Amazon Prime Rings of Power: Lord of the Rings on Amazon

[ShadowArxxy]

I personally don't get people's deal with Shadow of Mordor/War Shelob the entire game is only meant to be a fun AU with loose canon, I don't even think even it's creators will deny this. I mean is really hard to accept they made Shelob a shapeshifter using loose canon for justification under those circumstances? I personally won't be losing sleep over it or dominate my headspace, and neither should any of you.

The only way the Shadow series has affected my perception of LOTR canon is that I can no longer picture or imagine Celebrimbor canonlogically as anything other than his in game counterpart unconnected to plot and the general geography of Mordor itself as shown and thats it, beyond that it's a fun AU fanfic game that's in its own universe.

In fact, I personally wish that Shadow of War had solidified the whole AU deal more with an alternate ending where Celebrimbor remained sane based of dialogue choices between him and Talion and once they dominate Sauron they decide the best course of action is to haul his ass back to Valinor for justice averting the War for the Ring.

I agree that it's loose canon; the argument I'm making is that it's actually pretty compatible with book canon, and if anything, far more compatible with the complexities of book-canon than the very simplified take of movie canon.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The only reason I’m really arguing about the Shelob thing is *because* @ShadowArxxy stated it was potentially consistent with the book canon.

Which I take nerdy issue with.

I have no real opinion about Shadow of War. I played Shadow of Mordor, but the game really isn’t much to my liking. I can concede that they are good games for a lot of people, I just didn’t much enjoy the first one and had no real desire to play the second because of that.

Still, despite all my issues with them, they are better than Rings of Power.

I loved Shadow of Mordor, got kinda distracted by RL stuff when I started playing Shadow of War and never got back into it...should get it running again at some point, it's a fun game.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

I really don't understand that deal with hard canon and soft canon. Considering what LOTR universe is, anything not written by Tolkien is not canon at all.

Canon is whatever people view it to be outside what Tolkien wrote, only his text are sacred but that doesn't mean other stories can't be made by official endorsed sources, it's just that they aren't to immediately taken as gospel, kind of like this show.

the one big issue I have with Shelob's portrayal in game as "Being potentially consistent with canon" is. If Shelob really had beef with Sauron and she could shapeshift into one of the fairest maidens in Middle Earth, would that not have been helpful for a certain hobbit companion to know so he wouldn't IDK...ATTACK HER?!?

Pretty sure Sam would have been a lot more cordial had she said "Put down your weapon little halfling I mean you no harm." and then proceeded to transform into her humanoid form to put his mind at ease.

No offense but within the confines of the game world we are given good reasons as to why she didn't. Shelob in SoW can see the outcomes of certain futures and everything she does in SoW is to reach a certain outcome to ensure one of those futures. She speaks of soon making her 'sacrifice' to destroy Sauron in one of her memories when the time comes, it's possible she let Sam kill her in this AU because if he didn't it would have somehow guaranteed the Ring not being destroyed either due to the Hobbits getting captured or them falling to the Rings influences, remember the entire character arc with Sam having to rescue Frodo was big development for him.

That being said I do understand your frustrations like I said I would have preferred the Game to have had an alternate ending that made it undeniable that it was an AU.

 

[Aldarion]

Canon is whatever people view it to be outside what Tolkien wrote, only his text are sacred but that doesn't mean other stories can't be made by official endorsed sources, it's just that they aren't to immediately taken as gospel, kind of like this show.

Uh...

canon1
noun

1. 1.
   a general law, rule, principle, or criterion by which something is judged.
   "the appointment violated the canons of fair play and equal opportunity"
   
   
2. 2.
   a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine.
   "the biblical canon"

If it's not by Tolkien, it is not canon.

 

[Free-Stater 101]

2.
a collection or list of sacred books accepted as genuine.
"the biblical canon"

Then what the hell do you call it? I am not being the dictionary Nazi here, I am not arguing SoW is canon outside the own little universe it had created for itself that's loosely based off Tolkiens work, I am arguing that for it's still not fanfiction either, it's produced with the consent of the Tolkien family.

To me that's the difference between what I view as 'Hard Canon' and "Soft Canon" hard is something undeniably writing by word of God and soft is something more or less not but still related.

For example, if Christopher Tolkien was alive and made a three-page short story, about the life of a small family living in Fornost before their fall by your definition it would be nothing more than fanfiction even if it didn't conflict with any established lore by his father.

That's why I don't like "Canon=word of God" or "non-canon=fanfic trash" crowds their is a lot of grey area nuance in a series that has a bunch of non-canon media associated with it, heck the Silmarilion is arguable to be non-canon as it's mostly notes that Christopher filled the blanks in on and the fandom still argues over it and especially the book of unfinished tales.

Judging LOTR off what's canon is just impossible. Tolkiens works are gold and anything else is entirely up your own personal opinion.

 

[Skallagrim]

Then what the hell do you call it? I am not being the dictionary Nazi here, I am not arguing SoW is canon outside the own little universe it had created for itself that's loosely based off Tolkiens work, I am arguing that for it's still not fanfiction either, it's produced with the consent of the Tolkien family.

Well, if we're relating it to the term "canon", the most accurate term here would probably be "apocrypha".

Of course, there's such a thing as competing and overlapping canons. The Aeneid is not part of the Homeric canon (being basically a fanfic spin-off), but is part of the so-called Classical canon (in which the works of Homer are also included).

Derived works can of course form a coherent canon of their own, while still being apocryphal to the source material. (For instance, Star Wars has two canons of derived works, both of which are apocryphal to the canon that consists of Lucas's original work.)

 

[Circle of Willis]

Frankly, I don't know how anyone could possibly contend that Tolkien wouldn't approve of Stupid Sexy Shelob and in fact write The Two Towers with exactly this in mind, thereby making it 110% canonical, when there's a recording of him saying as much.



I mean, c'mon people.

Behind her short stalk-like neck was her huge swollen body, a vast bloated bag, swaying and sagging between her legs; its great bulk was black, blotched with livid marks, but the belly underneath was pale and luminous and gave forth a stench.

A 'vast bloated bag swaying and sagging between her legs'? Why, that sounds just like Kim Kardashian after her latest butt-lift to me. Hæða ecge indeed!

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

1. "the biblical canon"

So there is a Tolkienism religion?

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Canon is whatever people view it to be outside what Tolkien wrote, only his text are sacred but that doesn't mean other stories can't be made by official endorsed sources, it's just that they aren't to immediately taken as gospel, kind of like this show.

No offense but within the confines of the game world we are given good reasons as to why she didn't. Shelob in SoW can see the outcomes of certain futures and everything she does in SoW is to reach a certain outcome to ensure one of those futures. She speaks of soon making her 'sacrifice' to destroy Sauron in one of her memories when the time comes, it's possible she let Sam kill her in this AU because if he didn't it would have somehow guaranteed the Ring not being destroyed either due to the Hobbits getting captured or them falling to the Rings influences, remember the entire character arc with Sam having to rescue Frodo was big development for him.

That being said I do understand your frustrations like I said I would have preferred the Game to have had an alternate ending that made it undeniable that it was an AU.

except It never says if she died or not. Just that she was lest bubbling" in her misery far away. which wouldn't make sense if she was doing some sort of stoic sacrifice....it just screams "Massive retcon we didn't really think ahead about."

 

[Aldarion]

Then what the hell do you call it? I am not being the dictionary Nazi here, I am not arguing SoW is canon outside the own little universe it had created for itself that's loosely based off Tolkiens work, I am arguing that for it's still not fanfiction either, it's produced with the consent of the Tolkien family.

To me that's the difference between what I view as 'Hard Canon' and "Soft Canon" hard is something undeniably writing by word of God and soft is something more or less not but still related.

For example, if Christopher Tolkien was alive and made a three-page short story, about the life of a small family living in Fornost before their fall by your definition it would be nothing more than fanfiction even if it didn't conflict with any established lore by his father.

That's why I don't like "Canon=word of God" or "non-canon=fanfic trash" crowds their is a lot of grey area nuance in a series that has a bunch of non-canon media associated with it, heck the Silmarilion is arguable to be non-canon as it's mostly notes that Christopher filled the blanks in on and the fandom still argues over it and especially the book of unfinished tales.

Judging LOTR off what's canon is just impossible. Tolkiens works are gold and anything else is entirely up your own personal opinion.

It comes under the purview of "official". Anything that carries the trademark of "Lord of the Rings" is "official" product... but that does not make it canon, except for itself. Rings of Power are canon for the Rings of Power, Shadow of Mordor is canon for the Shadow of Mordor... but neither is canon for the Tolkien Legendarium, that is, Lord of the Rings and affiliated works, because they were not written by Tolkien.

So if you want to discuss Lord of the Rings... neither of these is applicaple to discussion. It is not "soft canon", it simply isn't canon at all.

"Hard canon" and "soft canon" in case of Tolkien's Legendarium would consist entirely of Tolkien's works. Difference is that "hard canon" would consist of published and more-or-less finalized works - that is to say, the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, and the LotR Appendices - while "soft canon" would consist of works that were never finalized by Tolkien and should thus be superseded in any discussion by his published works - so "soft canon" is the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, Fall of Gondolin and so on.

And yes,

if Christopher Tolkien was alive and made a three-page short story, about the life of a small family living in Fornost before their fall

that would be fanfiction, technically, although the fact that Christopher Tolkien did help his father with writing the books - in fact, IIRC, he was the one that drew the map you see in Lord of the Rings! - does mean that his opinion on his father's work does carry some weight. Unlike Amazon's or literally anybody else's opinion.

By this definition:

To me that's the difference between what I view as 'Hard Canon' and "Soft Canon" hard is something undeniably writing by word of God and soft is something more or less not but still related.

any fanfiction would be soft canon. Which is a second reason why I reject such view (first reason, well, see third paragraph of my response, above).

EDIT:

So there is a Tolkienism religion?

There actually is:

 

[DarthOne]

It comes under the purview of "official". Anything that carries the trademark of "Lord of the Rings" is "official" product... but that does not make it canon, except for itself. Rings of Power are canon for the Rings of Power, Shadow of Mordor is canon for the Shadow of Mordor... but neither is canon for the Tolkien Legendarium, that is, Lord of the Rings and affiliated works, because they were not written by Tolkien.

So if you want to discuss Lord of the Rings... neither of these is applicaple to discussion. It is not "soft canon", it simply isn't canon at all.

"Hard canon" and "soft canon" in case of Tolkien's Legendarium would consist entirely of Tolkien's works. Difference is that "hard canon" would consist of published and more-or-less finalized works - that is to say, the Hobbit, the Lord of the Rings, and the LotR Appendices - while "soft canon" would consist of works that were never finalized by Tolkien and should thus be superseded in any discussion by his published works - so "soft canon" is the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, Fall of Gondolin and so on.

And yes,

that would be fanfiction, technically, although the fact that Christopher Tolkien did help his father with writing the books - in fact, IIRC, he was the one that drew the map you see in Lord of the Rings! - does mean that his opinion on his father's work does carry some weight. Unlike Amazon's or literally anybody else's opinion.

By this definition:

any fanfiction would be soft canon. Which is a second reason why I reject such view (first reason, well, see third paragraph of my response, above).

EDIT:

There actually is:

I am pretty sure Tolkien would be horrified at people treating his work like a religion instead of following Christianity.

 

[Yinko]

I am pretty sure Tolkien would be horrified at people treating his work like a religion instead of following Christianity.

According to the LoTR making-of videos they had on the directors cut, he was horrified that people were doing cosplay, graffiti of lines from the books and doing hobbit-inspired weddings.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

According to the LoTR making-of videos they had on the directors cut, he was horrified that people were doing cosplay, graffiti of lines from the books and doing hobbit-inspired weddings.

That freaked him out? That's like fandom 101 stuff. I guess the guy was incredibly naive about how readership works. Do you think he ever regretted publishing the books?

 

[Yinko]

That freaked him out? That's like fandom 101 stuff. I guess the guy was incredibly naive about how readership works. Do you think he ever regretted publishing the books?

Dude died in '73, before fandom was even a thing really. Star Wars didn't come out till '77. I don't think any adults were doing fandom type stuff for Buck Rogers or Captain Nemo at the time.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Dude died in '73, before fandom was even a thing really. Star Wars didn't come out till '77. I don't think any adults were doing fandom type stuff for Buck Rogers or Captain Nemo at the time.

ok I guess the proper question would be do you think he WOULD HAVE regretted publishing the books?

 

[Yinko]

ok I guess the proper question would be do you think he WOULD HAVE regretted publishing the books?

Maybe if he'd seen Rings of Power. In general though, not really. The fact that they have been enduring and inspired so many other things fulfills what he wanted, to create a mythology. Mythology endures, inspires and teaches.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Maybe if he'd seen Rings of Power. In general though, not really. The fact that they have been enduring and inspired so many other things fulfills what he wanted, to create a mythology. Mythology endures, inspires and teaches.

Probably the best opinion to take on licensed creations that mangle your work. This is Max Brooks on the World War Z film that was "based on" his novel of almost the same name.

"I was expecting to hate, it and I wanted to hate it because it was so different from my book, and yet the fact that it was so different from my book made it easier to watch because I didn't watch my characters and my story get mangled. So I was just watching somebody else's zombie movie, which was fun and intense."

The main exception being that Rings of Power is balls of course by most metrics.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Probably the best opinion to take on licensed creations that mangle your work. This is Max Brooks on the World War Z film that was "based on" his novel of almost the same name.

"I was expecting to hate, it and I wanted to hate it because it was so different from my book, and yet the fact that it was so different from my book made it easier to watch because I didn't watch my characters and my story get mangled. So I was just watching somebody else's zombie movie, which was fun and intense."

The main exception being that Rings of Power is balls of course by most metrics.

personally I always implement the multiverse into my stories mainly as a way of acknowledging that I'm aware that if any of my stories get any kind of following there are people who will make derivative works

 

[Circle of Willis]

According to the LoTR making-of videos they had on the directors cut, he was horrified that people were doing cosplay, graffiti of lines from the books and doing hobbit-inspired weddings.

I thought that was because the people doing it were hippies taken in by his naturalistic themes (and most likely, considering how diametrically opposed their worldviews were in all other regards, little to nothing else). Goes to speak of LOTR's universal appeal that both they & their law-and-order-focused conservative opponents could enjoy the books, I guess. But to be fair, I also wouldn't particularly have wanted to be associated with or have my works (poorly) reinterpreted by the hippie crowd

 

[Yinko]

I thought that was because the people doing it were hippies taken in by his naturalistic themes (and most likely, considering how diametrically opposed their worldviews were in all other regards, little to nothing else). Goes to speak of LOTR's universal appeal that both they & their law-and-order-focused conservative opponents could enjoy the books, I guess. But to be fair, I also wouldn't particularly have wanted to be associated with or have my works (poorly) reinterpreted by the hippie crowd

Could be, the directors cut didn't mention that aspect. Kiwis be like that.