Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

Those quotes simply don't fit with the numbers we have on galactic population density + general star density. The Essential Atlas has a map showing us this, and a map showing the CIS at its greatest extent. If you look at what the CIS holds, and you interpret the numbers as generously towards them as possible... you arrive at roughly seven-to-one.

In other words, the "seven to one" ratio is only your own fanon analysis, which is definitively refuted by the canon quotes that @Bear Ribs cited. The Republic might indeed have a seven to one advantage in population density; that does not translate to a guaranteed ratio of military force, especially since the Galaxy Far Far Away is shown to have a relatively limited number of highly industrialized high-production worlds.

Given how heavily exploited the Outer Rim worlds are, it's entirely sensible that they have higher relative production and the population is more willing to dig deep to support the war effort. This is the entire reason the clone army was critical to the entire Clone Wars plan, not just Order 66; the only way the Republic would be able to field a large-scale expeditionary military after literally centuries of peace and complacency was to produce a slave army that wasn't drawn from the lazy, entitled population of the rich, prosperous, and utterly corrupt Republic Core and Mid-Rim Worlds. You think the Core World politicians have any actual willingness to suffer the slightest deprivation for the sake of the war? Seriously, Bail Organa, Padme Amidala, and maybe Mon Mothma are pretty much the only politicians in the entire Senate who demonstrate personal integrity and courage, and they're all part of the anti-war faction.

No clones equals no large-scale Republic military. The Core and Mid-Rim Worlds simply don't have the intestinal fortitude for it, which is why the attack on Coruscant would have been a masterstroke if it wasn't subverted by the Sith plans surrounding it. Bring the war to the Core, and the Core will fold like tissue paper.
 
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I generally agree with you here. But I disagree with you on the Vong as just another centralist faction.

A total Yuuzhan Vong victory means the eradication of galactic civilization and its cycles of centralization and resistance thereof.

The Vong if they had prevailed, and smashed the NR and then conquered the rest of the galaxy, would have remade it for themselves, with the children of Yun-Yuuzhan at the height, and everyone else a dhuryam planted slave, a sacrifice to the gods, or genetically and physiologically altered(like some rodians were) to be a slave creature of sorts.

The Vong don't just wish to rule, they wish to colonize and remake the galaxy for themselves. If they had smashed all organized opposition, they'd have achieved this.

I suppose...you could argue that the same pressures would exist, just with the Vong's framework, as Shimmra had killed off any potential successors, there was the shamed one movement which wouldn't go away even in a total YV victory, ambitious men like Anor, and yeah-when Shimmra dies, Onimi is going to be disposed of as he pretty much can only rule through Shimmra. So maybe differing powerbases would break off from Yuuzhan'tar's orbit. There'd also definitely be a lot of alliances and power struggles, depending on the timeframe if Lah lives-he has a good shot at becoming Supreme Overlord, High Prefect Drathul, the shaper caste, and a lot of other players, would scramble in the event say Shimmra dies, around 40 ABY after the last remnants of native galactic resistance have been crushed to seize his seat or get their puppet on it.

It would be sort of like how the Islamic conquests ended the classical world, but the sheer size of the Umayyad and Abbasid empires led to their own fragmentation. And I'm not sure there are any Vong commanders or courtiers who are strong enough to reunite the empire once Shimmra dies. Lah probably, but he's also brutish and is not any sort of politician, Anor is the Vong Littlefinger but he's not as bad a gambler, and will bow out to save himself, other warmasters and domain leaders will throw their villips in the ring.

That said, a post Vong victory civil war would be even more devastating-remember the Vong eradicated their own galaxy after the end of a civil war, so once Shimmra dies, I expect fighting between Domains, shamed one rebellions, as well as local revolts from the galactic population.

Maybe someone Anor or whoever-could make the Vong religion and social structure more inclusive, getting native GFFA converts to the True Way, emulating the contest between the Umayyads and Abbasids. Thus overthrowing an old traditionalist like Supreme Overlord Lah or using an earlier POD Shedao Shai.

That said, a total vong victory flips the board your thesis is based on.
Yeah, I agree. My line -- where you bolded my usage of the word Vong -- wasn't really meant to equate them to the others. The idea I objected to there is specifically that no matter how much shit the Republic has to deal with, things go "back to standby". Whereas I'd expect that after a certain number of galactic crises in a handful of decades, things would really reach a breaking point, and galactic civilisation would collapse into a dark age.

The Vong, on their own terms, are an "outside context problem". Indeed, like an external culture invading the one were focusing on. The early Caliphate, the Huns, the Mongols -- such comparisons make a lot of sense. I do indeed expect that if the vong had won, they'd have remade the galaxy in their own image... but then history wouldn't just end. They'd be subject to all sorts of internal pressures as well, yes. Maybe not in one generation, but a few down the line? For sure. Their internal politics show pretty clearly that this kind of thing is going to be happening eventually.

Vong victory would flip the board... and then re-set it with new pieces, fated to make very similar moves.

Arguably, if we want the closest "in-galaxy" comparison of what a Vong victory might look like, from a historical perspective, we might have to look to the Pius Dea period.
 
In other words, the "seven to one" ratio is only your own fanon analysis, which is definitively refuted by the canon quotes that @Bear Ribs cited.
The essential atlas is canonical to the old continuity. I've used high-quality digital images of both the population density map and the map of the CIS at its greatest extent (counting certain disputed regions for the CIS), overlaid the two, and used photoshop to count the pixels for each colour (representative of certain densities) within the Republic-controlled and CS-controlled regions. Naturally, it's always an estimate, but it gives a pretty clear indication of what we're looking at.

If you want to say canonical maps are now mere fanon -- fine, but I consider it a pretty valid source. To the point that such info-books (of various sorts) were consistently used to sort of paint over the little inconsistencies that derive from contradictory information in books, comics, films, episodes, games and whatnot.

The argument for greater motivation in the seceding areas can certainly be made. That's a whole other point. But I've already argued against that, as well. Note that Imperal Japan and the Confederate States of America were also going full jingo at the start, whereas the United States population was less enthousiastic for the fight. In the former case, to the point that there was a rather active isolationist movement. And then, when Japan attacked, even a noted leader of said isolationist movement -- Lindbergh -- wanted to sign up for military duty right away. The idea of "nah, let somebody else fight" that you outline goes right out the window under such circumstances. We see the same with the Confederates firing on Fort Sumter. That's the moment where the Northern public went from really hesitant about a war to really set on kicking in some teeth. (The Lusitania is another example of this.)

I view the moment where the CIS decides "Hey, let's have a Republic Senator eaten alive by a big monster in an arena!" as the obvious analogue to that. Without the Clone army, the only real difference would be that the Republic doesn't intervene so rapidly, and the eating-alive of one Senator and two Jedi goes through. At which point we have the spark for vast public outrage, and enlistment efforts kick into gear. And then it is war. One that the CIS still cannot hope to win, because -- unlike what Hideki Tojo, Jefferson Davis and some others appear to believe -- a jingoistic willingness to "dig deep" means fuck-all in the face of a war machine that veritably dwarfs anything you can bring to the fight.

Or are we to assume that Roosevelt was secretly controlling the Japanese, and Lincoln the Confederates, to make those guys lose wars they would otherwise have certainly won because they were so fanatically committed? I don't think so.
 
The Pius Dea are distinct in that they were a religious sect which seized political power and treated the government as a way to spread said sect and its mission.

The Vong are a different species, that came from a different galaxy, the main similarities are probably a religiously based specieism, whether humanocentrism, or the Vong notion of their own centrality in the creation of the universe.

Vong internal politics are based on domain(family or clan) and caste, with a strict hierarchy in the latter regard. But its stabillity kind of at the end of its road, as Shimmra has lost his mind and has no successor, and his himself ruled by a disgraced shaper and omnicidally insane court jester. The mix of infighting in the elite, Anor, and Shamed One rebellions means post Shimmra a vong galaxy would likely fragment. Though it depends on who is alive at the time.

Vong victory would flip the board... and then re-set it with new pieces, fated to make very similar moves.
Yep, probably you'd see a center of power at Yuuzhan'tar, and split offs in the Outer Rim and Former Hutt Space, with competent commanders like Nas Choka, and Vong garrisons elsewhere likely following their own commanders, as well as internecine domain strife. With the center trying to reassert itself.

A clever Vong "politician"(they don't really have an equal for this concept) would make use of the galactic periphery and recently subjugated species, and make reforms as to Vong religious doctrine, and you have a Vong style abbasid revolution.*

Eventually the center would suppress resistance, or it would be overcome, and the cycle would repeat. Just within a Vong political and religious framework, not the prior galactic civilization.

*there is also the shaper and priestly caste, which each of course in any society would have their own interests, and there'd be potential for cross caste political alliances, and the old order to crumble, even if its form remained.
 
The Pius Dea are distinct in that they were a religious sect which seized political power and treated the government as a way to spread said sect and its mission.

The Vong are a different species, that came from a different galaxy, the main similarities are probably a religiously based specieism, whether humanocentrism, or the Vong notion of their own centrality in the creation of the universe.

Vong internal politics are based on domain(family or clan) and caste, with a strict hierarchy in the latter regard. But its stabillity kind of at the end of its road, as Shimmra has lost his mind and has no successor, and his himself ruled by a disgraced shaper and omnicidally insane court jester. The mix of infighting in the elite, Anor, and Shamed One rebellions means post Shimmra a vong galaxy would likely fragment. Though it depends on who is alive at the time.
I I don't think he was talking about governing system nessicarrily. More along the lines of how it plays out with a All Imposing conquering force (the Vong-Pius) endlessly searching for their enemies in the void of Space who hide for surrvival and only have isolated enclaves to fight back from with the Rallying cry of the Vong being their religion which keeps them going even when other societies would give up on the fight. Stretch this out for a thousand years and you get the Pius. Of course maybe I'm too optimistic on this, what with how their are still surrviving opposition to the Vong and all... But it's Star Wars and the Galaxy is a huge place so maybe not
 
The Vong's conquest would have been completed before hand, the Pius Dea had to seize the government?

Vong infighting wouldn't really begin, much less the continuation of the cycle Skallagrim refers to until native resistance had been crushed.

Once it had, I expect that internal tensions in their society would have led to its fracture.

The Pius Dea's problem is they were not trying to remake the galaxy, but spread the religion of the Goddess and heck weren't even as harsh on aliens as the Imperium, who they are inspired by.

They couldn't even control the galactic DMV.

The Pius Dea are more like...Opus Dei or some religious sect seizing control of a government then treating it as their hereditary property. The Vong are an entirely different civilization, and their victory means Galactic Civilization ends. Even a total Pius Dea victory just means humanocentrism and Goddess worship is universal.

The Vong's political objectives and religious objectives were identical. The Pius Dea's objectives were primarily religious. For the Vong conquest was fulfilling the religious obligation, for the Pius Dea, it more amounted to fighting aliens in the Outer Rim, and supporting human colonies while spreading the faith.

To use RL sort of analogies-a Vong victory is a total Islamic conquest of Europe, and pretty much Eurasia, a Pius Dea victory is like...the Catholic Church or some sect within the Catholic Church seizing power in Europe and then waging wars in Europe's periphery while setting itself up as a dynasty.

I also don't think the vong would continue hunting for resistance, once they'd broken the Chiss, NR, and IR, as well as the Hutts, any smaller powers would fall as an inevitability.

The Pius Dea on the other hand, would probably have kept on looking for enemies.
 
The essential atlas is canonical to the old continuity. I've used high-quality digital images of both the population density map and the map of the CIS at its greatest extent (counting certain disputed regions for the CIS), overlaid the two, and used photoshop to count the pixels for each colour (representative of certain densities) within the Republic-controlled and CS-controlled regions. Naturally, it's always an estimate, but it gives a pretty clear indication of what we're looking at.

If you want to say canonical maps are now mere fanon -- fine, but I consider it a pretty valid source. To the point that such info-books (of various sorts) were consistently used to sort of paint over the little inconsistencies that derive from contradictory information in books, comics, films, episodes, games and whatnot.

The argument for greater motivation in the seceding areas can certainly be made. That's a whole other point. But I've already argued against that, as well. Note that Imperal Japan and the Confederate States of America were also going full jingo at the start, whereas the United States population was less enthousiastic for the fight. In the former case, to the point that there was a rather active isolationist movement. And then, when Japan attacked, even a noted leader of said isolationist movement -- Lindbergh -- wanted to sign up for military duty right away. The idea of "nah, let somebody else fight" that you outline goes right out the window under such circumstances. We see the same with the Confederates firing on Fort Sumter. That's the moment where the Northern public went from really hesitant about a war to really set on kicking in some teeth. (The Lusitania is another example of this.)

I view the moment where the CIS decides "Hey, let's have a Republic Senator eaten alive by a big monster in an arena!" as the obvious analogue to that. Without the Clone army, the only real difference would be that the Republic doesn't intervene so rapidly, and the eating-alive of one Senator and two Jedi goes through. At which point we have the spark for vast public outrage, and enlistment efforts kick into gear. And then it is war. One that the CIS still cannot hope to win, because -- unlike what Hideki Tojo, Jefferson Davis and some others appear to believe -- a jingoistic willingness to "dig deep" means fuck-all in the face of a war machine that veritably dwarfs anything you can bring to the fight.

Or are we to assume that Roosevelt was secretly controlling the Japanese, and Lincoln the Confederates, to make those guys lose wars they would otherwise have certainly won because they were so fanatically committed? I don't think so.
First let me applaud you doing all that work, I'd be interested in seeing your map if you'd be willing to post it. Such a thing would not only be interesting but highly useful as a reference for fanfic and such.

However I wanna point out, "Industrialized" doesn't necessarily mean to Star Wars what it does to us. They tend to have a remarkable number of key planets who are the only ones supplying a single critical good. Case in point, Kamino is literally the source of all clones, it's a plot point several times in the Clone Wars that taking out Kamino would eliminate any more clones. Thyferra is the only source for Bacta, you want medical treatment you need Thyferra-made supplies. The Empire got all it's capital ships from Kuat, that single planet made all the Star Destroyers, and Anaxes did the same for the Republic during the clone wars. This doesn't make much sense from any rational perspective but does allow for important keystone battles where all the Empire/Republic/New Republic resources are hinging on a single critical fight. But it also means absolute numbers aren't that important when there's only a couple of shipyards/cloning facilities/medical manufacturers in the galaxy anyway.
 
If you want to say canonical maps are now mere fanon -- fine, but I consider it a pretty valid source. To the point that such info-books (of various sorts) were consistently used to sort of paint over the little inconsistencies that derive from contradictory information in books, comics, films, episodes, games and whatnot.

No, you're missing my point. The old maps are (ex)canon, but your analysis from those maps is fanon and rests on the unsupported premise that industrial and military might are strictly proportional to population. This does not override the canon quotes which @Bear Ribs cited, and further goes against the additional fact that we've *seen* that the Republic was highly non-homogenous in military industry, with critical facilities concentrated in single systems and not evenly repeated.
 
First let me applaud you doing all that work, I'd be interested in seeing your map if you'd be willing to post it. Such a thing would not only be interesting but highly useful as a reference for fanfic and such.
I like doing weird shit like that. Usually for inane reasons, like -- in this case -- gathering infor for an article I wanted to write about the topic. The map itself was just temporary (I'd assumed I wouldn't be allowed to post high-quality scans anyway, overlaids or not). But I must have the spreadsheet with the numbers somewhere. (Like I said: inane reasons -- I haven't actually gone though with writing the article. Maybe I should finish that, at long last!)

However I wanna point out, "Industrialized" doesn't necessarily mean to Star Wars what it does to us. They tend to have a remarkable number of key planets who are the only ones supplying a single critical good. Case in point, Kamino is literally the source of all clones, it's a plot point several times in the Clone Wars that taking out Kamino would eliminate any more clones. Thyferra is the only source for Bacta, you want medical treatment you need Thyferra-made supplies. The Empire got all it's capital ships from Kuat, that single planet made all the Star Destroyers, and Anaxes did the same for the Republic during the clone wars. This doesn't make much sense from any rational perspective but does allow for important keystone battles where all the Empire/Republic/New Republic resources are hinging on a single critical fight. But it also means absolute numbers aren't that important when there's only a couple of shipyards/cloning facilities/medical manufacturers in the galaxy anyway.
I agree that this plays into it (and that it's bonkers). I still don't see a way for this to meaningfully affect the course of the war. Three points to support my own reading of things:

-- One: most of the really important planets (in this case, the key industrial worlds) are in or near to the Core, and held by the Republic. This actually makes a lot of sense, sine generally high population & urbanisation go hand-in-hand with industry, whereas the rural hinterland tends to be agricultural and under-industrialised. One would expect the Core to be way more industrialised, and the Rim to be mainly an eploitation region for raw resources (to be processed in and around the Core). The large number of apparently high-population & high-industry worlds in the Core supports that. Granted, there are industrial regions far outside the Core, mainly along the major hyperspace routes, but we certainly do get the impression that the industrial-capitalist heart of the galaxy is very much the Core.

-- Two: even if we assume that the Core merely has its much vaster population, and is not comparatively more industrialised per capita, it still wins because it's so much more densely inhabited. If the galaxy is about evenly industrialised per capita (equality in relative terms), then the more densely inhabited regions will still have way more to bring to any fight in absolute terms. For this to be circumvented, we'd have to assume that the Core is ludicrously under-industrialised, and the Rim ludicrously over-industrialised. That is: we'd have to assume that all those densely populated Core worlds are really mostly rural, and all those sparely populated Rim worlds are really industrial. That's theoretically a legitimate interpretation, but... it makes no sense at all. Rural worlds can't support such vast numbers without becoming urban-industrial by default, and urban-industrial societies only function on the basis of high-density populations.

-- Three: I'm not willing to accept the above assumption, because it's insane (and contradicts what we've seen of most Core worlds), but let's say for the sake of argument... Then the high population of the Republic is still a huge factor all by itself. Way more of a broad basis for taxation; the scale advantage means that the Republic government can pay for a lot more than the CIS realistically can. Again, like the USA in 1861 (the army had been left to rot), 1917 (the army had been left to rot) and 1941 (the army had been le-- are you noticing a pattern here?), the Republic would be able to build up an immense war industry in a staggeringly short time. The numbers themselves really do matter.

For these reasons, I remain quite convinced that even if all the weird peculiarities of the setting are in the way, the Republic is still going to win an all-out brawl with the CIS. It may not be willing to start a war, and seceding without a fuss is actually rather likely to work. But providing a clear casus belli? That's a big mistake. (It fits Palpatine's plan, of course.) Conclusion: it stands to reason that Palpatine was providing the CIS with key strategic information, and undermining the Republic's war effort, all to prop the CIS up as a viable enemy... right up until he didn't need them anymore. And then he dropped them like a hot potato, and they lost the war immediately.

(This also makes infinitely more sense from Palpatine's perspective. Imagine it. Scenario one: Palpatine has two sides fight each other. He controls the weak side, manipulates the strong side to keep it from winning, and then somehow betrays the strong side so that the weak side wins. Now he rules the galaxy, by means of controlling the weak faction that would otherwise have lost. On this weak basis, he plans to establish his own empire. Scenario two: Palpatine has two sides fight each other. He controls the strong side, and keeps it from crushing the weak side, until the weak side has served its purpose. Then he allows the weak side to be crushed. Now he rules the galaxy, by means of controlling the strong faction that was militarily superior anyway. On that strong basis, he plans to establish his own empire. Now... which of these two is the obvious one that an aspiring tyrant would go with? And which is the really dumb one that needlessly weakens his own regime from the start?)

No, you're missing my point. The old maps are (ex)canon, but your analysis from those maps is fanon and rests on the unsupported premise that industrial and military might are strictly proportional to population. This does not override the canon quotes which @Bear Ribs cited, and further goes against the additional fact that we've *seen* that the Republic was highly non-homogenous in military industry, with critical facilities concentrated in single systems and not evenly repeated.
See points two and three, above.
 
Not to mention that in RoTS the Confederacy's main planets are under siege and its political leadership is in hiding. The Battle of Coruscant really does seem like a desperate attempt to quickly resolve the war.
Very reminiscent of the Confederate pipe-dream of taking Washington. (The difference being that it worked here, which is unrealistic on the face of it, but -- again -- becomes credible because Palpatine specifically manipulates things to ensure it works. He arranges his own abduction.)
 
Controversial idea.

Darth Krayt is a misunderstood hero.

He saw three galactic wars and wanted to unite the galaxy through the induction of every being into the Sith order.

He was as Wyyrlok said, a "dreamer".

And he meant it.

He wanted to end the cycle of galactic wars for all time, and institute a new order with everyone a member of the One Sith, with himself as the head.

Much like Caedus and Lumiya, he was a man who acted for the greater good, though Krayt's greater good had admittedly a more selfish outcome.

But his ideal was a selfless one. A united galaxy at last.

He intended to "give power a purpose".
 
I like doing weird shit like that. Usually for inane reasons, like -- in this case -- gathering infor for an article I wanted to write about the topic. The map itself was just temporary (I'd assumed I wouldn't be allowed to post high-quality scans anyway, overlaids or not). But I must have the spreadsheet with the numbers somewhere. (Like I said: inane reasons -- I haven't actually gone though with writing the article. Maybe I should finish that, at long last!)


I agree that this plays into it (and that it's bonkers). I still don't see a way for this to meaningfully affect the course of the war. Three points to support my own reading of things:

-- One: most of the really important planets (in this case, the key industrial worlds) are in or near to the Core, and held by the Republic. This actually makes a lot of sense, sine generally high population & urbanisation go hand-in-hand with industry, whereas the rural hinterland tends to be agricultural and under-industrialised. One would expect the Core to be way more industrialised, and the Rim to be mainly an eploitation region for raw resources (to be processed in and around the Core). The large number of apparently high-population & high-industry worlds in the Core supports that. Granted, there are industrial regions far outside the Core, mainly along the major hyperspace routes, but we certainly do get the impression that the industrial-capitalist heart of the galaxy is very much the Core.

-- Two: even if we assume that the Core merely has its much vaster population, and is not comparatively more industrialised per capita, it still wins because it's so much more densely inhabited. If the galaxy is about evenly industrialised per capita (equality in relative terms), then the more densely inhabited regions will still have way more to bring to any fight in absolute terms. For this to be circumvented, we'd have to assume that the Core is ludicrously under-industrialised, and the Rim ludicrously over-industrialised. That is: we'd have to assume that all those densely populated Core worlds are really mostly rural, and all those sparely populated Rim worlds are really industrial. That's theoretically a legitimate interpretation, but... it makes no sense at all. Rural worlds can't support such vast numbers without becoming urban-industrial by default, and urban-industrial societies only function on the basis of high-density populations.
Despite the population, and facing enemies as feeble as Battledroids, they needed an army of clones to fight. That does not suggest their enormous population was of any use in battle. Otherwise they could simply have asked for volunteers and, as long as 1 per ten-thousand people on Coruscant alone volunteered, they could have handily outnumbered the clone army. Obviously that didn't happen.

-- Three: I'm not willing to accept the above assumption, because it's insane (and contradicts what we've seen of most Core worlds), but let's say for the sake of argument... Then the high population of the Republic is still a huge factor all by itself. Way more of a broad basis for taxation; the scale advantage means that the Republic government can pay for a lot more than the CIS realistically can. Again, like the USA in 1861 (the army had been left to rot), 1917 (the army had been left to rot) and 1941 (the army had been le-- are you noticing a pattern here?), the Republic would be able to build up an immense war industry in a staggeringly short time. The numbers themselves really do matter.
In the Clone Wars episode 11:3 Pursuit of Peace the Banking Clan, with their leader San Hill on the Separatist council, was noted to be lending the Republic money to let them continue to fight in the clone wars. Let me repeat, the Republic was only able to fight because the Separatists they were fighting were bankrolling them.

Incidentally in the same Episode, in a moving speech, Amidala reveals that her personal aide Teckla can't afford electricity and running water. Apparently the Republic is so freaking poor that personal aides to senators living on Coruscant itself don't make enough to keep the lights on and the water flowing.



The bill was also for five million clones, and those five million guys were so expensive the entire Republic was staggered by the cost of them (and had to shut off Teckla's water, because they could either afford her her kids to bathe more often than every 2 weeks or the clones, but not both). It's hard to imagine how they'd afford to leverage their vast population into an army with their inability to pay for anything.

For these reasons, I remain quite convinced that even if all the weird peculiarities of the setting are in the way, the Republic is still going to win an all-out brawl with the CIS. It may not be willing to start a war, and seceding without a fuss is actually rather likely to work. But providing a clear casus belli? That's a big mistake. (It fits Palpatine's plan, of course.) Conclusion: it stands to reason that Palpatine was providing the CIS with key strategic information, and undermining the Republic's war effort, all to prop the CIS up as a viable enemy... right up until he didn't need them anymore. And then he dropped them like a hot potato, and they lost the war immediately.
He pressed a button that turned off all the Battledroids, that's a little different from suggesting they were out-industry'd and outfought by the Core.

(This also makes infinitely more sense from Palpatine's perspective. Imagine it. Scenario one: Palpatine has two sides fight each other. He controls the weak side, manipulates the strong side to keep it from winning, and then somehow betrays the strong side so that the weak side wins. Now he rules the galaxy, by means of controlling the weak faction that would otherwise have lost. On this weak basis, he plans to establish his own empire. Scenario two: Palpatine has two sides fight each other. He controls the strong side, and keeps it from crushing the weak side, until the weak side has served its purpose. Then he allows the weak side to be crushed. Now he rules the galaxy, by means of controlling the strong faction that was militarily superior anyway. On that strong basis, he plans to establish his own empire. Now... which of these two is the obvious one that an aspiring tyrant would go with? And which is the really dumb one that needlessly weakens his own regime from the start?)
Peers suspiciously at Operation: Cinder. I'm not sure Palpatine actually thinks things through that well.

The issue here is that although your feelings are completely correct for any sane universe, Star Wars is only slightly above FASAnomics for a ridiculous lack of anything resembling rational economic and industrial outputs. A million guys is considered a galaxy-conquering force instead of a continent-conquering one, f'rex. Obviously the Doylist reason is because the writers aren't concerned with that in favor of explosions and force lightning, but on the Watsonian level we need to assume that when we're told the Separatists outnumber them 100 to 1, this is actually the case and therefore there's some unknown technology or effect going on that causes their economy industrial output to act out of harmony with our most basic understanding of things.
 
-- Two: even if we assume that the Core merely has its much vaster population, and is not comparatively more industrialised per capita, it still wins because it's so much more densely inhabited. If the galaxy is about evenly industrialised per capita (equality in relative terms), then the more densely inhabited regions will still have way more to bring to any fight in absolute terms. For this to be circumvented, we'd have to assume that the Core is ludicrously under-industrialised, and the Rim ludicrously over-industrialised. That is: we'd have to assume that all those densely populated Core worlds are really mostly rural, and all those sparely populated Rim worlds are really industrial. That's theoretically a legitimate interpretation, but... it makes no sense at all. Rural worlds can't support such vast numbers without becoming urban-industrial by default, and urban-industrial societies only function on the basis of high-density populations.

-- Three: I'm not willing to accept the above assumption, because it's insane (and contradicts what we've seen of most Core worlds), but let's say for the sake of argument... Then the high population of the Republic is still a huge factor all by itself. Way more of a broad basis for taxation; the scale advantage means that the Republic government can pay for a lot more than the CIS realistically can. Again, like the USA in 1861 (the army had been left to rot), 1917 (the army had been left to rot) and 1941 (the army had been le-- are you noticing a pattern here?), the Republic would be able to build up an immense war industry in a staggeringly short time. The numbers themselves really do matter.

The problem with that is that past a certain point, all of that money and population is going to be of limited use. You can throw as much money at kamino as you want, but they can only produce so many clones so quickly, no matter how much you pay them. Ditto KDY and Siener and so on. They only have the faculties to build so many ships/fighters/tanks/etc, and once they hit that cap they are done, no matter how much you pay them. You can't make new shipyards out of money.

Now, with point 3 you're correct in that in the long run, the republic can expand. It can pay for new shipyards, and factories, and an expanded cloning facility, and so on, and eventually out-produce the CIS. Keyword eventually, because building all that new stuff takes time, and the republic is starting out at a disadvantage because they barely had a navy at the start of the war, while the CIS did.
 
Incidentally in the same Episode, in a moving speech, Amidala reveals that her personal aide Teckla can't afford electricity and running water. Apparently the Republic is so freaking poor that personal aides to senators living on Coruscant itself don't make enough to keep the lights on and the water flowing.



The bill was also for five million clones, and those five million guys were so expensive the entire Republic was staggered by the cost of them (and had to shut off Teckla's water, because they could either afford her her kids to bathe more often than every 2 weeks or the clones, but not both). It's hard to imagine how they'd afford to leverage their vast population into an army with their inability to pay for anything.

Honestly I think the Republic didn't have any form of taxes outside the ones on trade. It's the only explanation why all the sudden when the war happened and trade inevitably took a hit as a result the Republic took a serious fiscal hit and due to the unpopularity of having to raise taxes it couldn't say make a 1% income tax to pay for the war.
 
Honestly I think the Republic didn't have any form of taxes outside the ones on trade. It's the only explanation why all the sudden when the war happened and trade inevitably took a hit as a result the Republic took a serious fiscal hit and due to the unpopularity of having to raise taxes it couldn't say make a 1% income tax to pay for the war.
They at least had some sort of income tax, because the Republic Tax Collection Agency went after a sports star after an endorsement deal. Though that makes sense otherwise.

My pet theory is that the Trade Federation was actually handling a solid 75% or more of interstellar trade, so without them the entire economy crashed because there was nobody with anything bigger than the Millenium Falcon hauling goods anymore and you couldn't get enough supplies on tramp freighters to handle things. Imagine Wal-Mart if Mersk suddenly went on strike and instead of those immense container ships all their goods had to come from China in a Handysize.
 
FTFY.

Yeah lets drag the Republic into a war with the Hutts and maybe tell them that we're at war with them in only a de facto sense, not the de jure sense. :devilish:

The Hutts who its worth noting were never truly defeated by any civilization in the SWU.

The Vong came the closest and even then it only set them back a few centuries.

Starting shit with the Hutts on a large scale seems like a good way to stop being relevant.
 
The Hutts backed the Confederation in the SGCW, with rather limited support and that was enough to trigger panic about Hutt remilitarization. And the Hutts had not waged war in 15,000 years.

That is how much the Hutts are feared. How deep in the galaxy’s psyche fear of the Hutts really is.

The Vong thrashed them, but the Hutts fought tenaciously, and their worlds seemed resistant to vong forming.

The Hutts have:

-crushed the SW version of Alexander the Great
-Managed to trick three species into everlasting slavery
-retained their independence
-have conducted genocides on species that rebelled against them.
-wield extraordinary economic power and latent military potential-both in their slave soldiers, hired mercenaries and pirates, Xim’s war droids, and whatever else they have in the depths of their territory. Bio weapons, ship production, and hidden industry.

We see with the Hapans that small rich powers can punch above their weight, and the Hutts are much much richer than the Hapans.

The galaxy would quake in terror if the Hutts ever rejected the philosophy of kajidic and chose to return to their ancient ways of conquest.

Hutts live a thousand years, and do not have the same moral compass that a lot of the galaxy does. Genocide and swindling species into slavery is just cost management to win as far as the Hutts are concerned.
 
Honestly having the Death Stars and all the Star Dreadnoughts built by the Emprie make a lot more sense when ole Palpatine really wants to have complete control of everything including Hutt space which ironically would massively improve the governance of said area for everyone who isn't a Hutt
 

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