peter Zeihan 2020

S'task

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It makes ideological sense from the perspective of the radical left.

Turks are considered "indigenous" (just, you know, ignore that entire migration and invasion historically) and "brown" while Israelis are considered "colonists" and "white" (you know, just ignoring that the Jews have evidence of continued residence in the region going back to the Bronze Age and the fact that Sephardic and other non-Ashkenazi Jews make up a majority of Israel).
 

Poe

Well-known member
Trading Israel, a half stable and well armed democracy, for Turkey, a dictatorship with Imperial ambition, is a terrible trade.
Turkey is not a dictatorship, more importantly it's the largest and best equipped military in the middle east and they are vital for containing Russia.
It makes ideological sense from the perspective of the radical left.

Turks are considered "indigenous" (just, you know, ignore that entire migration and invasion historically) and "brown" while Israelis are considered "colonists" and "white" (you know, just ignoring that the Jews have evidence of continued residence in the region going back to the Bronze Age and the fact that Sephardic and other non-Ashkenazi Jews make up a majority of Israel).
Where are you getting this from? The left absolutely hates Turkey so this seems like a baseless spiel to me
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
Turkey is not a dictatorship, more importantly it's the largest and best equipped military in the middle east and they are vital for containing Russia.

Where are you getting this from? The left absolutely hates Turkey so this seems like a baseless spiel to me
Turkey absolutely is a dictatorship; and as far as I'm aware, most regressive leftists don't have an opinion on Turkey one way or the other. It's just not on their radar. Also, considering they're allied with Russia, I'm not sure why you think Turkey is willing to help contain them.
 

Poe

Well-known member

Turkey absolutely is a dictatorship; and as far as I'm aware, most regressive leftists don't have an opinion on Turkey one way or the other. It's just not on their radar. Also, considering they're allied with Russia, I'm not sure why you think Turkey is willing to help contain them.
You're just repeating talking points you've heard from the US intelligence community who are mad that Erogan played them and Russia against each other and have been doing so for the past decade. Idiotic memes and baseless talking points aren't proof of anything, Turkey elects its leaders and the last election was close at that.
 

Marduk

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Turkey absolutely is a dictatorship; and as far as I'm aware, most regressive leftists don't have an opinion on Turkey one way or the other. It's just not on their radar. Also, considering they're allied with Russia, I'm not sure why you think Turkey is willing to help contain them.
Dude, Turkey is part of NATO and has provided a lot of weapons to Ukraine:
 

Poe

Well-known member
Dude, Turkey is part of NATO and has provided a lot of weapons to Ukraine:
People are confusing hard negotiating tactics with support. Turkey has been one of our most consistent anti-Russian allies for fifty years, yes they bluffed hard over the last two years but also they consider the Kurds a serious threat to their territory and we've been arming these people and propping them up on Turkeys south western border all while refusing to back their interests in Syria (which has benefited both Russia and Iran btw.)
 

Terthna

Professional Lurker
You're just repeating talking points you've heard from the US intelligence community who are mad that Erogan played them and Russia against each other and have been doing so for the past decade. Idiotic memes and baseless talking points aren't proof of anything, Turkey elects its leaders and the last election was close at that.
Okay; so where are you getting your information about Turkey then?
 

Bacle

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Dude, Turkey is part of NATO and has provided a lot of weapons to Ukraine:
Let's be fair here, Turkey has been trying to play both sides of the conflict and the only reason they are in NATO is because of their control over Black Sea access.

Erdogan wants a neo-Ottoman Empire, and Turkey's NATO membership is more for a nuclear umbrella it doesn't have to pay for while it uses it's own forces for it's neo-Ottoman dreams.
 

Marduk

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Let's be fair here, Turkey has been trying to play both sides of the conflict and the only reason they are in NATO is because of their control over Black Sea access.

Erdogan wants a neo-Ottoman Empire, and Turkey's NATO membership is more for a nuclear umbrella it doesn't have to pay for while it uses it's own forces for it's neo-Ottoman dreams.
Assuming he has both the means and the will...
He's kinda stuck on not being willing to make a major move on little failed state Syria, nevermind making a proper empire.
But if he does, Russian Empire 2.0 would certainly have conflicting claims with Ottoman Empire 2.0. After all the 1.0's had their fair share of wars.
 

Emperor Tippy

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Zeihan is ignoring the domestic political realities in the US.

If Trump is elected then the US position will become very solid support for Israel and fuck the Palestinians hard. The dock ends the next day and the whole political calculus of the ME changes.

If Biden tries to end the relationship with Israel and support the Palestinians before the election then he commits political suicide. "Joe Biden supports terrorists who killed more Jews in one day than anyone else since Hitler." would be a Trump attack ad. "Joe Biden abandons Israel to support terrorists." would be another. Then you have the Congressional realities. There is zero chance that the current Congress will authorize so much as a single dollar for helping Palestine or Hamas. And if Biden asks for money for Palestine then the Republicans will attack him for it.

Post election with a Biden win it depends on the makeup of Congress and whether or not Biden is willing to piss off the Pro-Terrorist faction of the Democrat party.

As for the broader ME realignment, that is going to happen but Turkey is in some respects more limited than Zeihan likes to talk about. The ME has four local powers that matter; Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Israel. Iran will never be able to cut any kind of deal with Saudi Arabia or Israel. None of the other 3 are really willing to let Turkey expand into the ME in a big way.

If the US pulls out then Israel and Saudi Arabia will become not just friendly but active partners and allies; especially after the King of SA dies and MBS takes the throne in his own right. Marry Israeli technical and military skills with Saudi money and oil and you have a very strong power bloc - and one that has nuclear weapons. Then you have the longer term; Saudi Arabia has basically limitless money and it is effectively all controlled by one person. Have Israel put a nuclear power plant in SA to power a desalinization plant and greenhouse a solid chunk of the SA desert and you can turn SA into a food producer of sufficient scale to keep Egypt (and a good chunk of the rest of the ME) fed. Economically that isn't really worth it but SA doesn't really care about economics.

If Israel and SA see the US abandoning them (much less supporting their enemies) then their entire calculus changes. It becomes a matter of existential issues for both of them. An Israel-SA alliance would have zero problems bringing along Egypt and Jordan and wouldn't care a whit about international opinion or US opinion. If Israel supports SA in Yemen and no one was caring about UN whining then they could pacify that patch of desert in relatively short order. Offer money and support to Ethiopia to takeover Somalia and (potentially) Sudan and that alliance would have full control over the Suez and Red Sea. Saudi oil would keep China on their side (for however long China is still relevant) and both Israel and SA are fairly good at manipulating domestic US politics so they could likely keep the US at least neutral with them.

---
What often ends up overlooked is that if/when the US pulls back the space of possibilities expands rather drastically. Saudi Arabia, with active Israeli support, decides to outright conquer and annex Yemen and gives zero fucks about "war crimes" or "crimes against humanity"? What happens? Will the US be willing to send in troops to actively fight SA and Israel in defense of Yemen? Will the US sanction SA when SA says that any country that obeys those US sanctions no longer gets any ME oil and Egypt says anyone who obeys them doesn't get to use the Suez canal? Will Europe support the US given they already lost Russian oil and gas?

On the other hand, if the US doesn't really do anything to attempt to stop SA/Israel then what does everyone else do?
 

Emperor Tippy

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I agree with most of what you're saying but hasn't America been giving billions to Iran and hamas?
The Iran money was letting a foreign bank unfreeze an Iranian account. It wasn't straight up giving Iran money.

The money to Hamas was first (poorly) laundered through the UN. And Congress isn't going to be approving any more funds for UNRWA.
 

Cherico

Well-known member
honestly if the saudis conquered yemen and stopped the houthis from fucking with international trade that would be a win.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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Ukraine is now striking Russian oil refining capacity with drones east of Moscow, more likely to do financial damage than the sanctions:

This is the sort of shit where Ziehan is kinda fun to watch, where he is reacting to real time events that could throw off his normal predictions.

And frankly, Russia can replace bodies; it cannot replace refineries or a lot of high end industrial plant.
 

Cherico

Well-known member


so drone strikes in russia are getting deeper if they strike tartarstan hard enough they can take a 3rd of russias oil off line.
 

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