What If? ROB lets you sic a terminator on a historic figure of your choice

[Aldarion]

In regards to Muhammad, his existence might have been necessary for the US to come into being, no?

Seeing how United States were and still are a source of many evils of the modern world, they are one country whose nonexistence I would find very refreshing.

 

[Chiron]

Kill Muʿāwiya ibn Abī Sufyān then protect Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib.

This avoids the whole split from the start. Without Muʿāwiya, his forces simply accede to Alī.

Then the process of bringing down the rotting corpse of the Basileía Rhōmaíōn won't be delayed by a decade. Alī can depart in 658 and with a Terminator to seize one of the gate houses, the fall is guaranteed. After which, a century or 2 later Russian Boyars looking to ditch Paganism for something cheaper to manage arrive in town and are like: Islam??? Whatever, works for me. Boys load the ship with Qurans, this will be our new religion so I can stop paying exorbitant amounts of gold and livestock to the extortionists. And you, 100 gold if you come with us and preach.

 

[bintananth]

Kill Muʿāwiya ibn Abī Sufyān then protect Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib.

This avoids the whole split from the start. Without Muʿāwiya, his forces simply accede to Alī.

Then the process of bringing down the rotting corpse of the Basileía Rhōmaíōn won't be delayed by a decade. Alī can depart in 658 and with a Terminator to seize one of the gate houses, the fall is guaranteed. After which, a century or 2 later Russian Boyars looking to ditch Paganism for something cheaper to manage arrive in town and are like: Islam??? Whatever, works for me. Boys load the ship with Qurans, this will be our new religion so I can stop paying exorbitant amounts of gold and livestock to the extortionists. And you, 100 gold if you come with us and preach.

One issue with this. The Rus picked Christianity over Islam partly because Christianity does not prohibit booze while Islam does and Russians do love their vodka.

 

[Chiron]

One issue with this. The Rus picked Christianity over Islam partly because Christianity does not prohibit booze while Islam does and Russians do love their vodka.

Vodka is centuries away and the Rus picked Christianity because that was what Constantinople had and they wanted in the good graces of the ERE for a variety of reasons, namely technical assistance, trade rights, etc.

Who ever rules Constantinople and their state religion will determine what the Rus elites go with. And its not like many Islamic Rulers just plain ignored the strictures on alcohol or selectively interpreted what constituted an alcoholic beverage for tax purposes.

 

[Husky_Khan]

TBF something as big as NO ISLAM would have impossible to know ramifications after a few generations. There are so many bubbles it could basically be more fiction then typical alt history.

Alot of what Aldarion said is true but maybe it'd be replaced with something else in every instance for better or worse. I'm assuming he feels generally works history would be "better" if Islam didn't exist which I'm generally in agreement with I guess if I had to give odds.

The real question is what could replace it? Generally speaking Hinduism and Judaism/Christianity and I'm assuming Zoroastrianism isn't as expansionist.

What would fill that void is the question and that's basically fantasy speculation I suppose.

 

[Chiron]

TBF something as big as NO ISLAM would have impossible to know ramifications after a few generations. There are so many bubbles it could basically be more fiction then typical alt history.

Alot of what Aldarion said is true but maybe it'd be replaced with something else in every instance for better or worse. I'm assuming he feels generally works history would be "better" if Islam didn't exist which I'm generally in agreement with I guess if I had to give odds.

The real question is what could replace it? Generally speaking Hinduism and Judaism/Christianity and I'm assuming Zoroastrianism isn't as expansionist.

What would fill that void is the question and that's basically fantasy speculation I suppose.

Well if not for Islam, Arianism is likely to dominate and survive in Western Europe and Egypt breaks away to form a Coptic Christian Country. In fact the ERE would start fracturing along religious lines as various Christian Sects took advantage of the weakening of the state to seize power and independence without an outside force to either overrun them or cause them to rally to the ERE's colors in a show of solidarity.

The Muslim Conquests firmly secured Orthodox and Catholic Doctrines as dominant churches in Christian Theology and provided a safety valve for the other sects to run to.

 

[WolfBear]

Kill Muʿāwiya ibn Abī Sufyān then protect Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib.

This avoids the whole split from the start. Without Muʿāwiya, his forces simply accede to Alī.

Then the process of bringing down the rotting corpse of the Basileía Rhōmaíōn won't be delayed by a decade. Alī can depart in 658 and with a Terminator to seize one of the gate houses, the fall is guaranteed. After which, a century or 2 later Russian Boyars looking to ditch Paganism for something cheaper to manage arrive in town and are like: Islam??? Whatever, works for me. Boys load the ship with Qurans, this will be our new religion so I can stop paying exorbitant amounts of gold and livestock to the extortionists. And you, 100 gold if you come with us and preach.

What happens at Tours in 732 in this TL?

 

[Chiron]

What happens at Tours in 732 in this TL?

We'll be talking about Rome 732 instead and final collapse of Christian Europe in 1000 AD.

 

[Buba]

Well if not for Islam, Arianism is likely to dominate and survive in Western Europe

What are you on? By 630 AD Arianism was long gone ...

What happens at Tours in 732 in this TL?

Nothing. It was irrelevant anyway. Frankish court chronicle writers made it into something big. It is the Battle of Prokhorovka of the Middle Ages.

 

[Chiron]

What are you on? By 630 AD Arianism was long gone ...

Garibald wasn't deposed until 671 and thus ending Arianism amongst the Lombards. Rumors the Pope had a hand in all this are just specious rumors, the Pope does not involve himself in the affairs of mortals, he was praying at the time.

 

[Buba]

TBH I completely forgot about the Lombard savages. The last holdouts, disunited, partly Orthodox already.
I stand by my opinion, though - by 630 Arianism was a spent force, fast tracked to extinction.
One hundrer years for the Moslem/Arab explosion to make a difference to its fate. In 530AD the situation would had been quite different, with not half of a Germanic Kingdom, but 3 and a half (I count Burgundy as half) polities being Arian.

 

[Skallagrim]

Garibald wasn't deposed until 671 and thus ending Arianism amongst the Lombards.

TBH I completely forgot about the Lombard savages. The last holdouts, disunited, partly Orthodox already.
I stand by my opinion, though - by 630 Arianism was a spent force, fast tracked to extinction.
One hundrer years for the Moslem/Arab explosion to make a difference to its fate. In 530AD the situation would had been quite different, with not half of a Germanic Kingdom, but 3 and a half (I count Burgundy as half) polities being Arian.

Grimoald and his son Garibald were a clear exception. Both their predecessors and their successors were Chalcedonians, and their realm was already one with a firm Chalcedonian majority by the time they ruled. The Arian heresy, as an actual force, was well and truly dead by then. Nor were these two themselves actually 'Arian', except in a nominal sense. They syncretised Arian, Chalcedonian and Pagan beliefs (in the later case, e.g. explicitly equating Donar with Saint Michael).

The fact is, Arianism was already dead by the seventh century, just as @Buba stated. All the Arian kingdoms had vanished, and the reign of two kings who nominally retained some Arianism while ruling a non-Arian populace (without attempting to bolster Arianism in any way) means nothing. Such things do not a revival make.

Whatever Islam does... it won't result in Arianism thriving, because Arianism was indeed a spent force well before Islam burst out of Arabia.

 

[Chiron]

Grimoald and his son Garibald were a clear exception. Both their predecessors and their successors were Catholic, and their realm was already one with a firm Chalcedonian majority by the time they ruled. Nor were they actually 'Arian', except in a nominal sense. They syncretised Arian, Chalcedonian and Pagan beliefs (in the later case, e.g. explicitly equating Donar with Saint Michael).

The fact is, Arianism was essentially dead by the seventh century, just as @Buba stated. All the Arian kingdoms had vanished, and the reign of two kings who nominally retained some Arianism while ruling a non-Arian populace means nothing. Such things do not a revival make.

Whatever Islam does... it won't result in Arianism thriving, because Arianism was indeed a spent force well before Islam burst out of Arabia.

Maybe, maybe not. If say Grimoald had lived another decade, not unlikely as he was 61 when he kicked the bucket, he may have been able to secure his son Garibald's reign and possibly updated Perctarit's exile to a tragic accident. And being 26 instead of 16 when his father passes would certainly help Garibald with the other nobles who can't honestly argue his youth, especially if he displays some martial prowess on the battlefield.

Would that be enough? Who knows, the Nazarene Cult that became Christianity was also an underdog that was unlikely to supplant paganism.

 

[Skallagrim]

Maybe, maybe not. If say Grimoald had lived another decade, not unlikely as he was 61 when he kicked the bucket, he may have been able to secure his son Garibald's reign and possibly updated Perctarit's exile to a tragic accident. And being 26 instead of 16 when his father passes would certainly help Garibald with the other nobles who can't honestly argue his youth, especially if he displays some martial prowess on the battlefield.

Would that be enough? Who knows, the Nazarene Cult that became Christianity was also an underdog that was unlikely to supplant paganism.

The problem is that Arianism isn't like early Christianity (an underdog on the rise) in this equation, but like the old paganism when it was already in its death throes: declining everywhere, across the board. By the time of Grimoald, it wasn't even just 'declining', but rather 'all but vanished'.

Nobody fought for it. Not even Grimoald.

I can see quite a few PODs for Arianism to thrive, but they're all well before AD 600. The main trick would be to pick an Arian ruler and have him "pull a Charlemagne". That is: he unites the Arian realms (or the bulk thereof), thus creating an immense advantage in the form of institutional, political and military support for Arianism. It's hard for any less-organised competition to triumph over that.

Considering the broader circumstances of Charlemagne's ascent in OTL, I think we may actually want "earlier Islam-equivalent" rather than "no Islam" to make this happen. The Byzantines must be suitably threatened, so that the Arian West has a relatively free hand to get its affairs in order. Given the time-frame, perhaps a wildly successful Manichaeism could fill this role?

 

[Chiron]

The problem is that Arianism isn't like early Christianity (an underdog on the rise) in this equation, but like the old paganism when it was already in its death throes: declining everywhere, across the board. By the time of Grimoald, it wasn't even just 'declining', but rather 'all but vanished'.

Nobody fought for it. Not even Grimoald.

Yet the Protestant Reformation saw large numbers of Arians pop out of the woodworks, shocking both the Protestants and Catholics who both agreed it had to be smashed, one of the few things they agreed on.

It was there, they just were too premature in coming back out.

Ultimately this is mainly a matter of opinion we will likely never resolve one way or another.

 

[Skallagrim]

Yet the Protestant Reformation saw large numbers of Arians pop out of the woodworks, shocking both the Protestants and Catholics who both agreed it had to be smashed, one of the few things they agreed on.

It was there, they just were too premature in coming back out.

Ultimately this is mainly a matter of opinion we will likely never resolve one way or another.

The Reformation happened quite a few centuries after the period we're discussing here. It's virtually impossible to realistically argue that it somehow represents a resurgence of actual Arianism. Rather, various strains within the Reformation espoused doctrines that were akin to those the Arians once upheld. But they certainly didn't actually descend from the old Arianism; it wasn't like there existed some secret "Arian underground" covertly keeping the faith all those centuries.

Now, if you want to say that the Reformation supplied opportunities for the birth of something that is in practice a lot like Neo-Arianism (and may, however ahistorically, even come to identify itself as such)... well, that's possible.

I don't think that it has any bearing on the situation in the seventh century, however. Saying "Arianism-esque ideas were viable in the 16th century" doesn't imply "Arian revival was viable in the 7th century". Grimoald and his son weren't "coming back out" (prematurely or otherwise), like stalwart torch-bearers of some underground movement. Rather, they represented a pair of shaking, feeble hands holding the guttering stump of a used-up candle that was moments from going out.

That a new candle, made of similar wax, was lit afresh nine centuries later... that's a whole other matter.

 

[Chiron]

Moving on:

Alternatively;

Protect Abd al-Rahman ibn Abd Allah al-Ghafiqi, kill Charles Martel.

Martel is to be given credit for personally taking out a loan from the Pope and training a standing force of heavy infantrymen into professional troops and refusing battle on anything except his terms and on terrain he has chosen.

This also meant he was the lynchpin of the entire Frankish force, so the Terminator just rushes up the hill and harvests Martel's head and then scares the fuck out of the Franks by walking around with Martel's head. Panic sets in, they start running, fearing that they have mightily offended god and then al-Rahman's cavalry can make short work of the Army, taking many prisoners and harvesting heads.

Odo hearing of the destruction of Martel's forces can either submit, make a final stand, or run, his choice. The Franks lose the core of Martel's Army which were their best trained troops to use as cadres for their later campaigns that drove the Umayyads out of France. That is just as disastrous as losing Martel. Even worse the captured Franks if not enslaved or executed, could potentially convert to Islam and swell al-Rahman's force, giving him a mounted heavy infantry force he lacked.

 

[Agent23]

Kill Muʿāwiya ibn Abī Sufyān then protect Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib.

This avoids the whole split from the start. Without Muʿāwiya, his forces simply accede to Alī.

Then the process of bringing down the rotting corpse of the Basileía Rhōmaíōn won't be delayed by a decade. Alī can depart in 658 and with a Terminator to seize one of the gate houses, the fall is guaranteed. After which, a century or 2 later Russian Boyars looking to ditch Paganism for something cheaper to manage arrive in town and are like: Islam??? Whatever, works for me. Boys load the ship with Qurans, this will be our new religion so I can stop paying exorbitant amounts of gold and livestock to the extortionists. And you, 100 gold if you come with us and preach.

The Volga Bulgars tried to persuade Vladimir of Kiev to do just that, his answer was, "U man, Slav can't into no drinking"

Marx is, of course, a tempting target, but somebody else probably would have come up with the same gibberish.

Offing Ulianov is also tempting, but I think that sending it to guard Stolypin or Alexander II would probably work better.

Can the Terinator share info about the future if asked, Arnie could in 1 and 2?

That would change things in a pretty major way.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Kill: That's a toughie and I don't have a good answer. William T. Sherman is on the list of people I'd consider sending a T-800 after because he considered a sandbag to be worth more than a non-white soldier.

Problem with this is that it was really Sherman that destroyed all chance of Southern victory.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Problem with this is that it was really Sherman that destroyed all chance of Southern victory.

So, it could be a win-win?