Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

Navarro

Well-known member
The FO is extremely inconsistent.

Its the biggest threat evarr!, basically Nazis in Argentina/Antarctica with super tech, or its just an edgier empire LARP.

It is neither intimidating nor does it comment on neofascist movements in a particularly interesting or compelling way either. It tries to argue, "this isn't supposed to be intimidating, its just kids pretending to be villains", and then "they've taken over the galaxy how will our heroes win?"

Hux is so hammy I outright cringed in theatres, and Phasma is lame and boring.

I would take Waru any day over this joke of an antagonist.

The OT could afford to show the viewers how the Empire was evil and to present it as intimidating. In the new paranoid cultural zeitgeist, where people freak out about stormtrooper Halloween costumes and cosplay, the ST couldn't.
 
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Deleted member 88

Guest
The OT could afford to show the viewers how the Empire was evil and to present it as intimidating. In the new paranoid cultural zeitgeist, where people freak out about stormtrooper Halloween costumes and cosplay, the ST coulden't.
I kid you not, I read on SV once they said fascist villains should be intentionally presented as weak and pathetic, because young men might be attracted to cool bad guys with a fascist aesthetic.

Its insane.
 

Skallagrim

Well-known member
I would argue that the New Republic of the old EU was only successful at remaining in power as a strong, centralized government through extensive offscreen act-of-plotium, whereas the "more basket case" New Republic of the new Disney Canon is more realistically limited. If nothing else, the New Republic was supposed to be restoring the Old Republic, which was substantially less centralized than the Empire; but the political aspects of the Republic were always largely offscreen so we never actually see this divestment of power.

Edit: If you go with a "cynically realistic" take on the EU, you can say that the New Republic tacitly never actually divesting the centralized powers of the Empire was a huge part of why Garm Bel Iblis canonically remained estranged from it, over and above his canonical distrust of Mon Mothma. It always annoyed me that this was never really properly addressed in the EU.
The fundamental assumption here is simply not correct. While a lot of EU book & stuff simply glossed over all the politics, we did get some explicit facts -- and those prove the opposite of what you state here. See, for instance, the fact that the New Republic's charter grants each member world the inalienable right to unilateral secession. Basically: you can vote to leave the NR if it no longer pleases you, and they're not allowed to prevent you from doing so. This automatically means that centralism is completely impossible (because the countless worlds opposed to it would secede at once).

Similarly, the whole thing with Bel Iblis was that he assumed Mon Mothma would be a centralising figure as soon as she got into power. She actually wasn't, and that's explicitly stated. The reason they didn't reconcile was wounded pride. Once they were brought back together, they got over it and became allies. Bel Iblis even admitted that he'd been wrong about Mon Monthma's intentions.

As a matter of fact, the New Republic being decentralist is a big through-line in the post-Endor EU. Some problems (the difficulty in funding certain fleet programmes) stem directly from it. The NR has typical "loose confederation" problems; not typical "centralising despotism" problems.

Until, of course, a centralising despot seizes power. And it goes wrong at once. I consider Denning a rather poor writer, but the idea of a secession movement in response to a leader who begins serious centralisation efforts was realistic. The execution of that idea wasn't good. But the point is: the NR wasn't centralist, but rather very much decentralist, and that's why it worked. As soon as a centralising leader took over (Caedus), things ceased to work.

The NR was strong and effective despite functionally being a very loose confederation, because its initial leaders knew which tasks to centralise, and were capable enough to get most everyone to agree. In practice, that means: the central government needs a good fleet to make sure peace is maintained. Meanwhile, almost all 'domestic' affairs were just handled locally. The New Republic really is just the Old Republic, but with a strong military (whose existence is justified by recent memory of war) and a bit more of a focus on guaranteed rights. They do have a charter outlining the rights of all sentients, and slavery and stuff like that is illegal.

But....

But the bigger unaddressed issue, in both the EU and the new canon, is that the Outer Rim systems *still aren't represented* in any meaningful way among the leadership cadre of the Alliance/New Republic. The New Republic is really just begging for a repeat of the Separatist Crisis since they restored the Republic without ever *actually addressing the legitimate complaints of the outer worlds*.
...the problem is that the NR's commitment to universal rights is a bit symbolic, because of the aforementioned right to secession. Yes, member worlds have to abide by fundamental principles. If they break these, they can be sanctioned. But, well... if they want to avoid that, they can just secede. So the only thing keeping worlds in line is the threat that if they leave (or are kicked out) because they are (for instance) dicking slavocrats, they won't have free access to the Republic's common market anymore.

Granted, the republic is huge, so can afford to impose major tariffs on outsiders. Result: there's a big economic incentive to join and stay joined. Which means: no violations of sentient rights allowed.

Counter-point: because the Republic is so decentralised, there's no effective policing, so -- yes -- the Outer Rim is still quite "lawless". (As frontier regions always are.)

But the bottom line is that the New Republic really is "an improved version" of the Old Republic. They're not perfect, but they're doing their best.

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A generation of war and fighting may not exactly be the best suited to the light side...
Very well suited to interesting narratives, though.

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No; I'm betting they'll just have a new resistance fighting a Second Order, then another resistance fighting a Third Order, and so on and so forth until the end of time. Stop trying to apply logic to the sequels; because the people who made them clearly never did.
Darth Mickey reigns supreme!

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I kid you not, I read on SV once they said fascist villains should be intentionally presented as weak and pathetic, because young men might be attracted to cool bad guys with a fascist aesthetic.

Its insane.
Whenever political messaging is prioritised over telling a good story, the result is pure crap. You can put politics into a good story, at times, but before all else: the story must be good. If that hurts the political messaging... the screw the politics, and tell the story.

If you want to soap-box instead... write a pamphlet, not a story.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
I kid you not, I read on SV once they said fascist villains should be intentionally presented as weak and pathetic, because young men might be attracted to cool bad guys with a fascist aesthetic.

Its insane.

Clearly the actual guys behind the ST disagreed, as shown by their replacement of Hux with a more dignified Tarkin stand-in and replacing their Palpatine knockoff with the OG.
 
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DarthOne

☦️
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I kid you not, I read on SV once they said fascist villains should be intentionally presented as weak and pathetic, because young men might be attracted to cool bad guys with a fascist aesthetic.

Its insane.


present them as weak and pathetic and people will just shake there heads on how a cook looking concept was waisted *Cough cough Phasma* people in genral are attracted to cool aesthetics regardless of the aligment of the people themselves. Maybe hollywood needs to stop making the good guys look weak and pathetic.
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Blaming the Jedi for the Sith seems like a non-starter.

The Sith are literally a splinter sect of the Jedi. The Jedi created the Sith, and due to the flaws in Jedi philosophy, the Jedi *continue* to create both 'true' Sith and Fallen Jedi on a regular basis, while also suppressing any rival Force user sect which might have a healthier perspective on the Force. The Jedi belief that, "all Force users must be forced to follow the Jedi Way or they will inevitably fall to the Dark Side" is belied by the truth that, "the overwhelming majority of Dark Siders, including all of the actual Sith, originate from the Jedi".

The Jedi are a monastic sect of superhuman warriors who have thankfully been dedicated to peace and being apolitical for most of its existence. The galaxy should be thankful for their existence and general ethos and legacy.

Not true. The Jedi have never actually been apolitical, and if you stick to the old EU, in the centuries leading up to the Rusaan Reformation, had literally shoved the Republic aside and taken over entire sectors where the 'Jedi Lords' ruled as benevolent tyrants.
 

Urabrask Revealed

Let them go.
Founder
I kid you not, I read on SV once they said fascist villains should be intentionally presented as weak and pathetic, because young men might be attracted to cool bad guys with a fascist aesthetic.

Its insane.
Of course they do. They know their ideology and ideas are so lame, they need to make alternative ideologies even worse so people don't get ideas.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
present them as weak and pathetic and people will just shake there heads on how a cook looking concept was waisted *Cough cough Phasma* people in genral are attracted to cool aesthetics regardless of the aligment of the people themselves. Maybe hollywood needs to stop making the good guys look weak and pathetic.

The issue is that they've come to believe that being strong and confident is an evil in of itself. They no longer believe in any form of legitimate authority.

I kid you not, I read on SV once they said fascist villains should be intentionally presented as weak and pathetic, because young men might be attracted to cool bad guys with a fascist aesthetic.

God, that's showing a level of cultural paranoia and lack of self-confidence that's beyond anything. So what if some kids and adolescents think the bad guys look cool?
 
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Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
The issue is that they've come to believe that being strong and confident is an evil in of itself. They no longer believe in any form of legitimate authority.



God, that's showing a level of cultural paranoia and lack of self-confidence that's beyond anything. So what if some kids and adolescents think the bad guys look cool?
They will be bad guys! They will grow up to be facists like Trump!!!!
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Not to mention that they got suckered into the Clone Wars because they conflated the Republic's political interests with the will of the Force.

The corruption of the Jedi Order itself is clearly seen even before the Clone Wars. If you step back and consider what actually happens in the Phantom Menace, the Jedi are willing to *completely exceed* their official mandate in helping the Nubians because they're an politically influential planet which the Chancellor favors, but when it comes to slaves on politically unimportant Tatooine, the Jedi can't be bothered to lift a finger. It's not even a, "We'll come back when we can.", it's "Slavery is a blatant violation of Republic law, but since the Senate doesn't seem to care, we don't either."
 
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Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
The corruption of the Jedi Order itself is clearly seen even before the Clone Wars. If you step back and consider what actually happens in the Phantom Menace, the Jedi are willing to *completely exceed* their official mandate in helping the Nubians because they're an politically influential planet which the Chancellor favors, but when it comes to slaves on politically unimportant Tatooine, the Jedi can't be bothered to lift a finger. It's not even a, "We'll come back when we can.", it's "Slavery is a blatant violation of Republic law, but since the Senate doesn't seem to care, we don't either."

Isn't Tatooine in the Hutt Sphere of control and explicitly outside of the Republic while the Trade Federation and Naboo are both actual represented members in the Republic amd Senate?

If corruption is the Jedi refusing to drag the Republic into an Anti-Slavery Crusade against foreign policies then... 🤷‍♀️
 

ShadowArxxy

Well-known member
Comrade
Isn't Tatooine in the Hutt Sphere of control and explicitly outside of the Republic while the Trade Federation and Naboo are both actual represented members in the Republic amd Senate?

No. Tatooine is explicitly a Republic system that merely borders the "Hutt Space" region where the Hutts are actually the recognized sovereign government; the Hutts have de facto control over Tatooine, but it's still a de jure Republic system. That's why the Jedi were trying to spend Republic credits as opposed to going to a bank to exchange for Hutt currency, to the point where they felt it was ethical to try to use the Force to *compel* Watto to take Republic money.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
No. Tatooine is explicitly a Republic system that merely borders the "Hutt Space" region where the Hutts are actually the recognized sovereign government; the Hutts have de facto control over Tatooine, but it's still a de jure Republic system. That's why the Jedi were trying to spend Republic credits as opposed to going to a bank to exchange for Hutt currency, to the point where they felt it was ethical to try to use the Force to *compel* Watto to take Republic money.

That didn't come across in the film. Where in Disney canon does it state Tatooine is in the Republic? Because spending foreign currency doesn't mean squat. What your stating about bank currency values is literally just your assumption. If a currency exchange was the problem then they'd go to a bank lol.

The fact Tatooine is not in the Republic is reinforced in the Clone Wars during the rescue mission. And according to the Ultimate Star Wars sourceboom its the Hutts that control the trade and tariffs policy along with actually ruling the planet.

Listen even if what you say is true it doesn't substantively change what I said. Hutts rule. It's not indicative of corruption that the Jedi don't drag the Republic into an Anti slavery Crusade against the Hutts regardless of who thinks they own the area.
 
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Typhonis

Well-known member
I always saw the Force as neutral. It is neither good nor evil. It was people's emotions that decided things for them. IRL People go on power trips. This is a fact. Power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely. you have the power to read minds, to bend them to your will. To bring justice and order or be a psychotic A hole power tripping? It's going to happen. The dark side is your own nature.

Unless...the Force is like the Warp and all of the minds of countless generations have influenced it so that now there is a Light Side and a Dark Side to the Force.
 

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