Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
So, I’ve been dreaming up an AU in which both Luke and Leia are captured and raised by Darth Vader as his Sith apprentices. This idea has, of course, been tried before, but I thought to flesh out how the twins develop in a unique way that, as far as I know, others haven’t done yet. To start, I’m thinking of first chronicling their adventures when they’re maybe thirteen to sixteen years old, meaning that I focus more on their teenage years as their father’s Force-adept agents for when frontline troops, Imperial intelligence and normal Dark Side adepts like the Inquisitors aren’t enough. To that end, I imagine that as the Skywalker twins, their sheer Force potential combined with Vader’s nearly no-holds-hard training methods would make them Jedi Council-tier warriors at the least—both in terms of martial skill and Force power.

Regarding the first, Luke would probably specialize in Forms I, IV and V—Shii-Cho, Ataru, and Shien/Djem So respectively. When facing enemy duelists, he’d either attempt to smash through their defenses or get in close to shunt and smack their blade(s) out of the way so that he can score hits. Fast transitions to other styles, such as the acrobatics of Ataru, would mitigate Djem So’s comparative immobility, while using Shien would provide a means of deflecting and ricocheting blaster bolts back at desired targets. In practice, it'd somewhat resemble Anakin Skywalker's fighting style, albeit more coarse and a notch less bold, but more prone to applying level-headed tactical sensibility when not bogged down in in-your-face blade-bashing. Though he and his sister would carry a variable, mission-dictated arsenal with them wherever they go, Luke should wield an orange-bladed lightsaber whose hilt resembles an interesting cross between his father's and that of Obi-Wan Kenobi's, however hard that may be to visualize without an actual, you know, artistic depiction on hand (which I'll probably post shortly after I figure out how to set up a DeviantArt account. And learn how to do digital art at all, for that matter).

Leia, on the other hand, would favor Forms II, III and VI—Makashi, Soresu and Niman respectively. Her sequences would consist of precise cuts and active defense that slaps aside incoming attacks, but overcomes Makashi's single opponent-centric focus vía twirling around the battlefield and speedy transitions to other forms like Soresu for dedicated anti-projectile defense, and Niman for its generalist practicality and skillful integration of Force attacks into her blade work. Visually speaking, Leia’s style would be more dynamic and "liberal" than the purist Makashi upheld by Dooku, but a tad less acrobatic and elaborate than the Makashi/Ataru hybrid crafted by Shaak Ti. To that end, she'd carry a purple-bladed saber that looks rather like a more delicate version of Darth Nihilus's lightsaber, albeit thinner to accommodate her smaller hands. Otherwise, Leia will arm up for whatever mission she's assigned to just like her brother, and won't be above using blasters, explosives, and other 'less civilized' killing tools as long as they get the job done.

Concerning their Force abilities, I haven’t thought much about those apart from them both possessing standard powers like telekinesis, telepathy and Force-based physical augmentation, albeit to far more extreme levels than most Jedi or Sith (due to their unmatched Force-sensitive heritage). Force Lightning is certainly on the table for both of them, albeit with Leia being more dexterous and creative in her application than Luke. On the flip side, Luke will probably have mastered niche abilities like Mechu-deru to a greater extent than his sister, a nod to an aptitude with machines that he'd also share with his OTL counterpart.

However, I'm also thinking that neither of them will be super dedicated to the Imperial cause or as emotionally invested in the ways of the Sith as their father, so much as being rather apathetic and tending to live in the moment so that with luck, they'll simply live to see another day. So while both would technically be darksiders by virtue of their allegiances--with Luke being more prone to recklessness and letting his temper flare in the heat of the moment, while Leia's more diplomatic and level-headed but becomes a sight to behold when pushed hard enough--they'd be a great deal more...reasonable than your average Sith, for lack of a better word.

That's all I have for now, though; thus far, I've written no snippets and made no sketches of them. Oh, other than that--as per usual--it'll be set in a continuity that combines elements of Canon and Legends alike, though exactly what I'll borrow and what I'll eschew is yet to be determined.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
“The republic doesn’t exist out here” Tatooine is not in the republic at all.

Shmi is clearly talking about de facto, not de jure -- she's a slave, not a lawyer. Tatooine is explicitly defined in Legends canon as being part of the Arkanis Sector of the Outer Rim Territories of the Republic, neighboring but not a part of Hutt Space; Disney canon has no explicit statement.
 

Arch Dornan

Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Kiwis saved a clip of the never released Star Wars Detours that quickly got shut down by Disney. Check it out if you like.
 
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Deleted member 88

Guest
Shmi is clearly talking about de facto, not de jure -- she's a slave, not a lawyer. Tatooine is explicitly defined in Legends canon as being part of the Arkanis Sector of the Outer Rim Territories of the Republic, neighboring but not a part of Hutt Space; Disney canon has no explicit statement.
I'd have to check, your probably right.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
I'd have to check, your probably right.

It just really struck me, especially on rewatching TPM as an adult, that Qui-Gon is remarkably callous and blase about slavery; when he's told that the Republic's anti-slavery laws aren't worth the paper they're written on, he doesn't express so much as one word of sympathy over it; moreover, he is downright ruthless in taking advantage of Anakin's kindness and generosity without offering him any help in return, even though Anakin is literally an innocent child risking his life to help them.
 
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Deleted member 88

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Well he did have a planet to liberate. That said, the Jedi even Qui Gon have somewhat more stoic attitudes about galactic problems-its not that Qui Gon is indifferent, so much as as a trained Jedi, he's not going to gush with emotion over Anakin's situation.

"There is no emotion, there is peace".

Means sometimes your going to adopt an attitude that isn't particularly empathetic.
 

Bear Ribs

Well-known member
It seems somewhat odd to me that the official word is that Tatooine is a Republic, not a Hutt, world. It doesn't follow Republic law, has a Hutt Ruler, and uses Hutt currency and Republic credits aren't accepted, period. I'm reminded of the bit in Wheel of Time where they comment that Emond's Field is part of such and such a Kingdom because somebody drew a line on a map, but nobody in the field pays taxes, has met anybody from said Kingdom, or considers themselves to be member of said kingdom.
 
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Deleted member 88

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I suppose given the lack of a republic army, and its own rot, it can't be bothered to enforce its writ. Tatooine is for all intents and purposes part of Hutt space though.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
Well he did have a planet to liberate. That said, the Jedi even Qui Gon have somewhat more stoic attitudes about galactic problems-its not that Qui Gon is indifferent, so much as as a trained Jedi, he's not going to gush with emotion over Anakin's situation.

"There is no emotion, there is peace".

Means sometimes your going to adopt an attitude that isn't particularly empathetic.

He seemed empathic enough to normal moviegoers.

Not ones who obsess over de jure and de facto jargon about whatever it was we're talking about. :p
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Well he did have a planet to liberate. That said, the Jedi even Qui Gon have somewhat more stoic attitudes about galactic problems-its not that Qui Gon is indifferent, so much as as a trained Jedi, he's not going to gush with emotion over Anakin's situation.

Liberating Naboo wasn't his mission, though -- his mission was only to be a neutral mediator between the Naboo and the Federation. Qui-Gon was willing to take it upon himself to help the rich and important Nubians without any official mission to do so regardless of the political consequences out of compassion and empathy but did not extent any of the same compassion and empathy towards helping poor and unimportant Tatooine slaves.

This never gets resolved because the movie plotline took us elsewhere, but I don't imagine there weren't political consequences to the Jedi breaking from their neutral mediator role and overtly siding with Naboo against the Federation.

Indeed, I would say that some of those consequences are implied by the later movie line about the Trade Federation not being punished for the events of TPM even after four trials in the Senate -- it's clear that the Senate trials are repeatedly deadlocking because of the lack of any neutral party giving evidence. Because the Jedi blatantly sided with the Nubians, their testimony about what happened is no longer neutral and credible.

I suppose given the lack of a republic army, and its own rot, it can't be bothered to enforce its writ. Tatooine is for all intents and purposes part of Hutt space though.

I believe it was outright stated that this is why the Hutts did not officially object to the Republic's expansion into the Outer Rim; they simply made sure that they continued to have economic and practical control over the Outer Rim systems bordering Hutt Space.
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member
Liberating Naboo wasn't his mission, though -- his mission was only to be a neutral mediator between the Naboo and the Federation.

I have to contest this. Qui-Gon wasn’t on an official mission to mediate things from the council, he was going as a personal favor to Chancellor Valorum because palpatine was using his sideous connections to stall any attempt to request mediation in the senate.

Everyone involved at the start of TPM expected Qui-Gon’s stance to be that the Federation had to cut this shit out: both the Naboo and the Federation’s ranking members at the scene. His official mission statement may have been negotiations, but the Jedi were absolutely there to remove the Federation from Naboo.
 

Earl

Well-known member
This never gets resolved because the movie plotline took us elsewhere, but I don't imagine there weren't political consequences to the Jedi breaking from their neutral mediator role and overtly siding with Naboo against the Federation.
Might have something to do with how the Trade Federation ovbuiously tried to kill them and then immediately broke the laws completely with a invasion
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Might have something to do with how the Trade Federation ovbuiously tried to kill them and then immediately broke the laws completely with a invasion

You'll note that I didn't say that the Jedi did anything *wrong*. I said that the multiple failed trials were a consequence of their actions, because it meant they're no longer impartial witnesses.

"The impeccably neutral Jedi Knights have testified that you tried to kill them and then launched an unprovoked invasion of the planet. Their testimony is irrefutable. GUILTY!"

Palpatine probably had alternative plans prepared for every plausible outcome of the invasion, so that really wouldn't have slowed him down much. But that's not my point. My point is that the Jedi weren't bound by a narrow mission mandate and had nearly unlimited authority to do as they see fit. They didn't rescue the slaves at that time *or* at any point later on because they didn't think it was important enough to be worthy of Jedi intervention, simple as that.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
I believe it was outright stated that this is why the Hutts did not officially object to the Republic's expansion into the Outer Rim; they simply made sure that they continued to have economic and practical control over the Outer Rim systems bordering Hutt Space.

Kinda hard to enforce your authority with no navy or formal military; the NR of course in canon outright refused to learn from this mistake.

BTW, were the Separatists really that much in the wrong for wanting to leave the Republic?
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
They didn't rescue the slaves at that time *or* at any point later on because they didn't think it was stupid enough to be worthy of Jedi intervention, simple as that.

FTFY.

Yeah lets drag the Republic into a war with the Hutts and maybe tell them that we're at war with them in only a de facto sense, not the de jure sense. :devilish:
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
BTW, were the Separatists really that much in the wrong for wanting to leave the Republic?

It's interesting. The main reason there was a war (obviously due to Palpatines machinations) was kind of because in a direct sense, the Separatists decided that publicly murdering a pair of Jedi and a Republic Senator in a public setting seemed like a good idea. Now obviously there were other things as well, Obi Wan was captured because he was snooping around there and got captured, then Anakin and Padme showed up and killed more then a few Geonosians in their rescue attempt. So lets have a public execution in an arena then. So naturally the Jedi showed up in force... and then the Separatists showed up with their droids and then the Republic shows up with their Clone Army and then hilarity ensues.

If there wasn't a case of Palpatine manipulating everything to work out that way, there isn't really a reason to prevent the Separatists from leaving the Republic in all honesty (beyond trying to repeatedly assassinate Republic Senators of course). And while massing a Droid army/fleet is disconcerting, that just means investing more in a Clone Army (or Old Republic standing military in general) is a good idea.

But alas, you can't really have one without the other it seems. Would there be a critical mass approaching that of the Separatist movement without Palpatine's machinations? Perhaps... all of the Separatist leaders seemed to have strong ideas on leaving the Republic and forming their own primarily economically fueled interests.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
BTW, were the Separatists really that much in the wrong for wanting to leave the Republic?
The leadership was obviously corrupt from the start, and had hidden motives, but the populace of the seceding worlds -- who formed the rank and file of the movement -- were doing it with good intentions. The Republic really was corrupt and failing at that time. Why wouldn't they want to go their own way and solve their own problems?

nope. Funny enough it would have been interesting to see a legit separtist movment led by a good aligned dooku.
I have suggested that as a possible outcome of Plagueis catching on to Palpatine's plan to murder him at the eleventh hour, striking back, and the two killing each other. Sith line ended! But the Republic is still screwed. The most probably outcome, in my opinion:

The do-nothing establishment retains control, and another weak (or corrupt) Chancellor is put in place. The Republic proceeds to degenerate, and the opposition to this will grow. Eventually, Count Dooku, an avid critic of the corrupt government long before even 32 BBY, will presumably become the leader of the opposition movement. Note that Dooku wasn't as anti-centralist as he pretended to be as leader of the CIS. He played that up when his role was to oppose the "centralist would-be dictator Palpatine"... but he was actually in league with Palpatine. So Dooku's opposition movement doesn't have to be an anti-centralist, quasi-libertarian secession movement here. He can lead a broader coalition against the corrupt government. In fact, since the corrupt government is mainly owned by the megacorps, Dooku's side will be fighting against them, here! Since the plutocrats have no intention of surrendering power, we may expect this outcome to lead to a civil war. Dooku versus the plutocrats.

The key thing is that the plutocrats were willing to secede precisely because certain politicians were threatening to end their exorbitant privileges. Politicians like Palpatine. If Palpatine gets offed, and they can put another stooge in power... they won't secede. But that may then lead the anti-plutocrat reformers to secede, instead. And since Dooku started out as such a reformer, and since Palpatine's absence means he doesn't become a Sith... you could easily see Dooku leading an anti-plutocratic alt-CIS against a plutocrat-governed Republic.
 

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