious," Dooku said impatiently.

"Serious am I!" Yoda cried.

He bounced to his feet. Standing on the desktop, he was almost as tall as Dooku. He held the flower imperiously toward his former pupil.

"Another rose, make for me!"

"The dark side springs from the heart," Dooku said. "It isn't a handbook for cheap conjuror's tricks."

"But like this trick, do I!" Yoda said. "The trick that brings the flower from the ground. The trick that sets the sun on fire."

"The Force is not magic. I can't create a flower out of thin air. Nobody can-not you, not the Lord of the Sith."

Yoda blinked."My Force does. Binds every living thing, the Force I understand."

"Master, these are games of words. The Force is as it has always been.

The dark side is not a different energy. To use it is only to open yourself to new ways to command that energy, that have to do with the hearts of beings. Want something else. Want power."

"Power have I."

"Want wealth."

"Wealth I need not."

"Want to be safe," Dooku said in frustration. "Want to be free from fear!"

"I will never be safe," Yoda said. He turned away from Dooku, a shapeless bundle under a battered, acid-eaten cloak. "The universe is large and cold and very dark: that is the truth. What I love, taken from me will be, late or soon: and no power is there, dark or light, that can save me.

Murdered, Jai Maruk was when the looking after him I had; and Maks Leem; and all the many, many more Jedi I have lost. My family they were."

"So be angry about that!" Dooku said. "Hate! Rage! Despair! Allow yourself, just once, to stop playing at the game of Jedi Knight, and admit what you have always known: you are alone, and you are great, and when the world strikes you it is better to strike back than to turn your cheek. Feel,Yoda! I can feel the darkness rising in you. Here, in this place, be honest for once and feel the truth about yourself."

At this moment Yoda turned, and Dooku gasped. Whether it was the play of the holomonitors, beaming their views of bleak space and distant battles, or some other trick of the light, Yoda's face was deeply hidden in the shadows,mottled black and blue, so that for one terrible instant he looked exactly like Darth Sidious. Or rather, it was Yoda as he might have been, or could yet become: a Yoda gone rotten, a Yoda whose awesome powers had been utterly unleashed by his connection to the dark side. In a flash Dooku saw how foolish he had been, trying to urge the old Master to the dark side. If Yoda ever turned that way, Sidious himself would be annihilated. The universe had yet to comprehend the kind of evil that a Jedi Knight of nearly nine hundred years could wield. From the shadows, Yoda spoke.

"Disappointment like I not, apprentice," he snarled, in a wicked, wicked voice. "Give me my rose!"

An abstract like "ruling the galaxy" only holds value insofar as it gives the ruler power to accomplish whatever their actual goals were. Aside from Momin, the sith never seemed to get this.

I studied the lore of the Dark Side, visited its many great sites.

What I realized, eventually, was that I had been wasting my time creating my work for ordinary beings -- foolish idiots who would never understand.

The Force itself was the only true audience, the only one worth impressing, worth sanctifying.

If I could build something worthy of the grandeur of the Dark Side, I might become worthy myself.

I studied, I learned and then I embarked upon my greatest work.

The power of the Dark Side makes many things possible, but its will is not always clear.

When I began, I did not even know my medium, the raw stone from which I would sculpt a truth so profound it could not be ignored, or locked away.

So I asked the Force for guidance. It chose me to choose a city.

With resources inherited from Lady Shaa and the help of acolytes desperate to aid me in my work, I designed a great engine.

It was a weapon, of course, powerful enough to burn the city to ash.

But anyone can make a weapon. To be worthy of the force, my design had to be so much more... and it was.

Not every work goes as planned. Yes, I made a mark, of sorts. I killed many people...

...but the Dark Side asks for more than mere death in tribute.

It is hard to call that project anything but a failure.

That said, it puts me in mind of another principle that guides my artistic journey.

Never believe any of your creations are perfect.

Only believe the next one could be.

I... do not lie. I want only another chance... to create.

This time... it could be... perfect.

Suffer. How could I suffer more than I already do?

What purer agony for the artist than to be forgotten?

You have given me a wondrous opportunity, Lord Vader.

I will not throw that away.

This will be my masterpiece.

Do not forget, Vader, that I saw into you as you saw into me. You know my story--but I also know yours.

They called you the Chosen One, and you believed it.

You believe it still.

You think the Dark Side serves you.

Obeys your every childish whim.

But if the greatest power in the galaxy is actually your to control...

...why are you a stub of charred meat in a cape?

Even more, if you had that power...

...wouldn't you wife be alive?

The Dark Side does not serve us.

We serve the Dark Side.

If we glorify it though out acts and our work and our art, it gives us power. It gives us life. Even life eternal.

Empires have risen and fallen since my birth, great ages of the galaxy have passed... but here I stand.

But if we do not serve... If we fight the will of the Dark Side, try to control it...

...then... well...just look at you.

You have been poorly taught about what the Dark Side is and why we must serve. Your Master is either ignorant or hoarding knowledge.

It saddens me to see the Sith become such Jedi-obsessed weaklings.

It Saddens me, and I know it disgusts the Dark Side.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

To be fair both Starkiller, Kyle Katarn, and even Luke to an extent in ROTJ took that approach...but in that case it was less about the force powers themselves and the actions people committed. They used powers like lighting and force choke on occasion but when push came to shove and they were presented with the choice of killing a defenseless person they *Gasp* said no.

As much as we roll our eyes about the mustache-twirling puppy-kicking villain Sometimes the light side choice and the dark side choice IS as simple as "Kick the Puppy" or "Don't Kick the Puppy". and the fact that so many jedi within the Prequal Era order had to do mental and philosophical gymnastics just to convince themselves not to kick the puppy is honestly more disturbing than anything, BUT I think that comes down to less issues with the Force itself and more of Lucas's kind of warped view of humans and human behavior. (Cough cough Anakin and Padme's relationship Cough Cough)


The problem instead is of Disney painting the Jedi Order as fallen and corrupted with a broken code they are doubling down on its code to paint the whole concept of the force and Jedi as flawed so they can then replace it with...whatever they are going to with Rey.

called it.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

called it.

I am pretty sure other works in SW have already asked the question and answered it in different ways...and all of these different ways will and will always be far superior to whatever Disney could scrape up.

I'd laugh if Kreia of all people turns out to have more of a pro-Jedi outlook than this new movie.

 

[Typhonis]

I am pretty sure other works in SW have already asked the question and answered it in different ways...and all of these different ways will and will always be far superior to whatever Disney could scrape up.

I'd laugh if Kreia of all people turns out to have more of a pro-Jedi outlook than this new movie.

Hell, I thought it was the point of the Last Jedi.

Luke did some soul-searching and realized the Old Jedi order had major flaws and needed to be rebuilt from the ground up into something that worked better. Because if a Sith Lord can operate on the same planet a Jedi can and not be detected...there is something wrong with the Jedi.

 

[StormEagle]

I am pretty sure other works in SW have already asked the question and answered it in different ways...and all of these different ways will and will always be far superior to whatever Disney could scrape up.

I'd laugh if Kreia of all people turns out to have more of a pro-Jedi outlook than this new movie.

Wasn’t Kreia’s philosophy more anti-force in general than really being against any of the force using orders specifically?

So, technically speaking, you could probably make that argument. Especially given the fact that Kathleen can’t seem to leave anything from the previous trilogies standing, and Disney will likely character assassinate the Jedi order like they did Luke.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Wasn’t Kreia’s philosophy more anti-force in general than really being against any of the force using orders specifically?

So, technically speaking, you could probably make that argument. Especially given the fact that Kathleen can’t seem to leave anything from the previous trilogies standing, and Disney will likely character assassinate the Jedi order like they did Luke.

If she wasn't outright lying about it. Remember her actions torched the failing Jedi Order, torched the Sith, and helped the Jedi Order rebound and for a time reform. It would certainly be Avellonian to do that.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Wasn’t Kreia’s philosophy more anti-force in general than really being against any of the force using orders specifically?

If she wasn't outright lying about it. Remember her actions torched the failing Jedi Order, torched the Sith, and helped the Jedi Order rebound and for a time reform. It would certainly be Avellonian to do that.

Not to mention SWTOR implies Kreia was an agent if not a lover of the Sith Emperor, and all the devastation of the Jedi Civil War and the Dark Wars (as the First Jedi Purge was known at the time) was a (partly) failed effort to prime the Ritual of Nathema. Even then, Darth Vitiate retained her as one of his advisors, until Darth Baras imprisoned her on Corellia during the Second Galactic War, before being released by Darth Vowrawn and the Emperor's Wrath.

EDIT: Seriously, SWTOR reveals that Darth Vitiate had been toying with the Republic for a very long time. At least as far back as right after the Great Sith War, when he coopted Naga Sadow and Exar Kun's network of Dark Side fulcrums on Yavin IV by integrating his own Temple of Sacrifice and the Emperor's Sanctuary into the network. That, and placing the Imperial Guard Academy on the moon.

Not to mention the Children of the Emperor, a network of sleeper agents and spies directly linked to, controlled by, and empowered by the Emperor. All beneath the notice of the Jedi Order, thanks to at least one of the High Council always being the First Son/First Daughter of the Emperor. By the time the Jedi began to see the whole picture during the events of the games, they were simply horrified to realize just how much they danced without knowing in the palm of the Emperor's hand.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

The Banites were…quite committed to their code, weren’t they? I’d almost call them the most batshit insane, evil, breed of Sith there has ever been, but you have to admire their accomplishments.

Then again, a thousand years of Banite scheming lead to a few decades of abject power and misery for the galaxy until it all suddenly imploded.

Meanwhile, the very ancient Sith, built a civilisation that muddled along quite nicely for thousands of years. More brutal than abjectly evil. Strangely enough, for a man turned and trained by a Banite, Darth Vader would have fit in to the ancient Sith Empires quite nicely. He’d have gotten along famously with Darth Malgus.

An orthodox banite could argue that this happened because palpatine abandoned the banite system. Would vader have made a better ruler? perhaps. I would argue that the banite system selected for people who were good at subversion, but not good at running things.

 

[Blasterbot]

Not to mention SWTOR implies Kreia was an agent if not a lover of the Sith Emperor, and all the devastation of the Jedi Civil War and the Dark Wars (as the First Jedi Purge was known at the time) was a (partly) failed effort to prime the Ritual of Nathema. Even then, Darth Vitiate retained her as one of his advisors, until Darth Baras imprisoned her on Corellia during the Second Galactic War, before being released by Darth Vowrawn and the Emperor's Wrath.

EDIT: Seriously, SWTOR reveals that Darth Vitiate had been toying with the Republic for a very long time. At least as far back as right after the Great Sith War, when he coopted Naga Sadow and Exar Kun's network of Dark Side fulcrums on Yavin IV by integrating his own Temple of Sacrifice and the Emperor's Sanctuary into the network. That, and placing the Imperial Guard Academy on the moon.

Not to mention the Children of the Emperor, a network of sleeper agents and spies directly linked to, controlled by, and empowered by the Emperor. All beneath the notice of the Jedi Order, thanks to at least one of the High Council always being the First Son/First Daughter of the Emperor. By the time the Jedi began to see the whole picture during the events of the games, they were simply horrified to realize just how much they danced without knowing in the palm of the Emperor's hand.

The more I hear about SWTOR lore the less I like it. KOTOR 1 and 2 had great stories. kinda sad to see how they end up.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

The more I hear about SWTOR lore the less I like it. KOTOR 1 and 2 had great stories. kinda sad to see how they end up.

Well, it's more that the trilogy is setup like a Greek tragedy, or at least Revan's storyline is. It's classic catharsis, we have a great man, strong in the Force, a natural with the lightsaber and leading fleets and armies, who becomes a hero by crushing a foreign invasion and uncovering an even bigger threat behind it all...

...but this same success just feeds Revan's hubris, as he arrogantly thinks he and he alone can defeat the Sith Emperor. Not once, not twice, but three times, with the last even seeing him trying to trigger the Ritual of Nathema himself. The Emperor even mocks him for it, and in the end, Revan has to step down and let a new generation of heroes finish what he started. He then later redeems himself, his spirit (and the spirit of every person Tenebrae ever deceived, used, and murdered) joining the champions of Light and Dark to banish Tenebrae's spirit once and for all.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

More proof that Dromund Kaas (DK) chat on SWTOR is insane. We actually got into an impromptu therapy session, after one player was complaining that she was already 30 but still unmarried

We basically ended up convincing her not to rush these things...that, and her being unmarried is one reason that she's still able to SWTOR in the first place. Calmed her down quickly enough

...makes me wonder why this kind of discussions never take place on Coruscant chat

Because only pussys play Republic?

Sith for life in TOR, the only proper path.

called it.

It could be interesting if they did it justice, but they won't.

And yes, the galaxy needs the Jedi if it wants to last. SW weapons technology is too powerful and far too available.

You can't have a unified galaxy with that many individuals from that many disparate species ruled in any kind of centralized manner for any sustained period of time without the Force actively supporting that centralized authority. Without the Jedi you will end up with warlordism run rampant and given the weapons tech available to basically everyone that means galactic scale genocides and wars on a scale that dwarf basically anything in SW history.

The Republic lasted and had peace because it had thousands (to hundreds of thousands) of, basically self less, superhuman precognitive individuals continually dedicating their lives to maintaining it and that peace. Absent Sith interference, a Jedi is always going to be in the right place at the right time with the right intervention to benefit the Republic (or to be more precise, the ideals of the Jedi).

 

[Skallagrim]

You can't have a unified galaxy with that many individuals from that many disparate species ruled in any kind of centralised manner for any sustained period of time, period.

The Republic lasted and had peace because it wasn't centralised.

The Jedi are certainly a force for good, but there's no indication that they were the critical piece of the machinery. I'm pretty sure that if the Jedi and the Sith had both gone completely extinct at Ruusan, then the absence of Jedi doing good would cancel out the absence of Banite Sith subverting things from the shadows. Assuming for the sake of the argument that no new Light or Dark side organisations arise in the relevant period... the Republic would do perfectly fine. The added bad shit the Jedi wouldn't be around to stop would be balanced out by the averted bad shit the Sith wouldn't be around to instigate.

 

[Skallagrim]

Well, it's more that the trilogy is setup like a Greek tragedy, or at least Revan's storyline is. It's classic catharsis, we have a great man, strong in the Force, a natural with the lightsaber and leading fleets and armies, who becomes a hero by crushing a foreign invasion and uncovering an even bigger threat behind it all...

...but this same success just feeds Revan's hubris, as he arrogantly thinks he and he alone can defeat the Sith Emperor. Not once, not twice, but three times, with the last even seeing him trying to trigger the Ritual of Nathema himself. The Emperor even mocks him for it, and in the end, Revan has to step down and let a new generation of heroes finish what he started. He then later redeems himself, his spirit (and the spirit of every person Tenebrae ever deceived, used, and murdered) joining the champions of Light and Dark to banish Tenebrae's spirit once and for all.

That's an interesting take on it. While I certainly understand the fan dislike of the way Revan was handled (I, too, prefer happy fairy tale endings) -- the way this went, ultimately, worked within the story. Revan was always more like a mythical hero, with the attendant hamartia. To have him go out in a tragedy, but his efforts vindicated after -- essentially -- an age in purgatory, is very fitting.

In fact, they do here what TLJ supposedly tried to do. Except they did it with a logical set-up and pay-off, and they did it with a character where it ends up fitting, rather than to a character whose pure theme is hope (rather than tragedy). It's nice to see how that works out. Even if we all have personal preferences about what we want for certain characters, the big question is wheher something works as a story-- on its own terms.

I would have done it differently myself, for Revan, but the way the story went does have internal consistency.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

You can't have a unified galaxy with that many individuals from that many disparate species ruled in any kind of centralised manner for any sustained period of time, period.

The Republic lasted and had peace because it wasn't centralised.

The Jedi are certainly a force for good, but there's no indication that they were the critical piece of the machinery. I'm pretty sure that if the Jedi and the Sith had both gone completely extinct at Ruusan, then the absence of Jedi doing good would cancel out the absence of Banite Sith subverting things from the shadows. Assuming for the sake of the argument that no new Light or Dark side organisations arise in the relevant period... the Republic would do perfectly fine. The added bad shit the Jedi wouldn't be around to stop would be balanced out by the averted bad shit the Sith wouldn't be around to instigate.

The Republic realistically wouldn't have lasted if the Force was removed. It would have broken apart into a very large number of pocket empires that all have effective planet destroying weapons and as a consequence you are going to end up with basically eternal, incredibly bloody, war.

The Jedi were the people who ended up in the right place at the right time to be able to defuse all of the little catalysts that would spiral out of control if not interfered with.

The Force basically means plot shields and that the galaxy bends itself to ensure that you are in the right place to accomplish your goals (whatever they happen to be). For the Jedi their goals were generally the good of the Republic, for the Sith it's usually galactic conquest or whatever.