Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

That was always interesting to me, how the CIS is formed on two contradictory impulses-plutocratic corporations that want to rule unencumbered by any law or regulation, and desperate worlds far from the shining of Coruscant. The CIS wields two opposing things into one organization, which always spoke of how artificial it really was as a movement.

At the same time, droid armies could have defeated the republic simply because you can always make more droids, and the CIS would have likely won the war simply due to attrition if not for the war being a one sided chess match.
 
That was always interesting to me, how the CIS is formed on two contradictory impulses-plutocratic corporations that want to rule unencumbered by any law or regulation, and desperate worlds far from the shining of Coruscant. The CIS wields two opposing things into one organization, which always spoke of how artificial it really was as a movement.

At the same time, droid armies could have defeated the republic simply because you can always make more droids, and the CIS would have likely won the war simply due to attrition if not for the war being a one sided chess match.
That whole "the CIS would have won a fair fight" idea keeps irritating me. It's just utterly impossible. I've taken a glance at the rough numbers, and the Republic outgunned the CIS seven-to-one... on everything. Note that in the US Civil War, the Union held a three-to-one advantage of that kind over the CSA. Which was why the Confederates were so obsessed with getting early victories, and getting foreign backing on that basis. If it turned into a war of attrition, they were fucked. (And indeed, they were.)

That's three-to-one. Now take seven-to-one. Does the CIS have a chance? Fuck no. For starters, those plutocrats rely on profits. Due to the war, their available market is now... the CIS. Not the Republic. So they're cut off from most of the galactic market. They need to win very quickly, or they are doomed. They may be rich now, but their wealth evaporates with every passing day. As for just building droids endlessly... they'll be running out of credits soon enough. Meanwhile, the Republic will still have ever more warm bodies to throw into the war.

Now, the CIS has an advantage at the start, in that they've secretly been building that droid army. They are prepared for war, the Republic is not. But in starting the war, they've made the same mistake the Confederates made in firing on Fort Sumter; the same mistake the Japanese made in bombing Pearl Harbor. They have awakened a giant. The Republic needs to get its war industry up and going, yes. But once it does... the CIS doesn't stand a shadow of a chance. Even if they literally burn down half the Republic... what's then left of the Republic still outperforms them in every meaningful way.

As such, the weirdly persistent idea "the CIS would have won if Palpatine-as-Sidious hadn't deliberately undermined them" is demonstrably incorrect. The opposite must logically be true. The only reason the CIS wasn't curb-stomped as soon as the Republic formed the Grand Army was that Palpatine was undermining the Republic's war effort. That's the only explanation that makes sense.
 
Somewhat of a different topic.

Am I the only one who thinks Lumiya is actually a really rich and interesting character, and that her role in LOTF(controversial as it is) ought to be more appreciated?
 
That whole "the CIS would have won a fair fight" idea keeps irritating me. It's just utterly impossible. I've taken a glance at the rough numbers, and the Republic outgunned the CIS seven-to-one... on everything. Note that in the US Civil War, the Union held a three-to-one advantage of that kind over the CSA. Which was why the Confederates were so obsessed with getting early victories, and getting foreign backing on that basis. If it turned into a war of attrition, they were fucked. (And indeed, they were.)
Where are you getting those rough numbers from? They don't jive with my understanding but I admit I haven't studied everything Star Wars.

A brief glance though, showed me this:

"Our droid armies outnumber the Republic clones 100 to 1." Count Dooku, Clone Wars episode 1, season 1.

"Our problem is simple—the Separatist navy has four times the number of ships we do. We must slow down their ship production or this war will end quickly, and not in our favor." ―Mace Windu, Clone Wars: Shipyards of Doom

That doesn't look like outnumbered 7 to 1 to me.
 
Lumiya is fascinating to me for a few reasons.

Firstly-I think she both loves and hates Luke. She hates him because he injured her greatly and caused her to fail in her mission, she hates him because he overthrew Palpatine, her one source of security, and she hates him because she can't be with him. She wishes she was Mara, but she isn't.

Secondly-she was tasked with discrediting him, or getting him to defect, and I do think Shira Ella Collan Brie felt genuine feelings for rebel Luke Skywalker. Which were shattered when he shot her down. So she is deeply bitter about that.

This means she hates Mara, because Mara as she tells Jacen had a much easier life, post Palpatine anyway, than she did, and she ended up with Luke, she was who Mara could have been, their inverses.

So as LOTF goes, Lumiya doesn't pretend she can embody the Sith legacy, but she can pass it down, as someone somewhat initiated into the Banite tradition, given her training with Vader. She also, I think genuinely believes what she says when she speaks of sacrifice, and giving oneself for others. Meeting Vergere-I think Lumiya's beliefs on what the Sith are for changed(and I don't wish to discuss Vergere here), so she sees Jacen as possibly that dream of the selfless Sith. Something she wishes she was, given her service and devotion to Palpatine, but also genuine commitment to the Sith order. She also wants revenge on the Skywalkers and Luke, and more importantly than all of that-wants to die.

She wants to find a cause to die for. So turning Jacen is the crowning achievement of her life, as it achieves both her personal desire for vengeance against Luke-something she denies again and again when asked, but also because Jacen if he succeeds will have shown Lumiya's dream true. If not, then she'd be dead and at least Luke Skywalker will be hurting.

Most Sith don't go off to buy their apprentices time and space, Lumiya does. After Mara's death, Lumiya takes the blame and goes to confront Luke on Terephon. She sacrifices herself for Jacen, and also intends to die at Luke's hands. She also has enough respect for him, to not pretend the contest is anything but a final settlement. "Remember your oaths Luke", if she hated him, or was truly indifferent, she wouldn't have said that. Luke made an oath to redeem her and he failed.

She doesn't just see Jacen as her pawn, but she does.

Lumiya I think warrants deeper appreciation for her very human motivations of vengeance mixed with a genuine commitment to an ideal.

And what do you know? Lumiya gets the last laugh in the end. Mara dies, Jacen dies, Luke is exiled.

She wins through self sacrifice.
 
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Where are you getting those rough numbers from? They don't jive with my understanding but I admit I haven't studied everything Star Wars.

A brief glance though, showed me this:

"Our droid armies outnumber the Republic clones 100 to 1." Count Dooku, Clone Wars episode 1, season 1.

"Our problem is simple—the Separatist navy has four times the number of ships we do. We must slow down their ship production or this war will end quickly, and not in our favor." ―Mace Windu, Clone Wars: Shipyards of Doom

That doesn't look like outnumbered 7 to 1 to me.
Those quotes simply don't fit with the numbers we have on galactic population density + general star density. The Essential Atlas has a map showing us this, and a map showing the CIS at its greatest extent. If you look at what the CIS holds, and you interpret the numbers as generously towards them as possible... you arrive at roughly seven-to-one. The Republic is just a lot bigger, generally holds areas with greater stellar density, and specifically holds areas noted for extremely high-population worlds. (Not to mention the galaxy's key industrial centres. Again, it's similar to the Union holding the whole North-East, and the Confederacy having, uh... Richmond's iron works?)

Really, when I think about this kind of conflict, I'm always reminded of the fact that at one point in the Civil War, the Confederates were literally out of boots, whereas the Union didn't know where the army was going to be next month, so Monty Meigs just sent enough new boots for everyone to two different locations. Wars tend to be won by the side that has way more men, way more supplies, way more money, way more industry... way more everything.

Well, that's the Republic.
 
Am I the only one who thinks Lumiya is actually a really rich and interesting character, and that her role in LOTF(controversial as it is) ought to be more appreciated?
@Skallagrim thoughts on my above post?
I agree with it, and I think it's a very well-considered take on the character and her motivations. In a way, she's both exceedingly petty and spiteful, and surprisingly willing to step beyond herself to achieve a goal that goes beyond her person. This hints at the fact that she has the theoretical ability to move beyond her hate, but doesn't do so in practice. She could choose to reject her hate, and be redeemed, and she very explicitly doesn't do it. She knows hate is a poison that will kill her, too, but she values revenge over survival.

She has her victory, but it's also hollow. In the end, she can only achieve in destruction -- and her legacy is one of destruction, too. Although, it should be granted, if Jacen had been trained by anyone else, he might just have made another choice in (what was, as it happened) has final moment. So some notion of selflessness did persist.
 
If Jacen wins and institutes his golden new empire(or sets up Allana as Jedi Queen)-Lumiya's victory is less hollow, but you could argue its thus hollow in a different way in the sense a skywalker still gets to hold the conch.

So as far as her plan goes, Jacen winning or losing means she wins either way.

But I think that is the interesting dichotomy she is driven simultaneously by personal feelings of vengeance and bitterness but also really did believe what she said when she was telling Jacen about sacrifice and selflessness.

if Jacen had been trained by anyone else, he might just have made another choice in (what was, as it happened) has final moment. So some notion of selflessness did persist.
that's actually really interesting, as far as Jacen goes. He allows himself to be slain for Allana to survive, which is selfless, but also Allana was his motivation(such as his motivation is not contradictorily handled) for becoming a Sith. So its a sort of selfless selfishness, or selfish selflessness. Hence the question is Jacen really redeemed? I think some of the light in him shines through, but he never rejected the cause in which he devoted himself. If as you say, it had been anyone else-he might have decided to kill Jaina instead, and let Allana and TK die.
 
If Jacen wins and institutes his golden new empire(or sets up Allana as Jedi Queen)-Lumiya's victory is less hollow, but you could argue its thus hollow in a different way in the sense a skywalker still gets to hold the conch.
Given the metaphysics of the setting, it's highly improbable that this would end up being anything other than an evil empire. Jacen intends for it to be good and just, but Jacen has also become a do-bad-things-for-a-noble-cause kind of person, and with the Force, that's always a bad thing. The "Revan problem", if you will.

In a more realistic setting, a succesful Caedus would be the Augustus, founding the true Empire after the brief, draconian reign of Palpatine (in the role of Caesar) and the chaotic period of war that followed the latter's death. Of course, Augustus himself was also a pitiless mass murderer, so there is that. But in Star Wars, someone like that -- if he has the Force -- can only go from bad to worse.
 
Given the metaphysics of the setting, it's highly improbable that this would end up being anything other than an evil empire. Jacen intends for it to be good and just, but Jacen has also become a do-bad-things-for-a-noble-cause kind of person, and with the Force, that's always a bad thing. The "Revan problem", if you will.

In a more realistic setting, a succesful Caedus would be the Augustus, founding the true Empire after the brief, draconian reign of Palpatine (in the role of Caesar) and the chaotic period of war that followed the latter's death. Of course, Augustus himself was also a pitiless mass murderer, so there is that. But in Star Wars, someone like that -- if he has the Force -- can only go from bad to worse.
Thing is, Jacen doesn't really envision himself as in charge.

He sees a vision both during his journey, and at the end of his life-of Allana reigning in age of peace and friendship.

That to me is really interesting, in that yes he's ambitious but its not so he can be a messianic ruler, but so his child can be. At some point in her life.

Allana is either the Dark Man(as the time goes Krayt)'s right hand woman, or she's queen of a peaceful galaxy. Jacen has no vision of himself ruling, in a permanent capacity.

Presumably...any empire of his would be intended to be passed on to Allana, or even might be something temporary for her to do away with. A sort of light side version of what Palpatine planned to do with his empire-dispose of it for something grander.

So Jacen becomes a monster, a tyrant, so someone else can reign in an age of peace and friendship, not a tyrant. His own child, but still.

Its the same sort of thinking as Lumiya-his sacrifices have someone else's future in mind.

He might envision Allana uniting the galaxy, just in a mundane political sense, but personally I've always reconciled Jacen's emphasis on the spiritual with his political focus in LOTF-to be Allana is more than just a Hapan queen that knits the galaxy together peacefully for a few decades, but as an actual Messianic figure of sorts. Hence her significance to everyone in FOTJ, as the "future Jedi Queen". Jedi and Sith alike. Perhaps his failure is why Allana is never Queen, or if she reigns its only until her own death and Krayt's reveal.

Jacen hopes that good will come from his evil. That is his sacrifice. Allana's triumph is his. Even if he is dead.
 
Given the metaphysics of the setting, it's highly improbable that this would end up being anything other than an evil empire. Jacen intends for it to be good and just, but Jacen has also become a do-bad-things-for-a-noble-cause kind of person, and with the Force, that's always a bad thing. The "Revan problem", if you will.

In a more realistic setting, a succesful Caedus would be the Augustus, founding the true Empire after the brief, draconian reign of Palpatine (in the role of Caesar) and the chaotic period of war that followed the latter's death. Of course, Augustus himself was also a pitiless mass murderer, so there is that. But in Star Wars, someone like that -- if he has the Force -- can only go from bad to worse.

Not that I think he'd be saintly, but how bad would Caedus as "galactic Augustus" be relative to Palpatine as "galactic Caesar"? The personality analogy applied to the former mean that he's not an unwavering hero who'd rather die than do evil, but matching (let alone exceeding) a complete monster like Palpatine for sheer evil is an order taller than Mt. Everest.

Ditto given that, while Caedus is redeemable deep down, Palpatine shows no signs of changing his ways unless it's to carry out his malevolent designs "more efficiently" or something. So there's that.
 
Caedus is fundamentally still a selfless man. Because compassion is the core of who Jacen is as a character. He wasn't called a "bleeding heart" for nothing. He made peace with the Vong, and cared deeply about others, especially those who were suffering.

What makes Caedus compelling is he does what he does out of a selfless love for others. Anakin fell for a selfish love.

But it takes an extraordinary degree of selflessness to damn yourself because you care just that much about others.

How do you redeem someone so committed to evil that good will come?
 
Kinda hard to enforce your authority with no navy or formal military; the NR of course in canon outright refused to learn from this mistake.

One of the epic stupidities of the old EU was the New Republic literally deciding that it was morally impermissible to have warships significantly larger and more powerful than a common Star Destroyer because. . . that was just too much power to entrust to a single captain.

BTW, were the Separatists really that much in the wrong for wanting to leave the Republic?

They really were not, and one of the things I like about the post-reboot canon is that this was actually talked about in an intentionally awkward conversation between Padme and Mon Mothma, in which they ended up agreeing that the nascent Rebel Alliance wasn't legally equivalent to the Separatists because its leadership came from members of the Senate.

Or in other words, "The Separatists were the bad guys because they were Outer Rim nobodies rebelling against us, we're the good guys because we're the Republic's ruling elite trying to take back our rightful power."
 
That whole "the CIS would have won a fair fight" idea keeps irritating me. It's just utterly impossible.

Well, in a "fair" fight with Sith influences removed, the Republic wouldn't have been sitting on an act of plot secret Army and Navy of massive proportions, so it would have essentially zero expeditionary military forces with which to coerce systems to remain in the central government. Political negotiations between a non-Sith Chancellor and non-Sith Seperatist leadership would have actually been in good faith and could have potentially resolved the grievances without war in the first place.
 
Thing is, Jacen doesn't really envision himself as in charge.

He sees a vision both during his journey, and at the end of his life-of Allana reigning in age of peace and friendship.

That to me is really interesting, in that yes he's ambitious but its not so he can be a messianic ruler, but so his child can be. At some point in her life.

Allana is either the Dark Man(as the time goes Krayt)'s right hand woman, or she's queen of a peaceful galaxy. Jacen has no vision of himself ruling, in a permanent capacity.

Presumably...any empire of his would be intended to be passed on to Allana, or even might be something temporary for her to do away with. A sort of light side version of what Palpatine planned to do with his empire-dispose of it for something grander.

So Jacen becomes a monster, a tyrant, so someone else can reign in an age of peace and friendship, not a tyrant. His own child, but still.

Its the same sort of thinking as Lumiya-his sacrifices have someone else's future in mind.

He might envision Allana uniting the galaxy, just in a mundane political sense, but personally I've always reconciled Jacen's emphasis on the spiritual with his political focus in LOTF-to be Allana is more than just a Hapan queen that knits the galaxy together peacefully for a few decades, but as an actual Messianic figure of sorts. Hence her significance to everyone in FOTJ, as the "future Jedi Queen". Jedi and Sith alike. Perhaps his failure is why Allana is never Queen, or if she reigns its only until her own death and Krayt's reveal.

Jacen hopes that good will come from his evil. That is his sacrifice. Allana's triumph is his. Even if he is dead.
This describes his underlying intent well. The issue with it is that he's very much willing to do evil things; indeed, hoping that "good will come from his evil". But in the setting, this is impossible. Evil comes from evil. Allana is just a kid, Caedus will be in charge for quite a bit longer, and every passing moment darkens him further.

Just like Anakin wanted to save Padme, and actually ended up killing her (or at least being instrumental in her death), the same kind of thing will happen to Jacen due to his choosing of this path. He ends up becoming so dark that he no longer wishes to yield power, truly believing that he knows best. Or Allana refuses to go along with his plans (recognising that his is evil and his empire is distorted and vile) and she becomes the 'Leia' to his 'Vader'. Or he manages to raise her, but since he's a Sith... he inevitably raises the dark version of her that he wanted to avoid, and she perpetuates the evil ways of his reign.

Not that I think he'd be saintly, but how bad would Caedus as "galactic Augustus" be relative to Palpatine as "galactic Caesar"? The personality analogy applied to the former mean that he's not an unwavering hero who'd rather die than do evil, but matching (let alone exceeding) a complete monster like Palpatine for sheer evil is an order taller than Mt. Everest.

Ditto given that, while Caedus is redeemable deep down, Palpatine shows no signs of changing his ways unless it's to carry out his malevolent designs "more efficiently" or something. So there's that.
In the context of the setting, he'd be less evil-for-the-sake-of-it than Palpatine. But of course, as has upon occasion been noted: there is no worse tyranny (in the long run) than the kind that genuinely believes it's doing "what's best". That kind of self-righteousness is inherently dangerous. (There's a reason I've long argued that "the ends justify the means" are the most evil words in history.)

Realistically, someone like Caedus in a "Force-less" setting would be an utterly hypocritical figure (much like Augustus himself), ruthlessly murdering a whole load of people, but ultimately establishing order that lasts for quite a bit. And he'd get to write the history books, so she'd be well-remembered. The main thing making that impossible in SW is the Force. Choosing Darkness only ever leads you further down that path.

Comparing all this to another famous setting: Caedus is basically the guy who says "we should use the Ring to defeat Sauron!"

There's only one way that kind of thing can end. No matter how good or selfless your intentions are. In fact, your pure conviction paradoxically only makes you more vulnerable to the corrupting influence of such power.

--------------------------------

Well, in a "fair" fight with Sith influences removed, the Republic wouldn't have been sitting on an act of plot secret Army and Navy of massive proportions, so it would have essentially zero expeditionary military forces with which to coerce systems to remain in the central government.
That's true, although a lot depends on what the CIS does. Without Sith influence, if they still decide to just secede, the Republic may just let them go. If, however, they do the kind of thing that was actually the casus belli (attacking and conquering non-seceded Republic worlds for strategic reasons), the Republic will fight.

At which point the Republic will need to get its war economy into gear, yes -- but it can, and it will.

Political negotiations between a non-Sith Chancellor and non-Sith Seperatist leadership would have actually been in good faith and could have potentially resolved the grievances without war in the first place.
True. If the Sith had died out early enough, the whole crisis would simply have been averted. Almost every major problem of the latter decades of the Old Republic can be traced directly to Sith manipulation.

My favourite POD for this is Plagueis and Venamis killing each other in 67 BBY. Ends the Sith lineage, before they can really kick the truly staggering feats of sabotage of the Republic into gear. The 35-year period between that duel and the invasion of Naboo truly formed the "Jahre der Entscheidung" for the Republic.
 
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In the context of the setting, he'd be less evil-for-the-sake-of-it than Palpatine. But of course, as has upon occasion been noted: there is no worse tyranny (in the long run) than the kind that genuinely believes it's doing "what's best". That kind of self-righteousness is inherently dangerous. (There's a reason I've long argued that "the ends justify the means" are the most evil words in history.)

It's not just that; it's the fact that the Dark Side is an inherently corrupting, addictive influence that steadily pushes you towards "evil for evil's sake".

That's true, although a lot depends on what the CIS does. Without Sith influence, if they still decide to just secede, the Republic may just let them go. If, however, they do the kind of thing that was actually the casus belli (attacking and conquering non-seceded Republic worlds for strategic reasons), the Republic will fight.

I think the Separatists would still want to secede from the Republic, because there were a lot of very legitimate political grievances stemming from the Core and Inner Rim worlds pretty much having a monopoly on political power and the Mid-Rim and Outer Rim pretty much being constantly screwed over.
 
Some general observations. In the old EU, Star Wars shows a pretty consistent cycle in the galaxy's history. It can be very easily summed up:


1) There's a divided galaxy. Regional powers coalesce and compete, leading to unification and/or wars over hegemony. Ultimately, union is achieved.

2) Considering the realities of a galaxy-spanning, multi-species polity, this union has to be dramatically decentralist to function in a way that satisfies the bulk of the populace. (If the union too centralist, dissent simply causes the previous phase of conflict to erupt again, until a unity that can count of clear majority support across the galaxy is achieved.)

3) However, decentralism has its weaknesses. Excesses abound in regions the central government cannot effectively control, creating dissatisfaction. The lack of a strong regime eventually causes a too-weak military as well (evenif this was not initially the case; a weak regime cannot endlessly maintain the proper application of political force that the maintanance of a strong military demands).

4) A contender for power arises. Either an external entity (e.g. Sith invasion) or an internal one (e.g. Palpatine taking over) makes a play for power, effectively using the advantages of centralisation to succeed. Sometimes, both happen in the same era, because one inspires the other. (For instance: Mandalorians invade the complacent Republic, which impels Revan to become a despotic leader figure.)

5) Because, as already noted, centralism on a galactic scale inherently sparks wide-spread opposition on very short notice, galaxy-spanning despotic empires tend to be relatively short-lived. Some kind of coalition arises to overthrow them.

6) Said coalition is inherently anti-centralist. This can lead to the deliberate re-establishment of an explicitly decentralist galactic order. Given the unpleasant memory of the recent centralist tyranny, this eventually works, but won't work forever. We go back to point (2). It can also lead to a fracturing of the galactic order, particularly if the coalition of rebels is only united by the common foe, or if the devastation is particularly dire (to the extent that re-establishing galactic union is simply too difficult to manage). We go back to point (1).


That's it. That's galactic history. Which is also why Star Wars is actually fairly realistic (except it goes back to the stand-by of point (2) too often, while we should see periods of disunity and fracturing more often). This is actually how it would go. But anyway... this tells us precisely what we may expect of the future, in-universe. We have arrived at point (6), after the period of despotism and rebellion.

The old EU persistently suggests that we just go back to point (2). The Empire, the Vong, the One Sith... no matter. Back to stand-by. I have my doubts about the realism of that. Realistically, Legacy would result in a fractured galaxy. You can't just keep throwing crises at the setting and still insist that everything goes "back to normal" afterwards. At some point, "normal" ceases to apply, and what's when the status quo just breaks down. Dark age inbound!

The new continuity has told us much less about 'the future', but we may glean that the New Republic is much more of a basket-case than in the old EU, while the success of the First Order is very telling in itself. Add Palpatine's last bout of planet-destroying and war-mongering, and I'm pretty sure that the galaxy is a fractured mess after the sequels. Dark age inbound!
I generally agree with you here. But I disagree with you on the Vong as just another centralist faction.

A total Yuuzhan Vong victory means the eradication of galactic civilization and its cycles of centralization and resistance thereof.

The Vong if they had prevailed, and smashed the NR and then conquered the rest of the galaxy, would have remade it for themselves, with the children of Yun-Yuuzhan at the height, and everyone else a dhuryam planted slave, a sacrifice to the gods, or genetically and physiologically altered(like some rodians were) to be a slave creature of sorts.

The Vong don't just wish to rule, they wish to colonize and remake the galaxy for themselves. If they had smashed all organized opposition, they'd have achieved this.

I suppose...you could argue that the same pressures would exist, just with the Vong's framework, as Shimmra had killed off any potential successors, there was the shamed one movement which wouldn't go away even in a total YV victory, ambitious men like Anor, and yeah-when Shimmra dies, Onimi is going to be disposed of as he pretty much can only rule through Shimmra. So maybe differing powerbases would break off from Yuuzhan'tar's orbit. There'd also definitely be a lot of alliances and power struggles, depending on the timeframe if Lah lives-he has a good shot at becoming Supreme Overlord, High Prefect Drathul, the shaper caste, and a lot of other players, would scramble in the event say Shimmra dies, around 40 ABY after the last remnants of native galactic resistance have been crushed to seize his seat or get their puppet on it.

It would be sort of like how the Islamic conquests ended the classical world, but the sheer size of the Umayyad and Abbasid empires led to their own fragmentation. And I'm not sure there are any Vong commanders or courtiers who are strong enough to reunite the empire once Shimmra dies. Lah probably, but he's also brutish and is not any sort of politician, Anor is the Vong Littlefinger but he's not as bad a gambler, and will bow out to save himself, other warmasters and domain leaders will throw their villips in the ring.

That said, a post Vong victory civil war would be even more devastating-remember the Vong eradicated their own galaxy after the end of a civil war, so once Shimmra dies, I expect fighting between Domains, shamed one rebellions, as well as local revolts from the galactic population.

Maybe someone Anor or whoever-could make the Vong religion and social structure more inclusive, getting native GFFA converts to the True Way, emulating the contest between the Umayyads and Abbasids. Thus overthrowing an old traditionalist like Supreme Overlord Lah or using an earlier POD Shedao Shai.

That said, a total vong victory flips the board your thesis is based on.
 
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