Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

Well, if TCW Season 7 had gone as originally planned, we would have gotten:
- Vong Scout arc, with Vong not being Force-blind/Force-transparent as in Legends, and kinda as another type of Force user.
- Ahsoka's Walkabout, which we did get but with a lot of reworking to change it from a male 'interest' of Ahsoka's to Raffi and Trace.
- Cyrstal Heist Arc, which would have gone to Utapau and involved a rather lot of comedy/hijinks
- Bounty Hunter Arc, where the orginal Fett vs Bane duel was supposed to happen.
- An arc about the old Sith temple/dark side nexus under the Jedi Temple being rediscovered by Ahsoka and others investigation weird happening at the Temple
- A final Ventress Arc, with her falling in love with Quinlan Vos and eventually sacrificing herself to save him, before being buried on Dathomir with the Jedi Council in attendance.

Thanks. I’ve heard about most of these in passing before, but so long as you’re listing them, I’ve had liked to see them broadcast.

I’m aware Ventress’s arc was adapted into Dark Disciple, but I think we can agree that a token novel’s not the same as full, animated episodes that we’ll never see on screen now. Nor would as many fans know about it as if it were animated, since secondary Star Wars media’s not as well-known as the movies or shows are. :cautious:
 
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Who else here did that as a kid? I know I did! :p
 

Look, I don't mind a diversity hire if the diversity hire can perform the bare minimum. That woman was competing with the kid that played Leia for worst actor in the show. Her performance was stilted, flat, and incredibly threadbare. If the dude in prosthetic makeup is emoting better than you, its time to do something else.

I'm just depressed that I could predict everything that was going to be wrong with Kenobi like it was a bingo card. Did the writers go on strike and get scabbed by the diversity and inclusion officers?
 
Look, I don't mind a diversity hire if the diversity hire can perform the bare minimum. That woman was competing with the kid that played Leia for worst actor in the show. Her performance was stilted, flat, and incredibly threadbare. If the dude in prosthetic makeup is emoting better than you, its time to do something else.

I'm just depressed that I could predict everything that was going to be wrong with Kenobi like it was a bingo card. Did the writers go on strike and get scabbed by the diversity and inclusion officers?
Well at least we can look forward to the Bad Batch later this summer.
 
In-universe counterfactual: after escaping from Florum by the skin of their teeth, Maul and Savage are left to drift helplessly in the void in their dingy escape pod, rendered unconscious and now at death’s door.

However, whereas Pre Vizsla rescued them and Death Watch forged an alliance with the brothers IOTL, he overlooks them here, simply passing by and leaving the two to die, forgotten and alone. With the brothers dead and the Shadow Collective butterflied, how does galactic history proceed ITTL?
 
In-universe counterfactual: after escaping from Florum by the skin of their teeth, Maul and Savage are left to drift helplessly in the void in their dingy escape pod, rendered unconscious and now at death’s door.

However, whereas Pre Vizsla rescued them and Death Watch forged an alliance with the brothers IOTL, he overlooks them here, simply passing by and leaving the two to die, forgotten and alone. With the brothers dead and the Shadow Collective butterflied, how does galactic history proceed ITTL?
Maul is just a bit player in the grand scheme of things. His brother is barely that. I don't think their absence really changs anything about the way everything turns out, although random chance will lead to some different people dying and surviving, respectively. (Note that I can only really treat TCW as part of the Disney canon, into which it's been adopted. I never really consider it as part of the old EU.)


-- In general, Maul's shenanigans during the tail end of the Clone Wars ended up as a fairly minor distraction to the story's heroes (e.g. Obi-Wan and Ahsoka) and its villains (e.g. Palpatine and Doku), and to both the Republic and the CIS. Which means that if the brothers die in their pod, the net result cancels out, pretty much.

-- Without Maul, the Death Watch remains undivided, but also unsuccessful. He took control over a bunch of criminal organisations and used them in the campaign to allow Death Watch to seize power. Without him, Death Watch remains a thorn in the side of the Mandalorian government, but will presumably be unable to seize power. (On the plus side for them, their leader isn't killed, so they continue to exist as a cohesive entity.)

-- Without the Shadow Collective, the existing criminal organisations continue to exist. Within any given context, organised crime takes up as much "room" as it can (in that respect its tendency towards growth is very similar to that of... government). This suggests that although the internal power dynamics will be different, the criminal underworld will be just as powerful, and will still profit in the same way from first the Clone Wars and then the inherently corrupt nature of the Empire.

-- The absence of the Shadow Collective prevents the situation that led Ahsoka back to Mandalore from ever occurring. Ahsoka doesn't lead Republic forces again, and doesn't fight alongside Bo-Katan, so they don't uddenly become all buddy-buddy and just remain enemies. Remaining in the underworld as a lone wolf character, Ahsoka presumably survives the events of Order 66 with greater ease, although this means Rex won't escape the effects of the mind control chip.

-- Maul isn't around to murder Satine Kryze. She seems as unlikely to really join the Empire as Bo-Katan, but she might be more like Bail Organa in just being all pacifist. This would make Mandalore less of a threat; if Palpatine just let Bail stay in charge of Alderaan for two decades, I don't see him randomly removing Satine from power, either. After all, it would presumably allow Death Watch to take charge, and they're actually less predictable!

-- Which means no carpet-nuking of Mandalore, while Death Watch remains as a united organisation... that may actually end up as an uneasy co-belligerent of the Rebels. (This earns the various splinter cells, such as the one that ends up taking in Din Djarin, won't come to exist. Most probably, Din is killed as a child. Or otherwise, he's raised by Death Watch itself.)

-- It also means Obi-Wan has a place to go to, which he might do. He might actually take Luke to Mandalore and hide him there. Remember, it's established that in Disney canon, Obi-Wan has no idea Anakin has survived until years later. And Anakin is the only one who might know about his connection to Satine, so going to Mandalore if Satine is still in charge there may seem like a smart move. (Ironically, the fact that Anakin is alive changes nothing, because Anakin would be utterly incapable of grasping that Obi-Wan might do this. Anakin won't even think to look whether Obi-Wan is hiding with Satine.)


Things only really start to change once you get later on in the story. Without the Shadow Collective, Crimson Dawn remains a second-rate organisation, so the events of Solo will certainly be prevented or at least play out differently. Maul won't be around to play the role he did in Rebels, either, which at the very least means he doesn't blind Kanan. I think events in that series broadly turn out the same way without him, but I'm not sure about that. (And if we assume that Obi-Wan finds a place of hiding for himself and Luke on Mandalore rather than Tatooine, this obviously changes the events of ANH rather dramatically. But that's more of an interesting possibility to entertain.)
 
Would Obi-Wan go full Mandolorian, then? New name, a new identity with him only alerting Bail where he was for an emergency? Then Satine raising Luke as a Mandalorian child?
 
Probably.

I mean... I bet several people have written that exact fanfic already.

Probably, LOL. :p

Anyway, thanks for the TL outline. Was aware that killing Maul and Savage early wouldn’t alter the general “shape” of galactic history much—as far as the scope of Canon is concerned, at least—but because of how different it’d be for the characters of TCW, I was interested in what might happen, anyway.

However, I’d imagine that as more time passes, the more changes compound, meaning that—similar to what we discussed in the Unrecognizable PODs thread—ATL Galaxy would look a great deal different in a thousand years’ time, for example. We can’t extrapolate divergences quite that far, of course, but still a possibility worth considering, I think.
 
Maul is just a bit player in the grand scheme of things. His brother is barely that. I don't think their absence really changs anything about the way everything turns out, although random chance will lead to some different people dying and surviving, respectively. (Note that I can only really treat TCW as part of the Disney canon, into which it's been adopted. I never really consider it as part of the old EU.)


-- In general, Maul's shenanigans during the tail end of the Clone Wars ended up as a fairly minor distraction to the story's heroes (e.g. Obi-Wan and Ahsoka) and its villains (e.g. Palpatine and Doku), and to both the Republic and the CIS. Which means that if the brothers die in their pod, the net result cancels out, pretty much.

-- Without Maul, the Death Watch remains undivided, but also unsuccessful. He took control over a bunch of criminal organisations and used them in the campaign to allow Death Watch to seize power. Without him, Death Watch remains a thorn in the side of the Mandalorian government, but will presumably be unable to seize power. (On the plus side for them, their leader isn't killed, so they continue to exist as a cohesive entity.)

-- Without the Shadow Collective, the existing criminal organisations continue to exist. Within any given context, organised crime takes up as much "room" as it can (in that respect its tendency towards growth is very similar to that of... government). This suggests that although the internal power dynamics will be different, the criminal underworld will be just as powerful, and will still profit in the same way from first the Clone Wars and then the inherently corrupt nature of the Empire.

-- The absence of the Shadow Collective prevents the situation that led Ahsoka back to Mandalore from ever occurring. Ahsoka doesn't lead Republic forces again, and doesn't fight alongside Bo-Katan, so they don't uddenly become all buddy-buddy and just remain enemies. Remaining in the underworld as a lone wolf character, Ahsoka presumably survives the events of Order 66 with greater ease, although this means Rex won't escape the effects of the mind control chip.

-- Maul isn't around to murder Satine Kryze. She seems as unlikely to really join the Empire as Bo-Katan, but she might be more like Bail Organa in just being all pacifist. This would make Mandalore less of a threat; if Palpatine just let Bail stay in charge of Alderaan for two decades, I don't see him randomly removing Satine from power, either. After all, it would presumably allow Death Watch to take charge, and they're actually less predictable!

-- Which means no carpet-nuking of Mandalore, while Death Watch remains as a united organisation... that may actually end up as an uneasy co-belligerent of the Rebels. (This earns the various splinter cells, such as the one that ends up taking in Din Djarin, won't come to exist. Most probably, Din is killed as a child. Or otherwise, he's raised by Death Watch itself.)

-- It also means Obi-Wan has a place to go to, which he might do. He might actually take Luke to Mandalore and hide him there. Remember, it's established that in Disney canon, Obi-Wan has no idea Anakin has survived until years later. And Anakin is the only one who might know about his connection to Satine, so going to Mandalore if Satine is still in charge there may seem like a smart move. (Ironically, the fact that Anakin is alive changes nothing, because Anakin would be utterly incapable of grasping that Obi-Wan might do this. Anakin won't even think to look whether Obi-Wan is hiding with Satine.)


Things only really start to change once you get later on in the story. Without the Shadow Collective, Crimson Dawn remains a second-rate organisation, so the events of Solo will certainly be prevented or at least play out differently. Maul won't be around to play the role he did in Rebels, either, which at the very least means he doesn't blind Kanan. I think events in that series broadly turn out the same way without him, but I'm not sure about that. (And if we assume that Obi-Wan finds a place of hiding for himself and Luke on Mandalore rather than Tatooine, this obviously changes the events of ANH rather dramatically. But that's more of an interesting possibility to entertain.)
Obi-wan would not take Luke to Mandalore, because he was hidden on Tatooine specifically because his relatives were there (and before the latest episodes of Kenobi changed canon with regards to Obi-wan knowing Vader/Anakin was alive, also because Vader wouldn't go to Tatooine unless forced to).

Obi-wan hiding on Mandalore only makes sense if he was more interested in hooking up with Satine than hiding Luke somewhere the Empire is unlikely to find him.

Lot harder to hide on an intact and stable Mandalore than on a moisture farm and cave on a sparcely population 'arm-pit of the galaxy'.
 
Obi-wan would not take Luke to Mandalore, because he was hidden on Tatooine specifically because his relatives were there (and before the latest episodes of Kenobi changed canon with regards to Obi-wan knowing Vader/Anakin was alive, also because Vader wouldn't go to Tatooine unless forced to).

Obi-wan hiding on Mandalore only makes sense if he was more interested in hooking up with Satine than hiding Luke somewhere the Empire is unlikely to find him.

Lot harder to hide on an intact and stable Mandalore than on a moisture farm and cave on a sparcely population 'arm-pit of the galaxy'.
I have to disagree. The logic for Tatooine was there since the idea was to separate Luke and Leia, and Owen and Beru were on Tatooine, and it was a place anyone would be unlikely to look... but really, what were the alternatives, in OTL? There were none. Obi-Wan was on the run, a wanted fugitive, and he was pretty sure he'd be able to safely raise Luke on his own. Practically all potential allies were dead or also in exile. Basically the only guy he knew whose life hadn't utterly imploded was Bail... and he'd already left Leia with him.

But if the logic is that the kid in question absolutely has to be hidden... why exactly is Satine less qualified to safe-guard one of the twins than Bail?

The argument that it has to be Tatooine because it's so nicely out-of-the-way doesn't hold up. Alderaan isn't out-of-the-way, and Leia was still considered safe there. Being adopted by a prominent politician who is known across the galaxy and who is also in charge of the planet. By that logic, having Satine (a well-known bleeding heart) adopt Luke as a supposed war orphan would not raise suspician at all. (In fact, in a Mandalorian context, adoption would be down-right normal.)
 

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