Amazon Prime Rings of Power: Lord of the Rings on Amazon

[ATP]

Could be worse. We could be getting Stupid Sexy Shelob from Middle Earth Shadow of War.

You racist,sexist and antisemite! Why she is not black jewish muslim atheist lesbian transwoman ?

 

[Typhonis]

Those are the unspoken monsters that live beneath Moria. The ones Gandalf would not speak more upon. Things that scared a Balrog enough to ally with him to escape.

 

[Jormungandr]

So... she's not the type of spider who eats her boyfriend after he's shagged her brains out, right? Just asking for a friend...

Those are the unspoken monsters that live beneath Moria. The ones Gandalf would not speak more upon. Things that scared a Balrog enough to ally with him to escape.

Men in dresses?

 

[Typhonis]

So... she's not the type of spider who eats her boyfriend after he's shagged her brains out, right? Just asking for a friend...

Men in dresses?

Depends on how good the date was before she invites him in for 'hot coffee'.

Those aren't dresses laddie those are KILTS ya great sassenach! The only thing Tolkien feared, Drunk Scotsmen.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Could be worse. We could be getting Stupid Sexy Shelob from Middle Earth Shadow of War.

Book and Film Shelob was all naked and all natural.

Haven't played this game but I know a tease when I see one. String you along figuratively instead of literally. HARD Pass.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

This is fair.

Mind you, Stupid Sexy Shelob in that game was tolerable in that the game and its producers were under no delusion they were in any way part of the canon, much less pushing a message of 'modern values for modern audiences'.

*spits*

They were just making a game enjoyable for a target demographic, and make money out of it.

Stupid Sexy Shelob is also actually consistent with the book canon that Ungoliant and her offspring were vastly more than just "giant spiders"; they were essentially ravenous primordial spirits that just happened to take spider-form by preference. It is specifically canon that although there are metaphysical reasons that a habitually used form does *tend* to become more of a permanent incarnation, it was only Morgoth and Sauron that ultimately became *so* tied to their incarnation as to lose the ability to change form entirely.

 

[StormEagle]

Stupid Sexy Shelob is also actually consistent with the book canon that Ungoliant and her offspring were vastly more than just "giant spiders"; they were essentially ravenous primordial spirits that just happened to take spider-form by preference. It is specifically canon that although there are metaphysical reasons that a habitually used form does *tend* to become more of a permanent incarnation, it was only Morgoth and Sauron that ultimately became *so* tied to their incarnation as to lose the ability to change form entirely.

As far as we know, none of Ungoliant’s many children were shapeshifters.

And she apparently had quite a few. To my knowledge, Shelob was the greatest of those remaining. I’d assume that if she could shapeshift, Tolkien probably would have mentioned it.

Given how he was rather good about explaining things, either in the books themselves or in other works that expanded on the lore.

So no, I reject your premise that Stupid Sexy Shelob is consistent with canon.

Hell, we don’t even really know what Ungoliant was. I don’t think she was of the same order of beings as Sauron or Morgoth, as I think she was implied to be from outside Arda. Did the Silmarillion actually have her shapeshifting? Is that an ability she even possesses?

I’m legit asking here, because it’s been a while since I skimmed the Silmarillion.
Edit:
Actually answering my own question here.

"Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy seas, in the utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more like she has always been [Abbott's italics]; and she it is who loveth still to dwell in that black place taking the guise of an unlovely spider." -Tolkien

So yes, Ungoliant likely could shapeshift.

However, just because she could doesn’t necessarily mean her offspring had inherited that ability.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

As far as we know, none of Ungoliant’s many children were shapeshifters.

And she apparently had quite a few. To my knowledge, Shelob was the greatest of those remaining. I’d assume that if she could shapeshift, Tolkien probably would have mentioned it.

Given how he was rather good about explaining things, either in the books themselves or in other works that expanded on the lore.

So no, I reject your premise that Stupid Sexy Shelob is consistent with canon.

Hell, we don’t even really know what Ungoliant was. I don’t think she was of the same order of beings as Sauron or Morgoth, as I think she was implied to be from outside Arda. Did the Silmarillion actually have her shapeshifting? Is that an ability she even possesses?

I’m legit asking here, because it’s been a while since I skimmed the Silmarillion.
Edit:
Actually answering my own question here.

"Mayhap she was bred of mists and darkness on the confines of the Shadowy seas, in the utter dark that came between the overthrow of the Lamps and the kindling of the Trees, but more like she has always been [Abbott's italics]; and she it is who loveth still to dwell in that black place taking the guise of an unlovely spider." -Tolkien

So yes, Ungoliant likely could shapeshift.

However, just because she could doesn’t necessarily mean her offspring had inherited that ability.

The argument I'm making is that Ungoliant's offspring would be fundamentally the same sort of primordial spirit as she, and that as such, her shapeshifting ability isn't shapeshifting per se but the ability to take on an incarnate guise as she pleases, in much the same manner that Morgoth is an Ainur spirit incarnate in humanoid form, and Sauron similarly a Maia spirit incarnate in humanoid form. Morgoth and Sauron are described as having specifically lost the ability to freely change forms due to the amount of their power they bound into their incarnations, but this also enabled them to wield vastly greater direct power in those forms than the Istari, who were incarnate Maiar as well but without having infused their power that way.

This being the case, I'm arguing that all evidence is that as an inherent default, incarnate spirits can choose their incarnation freely and change it with relative ease. The inability to do so is an exception.

 

[StormEagle]

The argument I'm making is that Ungoliant's offspring would be fundamentally the same sort of primordial spirit as she, and that as such, her shapeshifting ability isn't shapeshifting per se but the ability to take on an incarnate guise as she pleases, in much the same manner that Morgoth is an Ainur spirit incarnate in humanoid form, and Sauron similarly a Maia spirit incarnate in humanoid form. Morgoth and Sauron are described as having specifically lost the ability to freely change forms due to the amount of their power they bound into their incarnations, but this also enabled them to wield vastly greater direct power in those forms than the Istari, who were incarnate Maiar as well but without having infused their power that way.

This being the case, I'm arguing that all evidence is that as an inherent default, incarnate spirits can choose their incarnation freely and change it with relative ease. The inability to do so is an exception.

This is making the assumption that the children of Maia, or other spirits, are in themselves a Maia.

This is not necessarily the case. Luthien was the daughter of Melian, a Maia of Yavanna, but was not a Maia herself.

I therefore see no real reason to assume that Ungoliant’s children are the same order of being as her. Especially because we don’t know what the hell she first mated with to make her children.

After her first brood was born, she made a habit of mating with, and then eating, her male descendants. But we don’t know who or what the first father was.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

I personally don't get people's deal with Shadow of Mordor/War Shelob the entire game is only meant to be a fun AU with loose canon, I don't even think even it's creators will deny this. I mean is really hard to accept they made Shelob a shapeshifter using loose canon for justification under those circumstances? I personally won't be losing sleep over it or dominate my headspace, and neither should any of you.

The only way the Shadow series has affected my perception of LOTR canon is that I can no longer picture or imagine Celebrimbor canonlogically as anything other than his in game counterpart unconnected to plot and the general geography of Mordor itself as shown and thats it, beyond that it's a fun AU fanfic game that's in its own universe.

In fact, I personally wish that Shadow of War had solidified the whole AU deal more with an alternate ending where Celebrimbor remained sane based of dialogue choices between him and Talion and once they dominate Sauron they decide the best course of action is to haul his ass back to Valinor bringing Sauron to justice as a prisoner thus averting the War for the Ring.

 

[Culsu]

They are fun games that straddle close enough to canon to give you the feeling of acting the LOTR universe. They never claimed to be hard canon. People also would only be half as mad with RoP if it did the same, I'd say.

 

[Aldarion]

I personally don't get people's deal with Shadow of Mordor/War Shelob the entire game is only meant to be a fun AU with loose canon, I don't even think even it's creators will deny this. I mean is really hard to accept they made Shelob a shapeshifter using loose canon for justification under those circumstances? I personally won't be losing sleep over it or dominate my headspace, and neither should any of you.

The only way the Shadow series has affected my perception of LOTR canon is that I can no longer picture or imagine Celebrimbor canonlogically as anything other than his in game counterpart unconnected to plot and the general geography of Mordor itself as shown and thats it, beyond that it's a fun AU fanfic game that's in its own universe.

In fact, I personally wish that Shadow of War had solidified the whole AU deal more with an alternate ending where Celebrimbor remained sane based of dialogue choices between him and Talion and once they dominate Sauron they decide the best course of action is to haul his ass back to Valinor for justice averting the War for the Ring.

They are fun games that straddle close enough to canon to give you the feeling of acting the LOTR universe. They never claimed to be hard canon. People also would only be half as mad with RoP if it did the same, I'd say.

I really don't understand that deal with hard canon and soft canon. Considering what LOTR universe is, anything not written by Tolkien is not canon at all.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

I really don't understand that deal with hard canon and soft canon. Considering what LOTR universe is, anything not written by Tolkien is not canon at all.

really REALLY hot take so apologies for the match I'm about to light but I've come to believe that once anything is made public the concept of Canon goes out the window at least when dealing with a fictional/ahistorical work. LOTR should have never been published if canon was such a concern. Not even early mythology had a consistent canon....still doesn't change the fact that Rings of Power sucks.

 

[TheRejectionist]

As far as I know, LOTR is anything but public domain.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

This is making the assumption that the children of Maia, or other spirits, are in themselves a Maia.

This is not necessarily the case. Luthien was the daughter of Melian, a Maia of Yavanna, but was not a Maia herself.

I therefore see no real reason to assume that Ungoliant’s children are the same order of being as her. Especially because we don’t know what the hell she first mated with to make her children.

After her first brood was born, she made a habit of mating with, and then eating, her male descendants. But we don’t know who or what the first father was.

the one big issue I have with Shelob's portrayal in game as "Being potentially consistent with canon" is. If Shelob really had beef with Sauron and she could shapeshift into one of the fairest maidens in Middle Earth, would that not have been helpful for a certain hobbit companion to know so he wouldn't IDK...ATTACK HER?!?

Pretty sure Sam would have been a lot more cordial had she said "Put down your weapon little halfling I mean you no harm." and then proceeded to transform into her humanoid form to put his mind at ease.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

As far as I know, LOTR is anything but public domain.

ok just because people can't make money off of it doesn't keep people from making derivative works. If it did then just about every fan site on the internet including this one would be non-existent. Money and pieces of Lawyer paper can change hands all it likes but it ultimately comes down to what your audience will actually read/watch/play and accept.

 

[Aldarion]

really REALLY hot take so apologies for the match I'm about to light but I've come to believe that once anything is made public the concept of Canon goes out the window at least when dealing with a fictional/ahistorical work. LOTR should have never been published if canon was such a concern. Not even early mythology had a consistent canon....still doesn't change the fact that Rings of Power sucks.

ok just because people can't make money off of it doesn't keep people from making derivative works. If it did then just about every fan site on the internet including this one would be non-existent. Money and pieces of Lawyer paper can change hands all it likes but it ultimately comes down to what your audience will actually read/watch/play and accept.

Derivative works are, by definition, not canon.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Derivative works are, by definition, not canon.

Do you really think a normie is going to care? Normies weren't mad at the last Jedi because it didn't follow canon they were mad because the story decisions were not to their liking.

If it had been Lucas instead of Rian Johnson they would have likely hated it all the same.

 

[StormEagle]

They are fun games that straddle close enough to canon to give you the feeling of acting the LOTR universe. They never claimed to be hard canon. People also would only be half as mad with RoP if it did the same, I'd say.

The only reason I’m really arguing about the Shelob thing is *because* @ShadowArxxy stated it was potentially consistent with the book canon.

Which I take nerdy issue with.

I have no real opinion about Shadow of War. I played Shadow of Mordor, but the game really isn’t much to my liking. I can concede that they are good games for a lot of people, I just didn’t much enjoy the first one and had no real desire to play the second because of that.

Still, despite all my issues with them, they are better than Rings of Power.

 

[Typhonis]

It has been theorised that Ungoliant and the nameless things, plus Tom Bombadil were created when Morgoth and his followers altered the song sung at creation and from that turmoil those things came about.