Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[DarthOne]

LGBTQ+ is not a new thing. The Greeks and the roman's were partaking in all kinds of deviant behaviors, how many myths involved bestiality and incest alone? not to mention it was very common for roman soldiers and noblemen to have "Their way" with barbarians. heck the practice of Sodomy (Gay men having sex with each other) dates back to biblical times. Abortion as well was a very common thing in the bronze age. It should be a red flag to everyone that rather than support monogamy, responsible birth control methods, and disciplined hedonism (IE condoms) the left's immediate answer is to go back to the reckless uncontrolled hedonistic lifestyles of the bronze age.

Fair point.

 

[AspblastUSA]

The fact that people are makng parallels to the alt right and the progressive left reinforces my point that the reimagined First Order isn't an unskilled political hack-job like Disney has been fond of making. Even if it is politicized it is done subtly and with enough skill that many sides can be painted on it.

Honestly if anything I'd thought they tied back to the actual Nazis, specifically their growth in the late 20s and early 30s. A republic wins over an empire but the resulting instability sees many otherwise reasonable people turning back to authoritarianism (that turns out to be of a far worse stripe than it's predecessor) because they simply want things to go back to normal.

 

[LindyAF]

It's more the specific facet of "elements of a militaristic nazi-stand in are infiltrating society, tricking individuals and governments into adopting ideas that turn them into tools of thst regime and undermining the ideals of thier home nation" bit that sounds a bit too much like contemporary leftist conspiracy theories.

I suppose to a point it doesn't line up, since the modern theory is that actual nazis are ding it, not just people being tricked by nazis, but that’s treated as a thin line in practice. And the Institute did say they were taking inspiration from real groups and movements, hence why I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt.

This is something that's already present in the Sequel Trilogy stuff, so I think this is more trying to make it work better than it is introducing it. And yeah, in the Sequel Trilogy it was "actual nazis" doing it, too, since the "Centrists" were all actually crypto-Imperialists and First Order personnel.

My issue with this is more that it doesn't really make any sense, since it struggles from an issue Star Wars has a lot, which is that their Good Guys need to be right about everything and the Bad Guys need to be malicious about everything, regardless of what it is or where the threat is coming from.

Like, let's say the "Populists" started saying "yeah, that's a good idea" to a lot of what the "Centrist" proposals would be like. Like, they don't demilitarize, instead they build a sizable standing military, and they spend more resources policing the Outer Rim and attempting to expand into the Unknown Territories. How well would that have gone for the First Order?

We even basically saw this issue with the whole "First Senator" thing. The "Centrists" propose a stronger executive. Okay, who's the logical pick for that? Maybe someone who was a senator for ages and was one of the central generals of the rebellion? One who just so happens to be one of the few people who actually thinks the First Order exists and should be taken seriously? Without the Centrists getting the info that Leia was actually Darth Vader's daughter, they would have lost the whole thing for the First Order right there.

 

[AspblastUSA]

Without the Centrists getting the info that Leia was actually Darth Vader's daughter, they would have lost the whole thing for the First Order right there.

Ironically that's one of the things that Rise of Skywalker made better. If the Centrists really are acting as proxies for the FO, and the FO really are acting as proxies for Palpatine, there was no chance in hell that the plan wasn't forged specifically knowing that Leia could be discredited. After all, the man masterminding this whole idea was in the room when Vader figured out he had a daughter.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

LGBTQ+ is not a new thing. The Greeks and the roman's were partaking in all kinds of deviant behaviors, how many myths involved bestiality and incest alone? not to mention it was very common for roman soldiers and noblemen to have "Their way" with barbarians. heck the practice of Sodomy (Gay men having sex with each other) dates back to biblical times. Abortion as well was a very common thing in the bronze age. It should be a red flag to everyone that rather than support monogamy, responsible birth control methods, and disciplined hedonism (IE condoms) the left's immediate answer is to go back to the reckless uncontrolled hedonistic lifestyles of the bronze age.

Eh...I'm not even sure why LGBTQ+ should even be an issue in-universe. Unless there was some sort of cultural regression in the post-Galactic Wars period (which isn't that far-fetched, considering how...secular, the post-Ruusan Jedi were), no one should actually care. Assuming the games accurately reflect the culture of that period, then homosexual relationships were perfectly acceptable during the latter 3000s-early 2000s BBY. Whether Jedi, Sith, Mandalorian, or just regular 'pub or imp, it simply wasn't an issue. People around them just took it in stride.

Meta-wise, I personally think that makes the position on the issue clear more respectably than any angry shouting or whatnot that seems to be the norm for 'woke' activism these days.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

I could open the "Political Faction" site of the wookiepedia and find more examples than the post-ANH republic had. Are we certain their parliament had any members outside the core worlds? I start to feel that they for one reason or another excluded the middle and outer rims because said factions might show more approval of the empire than even the "populist" faction.

No, much worse. The populists and centrists are both corists, both represent the affluent worlds. I'd wager that the rim parties might be neo-confederate, Empire light, or wanting to MRGA and bring back an actual working system that hasn't been used in at least a hundred lifetimes.

Though neo-confederate is funnier, because then you have a diverse coalition wanting the Rim to rise again. Maybe even writing paens to their heroes such as Dooku.

 

[Bacle]

So in regards to the Templin Institute vid, that isn't a bad take at all.

It doesn't feel like a contemporary take fuel by modern politics.

It feels more like a blend of Legends and Disney canon while doing weird things with the time line because of Thrawn leaving/being taken pre-Yavin, and also adds in some of the old Trioculus young adult novels with Rey.

Speaking of Rey...I have this weird thought that Omega from the Bad Batch might be Rey's mom, and that Omega is effectively Palpatine's 'daughter'/sex-switched clone.

 

[AspblastUSA]

Speaking of Rey...I have this weird thought that Omega from the Bad Batch might be Rey's mom, and that Omega is effectively Palpatine's 'daughter'/sex-switched clone.

At first I was going to say it didn’t work out because I am fairly certain her father is canonically a force null sheev clone. Unfortunately that wouldn’t stop palpatine from doing it for even a second so... maybe.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Dunno exactly how accurate the representation is, but this had me ROFL

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

At first I was going to say it didn’t work out because I am fairly certain her father is canonically a force null sheev clone. Unfortunately that wouldn’t stop palpatine from doing it for even a second so... maybe.

it's also entirley within palps's nature to have a backup plan in case Anakin did not turn to the darkside or proved to be a liability. Omega may not have anything to do with Rey other than to potentially show that Palpatine was more than capable of creating force sensitive clones if need be.

 

[Captain X]

 

[Typhonis]

Stormtroopers....are they a joke or was it because Vader and Tarkin wanted the heroes to escape? The reason I want to discuss this is because it is a trope. "Stormtroopers are such bad shots they can't hit the broadside of a barn at close quarters."

Yet in the same movie and subsequent ones , we see something different. The heroes escaping by the skin of their teeth. Secondary characters being cut down as the troopers close to close range. Endor showed the ground troops winning until Chewie managed to snag a scout walker with Ewok help.

So are stormtroopers a joke, not worth the training they were put through or are they good troops for the setting?

Lastly.....real combat is nothing like a rifle range where you have time to aim and fire. Usually you have split seconds to fire and mostly you are sending several shots at the enemy, not in a 'this bullet has a name on it' and more along the lines of ' to whom it may concern.'

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Stormtroopers....are they a joke or was it because Vader and Tarkin wanted the heroes to escape? The reason I want to discuss this is because it is a trope. "Stormtroopers are such bad shots they can't hit the broadside of a barn at close quarters."

Yet in the same movie and subsequent ones , we see something different. The heroes escaping by the skin of their teeth. Secondary characters being cut down as the troopers close to close range. Endor showed the ground troops winning until Chewie managed to snag a scout walker with Ewok help.

So are stormtroopers a joke, not worth the training they were put through or are they good troops for the setting?

Lastly.....real combat is nothing like a rifle range where you have time to aim and fire. Usually you have split seconds to fire and mostly you are sending several shots at the enemy, not in a 'this bullet has a name on it' and more along the lines of ' to whom it may concern.'

It's a meme that has been truly embraced by every writer since Disney took over, possibly as a result of flanderisation over the course of decades. Even the vaunted Dave Filoni gives great effort to make Stormtroopers as nonthreatening as possible because he can't conceive of putting his OCs in any real danger where they have to be smart and pick their battles instead of just "pew-pewing" whilst spouting one liners.

It's lazy writing essentially. Sure there was plot armour in the Original Trilogy, but never to this extent.

 

[Captain X]

Honestly, what it comes down to is that Lucas put his characters in situations he shouldn't have if he wanted to keep to the reputation he had established for his stormtroopers. The only place it really worked was when Han goes chasing after a couple of them only to run into a whole room of them, and since everyone is either panicked or taken completely off guard, it works that none of them actually manage to hit Han as he runs away.

 

[Typhonis]

A nice scene would have been to have Rey, Poe and Finn, get in over their heads. Two stormtroopers in very heavy armor with built in shields and portable repeating blasters are keeping their heads down by playing the game 'talking machine guns'.

Finn lamenting they were supposed to sneak in and now, more heavy troopers are coming. Heavy troopers are stormtroopers equipped to handle close in fighting like this. Now our heroes have to use their brains to escape because brute force and the Force can't help them. The shields prevent Rey from bouncing shots back at them.

All three of them look at a garbage chute as a heavy trooper lowers a grenade launcher....

 

[LindyAF]

Stormtroopers....are they a joke or was it because Vader and Tarkin wanted the heroes to escape? The reason I want to discuss this is because it is a trope. "Stormtroopers are such bad shots they can't hit the broadside of a barn at close quarters."

Yet in the same movie and subsequent ones , we see something different. The heroes escaping by the skin of their teeth. Secondary characters being cut down as the troopers close to close range. Endor showed the ground troops winning until Chewie managed to snag a scout walker with Ewok help.

So are stormtroopers a joke, not worth the training they were put through or are they good troops for the setting?

Lastly.....real combat is nothing like a rifle range where you have time to aim and fire. Usually you have split seconds to fire and mostly you are sending several shots at the enemy, not in a 'this bullet has a name on it' and more along the lines of ' to whom it may concern.'

I think it's similar to what someone here's - I think it was @ShadowArxxy - analysis of TIE fighters and their pilots. They were not originally intended to be terrible (although they also weren't originally intended to be super elite Spess Mehrenes or anything).

In A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back imperials consistently do well against non-main characters, and lose to main characters in non-ridiculous or embarrassing ways. But by the third movie, the focus on the main characters meant that we'd mostly seen them losing, and then Return of the Jedi has them lose to non-main characters in a ridiculous and embarrassing way (albeit with main character support), so they had a bad reputation going in the EU, and the EU then double and tripled down.

 

[f1onagher]

One of the many bits of worldbuilding that's been lost to the Stormtrooper flanderization is that since they're no longer elite shock troopers most writers have erased the existence of the regular Imperial army grunts. The fact that all it would take is one writer showcasing Imperial regulars in place of eponymous Stormtroopers to give us a trend of separating the elite Stormies from the standard troopers to get the ball rolling makes it hurt worse. I thought writers were all about standing out from the crowd.

One of the several issues that eat my colon about the Mandalorian was just how pathetic the Imperial troops are. Their performance against the raiders on the Juggernaut episode hurt my eyes.

 

[LindyAF]

tbh I don't mind erasing the Imperial Army Grunts since we pretty much never see them in the movies. They're an EU creation that never got used, even by the EU. Except I think in the Solo movie, but tbh that wasn't a good detail, I'd have kept Han as a Navy guy. Also, I don't think the Stormtroopers are ever mentioned as really being elite in the original trilogy.

One thing that would have made more sense with the Stormtroopers is to have them still be Clones. It fits much better with the original trilogy and the Empire in general. Hell, even in the sequel trilogy a clone army is the sort of thing it would make sense for the first order as-is to wield, rather than the absolute nonsense explanation we get for first order stormtroopers.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

One of the many bits of worldbuilding that's been lost to the Stormtrooper flanderization is that since they're no longer elite shock troopers most writers have erased the existence of the regular Imperial army grunts.

To be fair, that's pretty much something the EU made up out of thin air. We *never* actually saw these supposed Imperial Army grunts exist anywhere in the movies, especially since General Veers' field armor is *literally* modified Snowtrooper gear.

One thing that would have made more sense with the Stormtroopers is to have them still be Clones. It fits much better with the original trilogy and the Empire in general. Hell, even in the sequel trilogy a clone army is the sort of thing it would make sense for the first order as-is to wield, rather than the absolute nonsense explanation we get for first order stormtroopers.

I somewhat disagree here -- while ANH was thin on backstory, the "Clone Wars" were clearly indicated to be something in the past, which would contradict clones still being around.

 

[LindyAF]

For "Elite Imperial Force" I love the Death Trooper design. Easily identifiable, clearly Imperial, but also clearly elite. Also, those helmets are bad ass.

Haven't seen the Mandalorian but watching a few clips it seems like a big worldbuilding issue is making Mando armor seemingly completely blaster-proof? I don't like that. More blaster resistant than stormtrooper gear might make sense, but total immunity or at least as much resistance as they have leads to scenes where Mandos basically stand around in the open while lines of stormtroopers are firing at them (something that never happens in the OT).

I somewhat disagree here -- while ANH was thin on backstory, the "Clone Wars" were clearly indicated to be something in the past, which would contradict clones still being around.

Not really, at least if the clone-using side won it. Having the Clone Wars be the first use of a clone army which enable the Empire would make a fair bit of sense with what we get in ANH.