#MeToo and Cancel Culture: Friday is bring your own torches and pitchforks day!

Valiran

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Once again much what we know of Christopher Columbus's time as a governor is from his political enemies who have every reason to distort the truth in order to gain favor/power. There are arguments that he made some "token" efforts to look after native rights and curtail 'small' abuses.

An asshole yes but the argument we was worse then the standards of the time is difficult to prove because what evidence we have comes from his worst enemies.
Not just his enemies, but his allies and even his own journals and letters corroborate the horrible things he did; not only toward the native population but also the Spaniards living under his rule. Apparently, this even included letting prepubescent girls being sold into sexual slavery, which I hope we can all agree is wrong no matter the era it happened in.

You also convinced me to look up some reliable sources on Columbus, and I have a list for anyone who might be interested:
  • Varela, C. (2006). La caída de Cristóbal Colón: el juicio de Bobadilla. Marcial Pons Historia.
  • Cristóbal Colón. Textos y documentos completos
  • Pons, F. M. (1992). The politics of forced Indian labour in La Española 1493–1520. Antiquity, 66(250), 130-139.
  • Cook, N. D. (2002). Sickness, starvation, and death in early Hispaniola. Journal of Interdisciplinary History, 32(3), 349-386.
  • A Short Account of the Destruction of the Indies
  • Szászdi, I. (2012). Castilian Justice and Columbian Injustice: the End of the Government of Christopher Columbus in Hispaniola. Journal on European History of Law, (2), 53-58.*
  • Deagan, K. A., & Cruxent, J. M. (2002). Columbus's outpost among the Taínos: Spain and America at La Isabela, 1493-1498. Yale University Press.
Fuck off. Columbus was a better man than any of his colleagues. He discovered America and brought news about it back to Spain. The statues stay, and whiners can go colonize Spain if they hate it so much here.

The nerve of these people, demonizing the heroes of the past because they are unPC, why don't y'all start digging up the graves of confiderate graves and put them on trial for slavery? Precedent for THAT is present after all.
First of all, is it too much to ask for civility? Telling me to "fuck off" is not conducive to productive discussion.

Second of all, "heroes of the past"? Columbus' expedition to the Americas and coming back to tell the Crown "Yes, there's land over there." doesn't make him a hero, it makes him one of the great explorers of the era. Nothing more, nothing less.

Everyone's a scumbag; it's just a matter of figuring out why. Everyone's also a saint, and to deny either is to deny the reality of human nature; that we are all equally capable of both good and evil. Cosby's history of sexual abuse is extensive; but he also was one of the few voices in entertainment to speak out against the degradation of family values within the black community for decades. Does that make up for what he did to those women? Of course not; but neither does what he did to them erase what good he did do.

Cosby is both a rapist, as well as "America's Dad"; but before either he is a human being, not a scapegoat for anyone's righteous indignation. He is serving his sentence; let's leave it at that.
You make a fair point, and after some consideration, I'm starting to think that it was a bad idea to destroy the statue. Better to just put it in a museum somewhere and raise another that commemorates someone from Baltimore. Let's see...

Samuel Chase, who signed the Declaration of Independence and served as a Supreme Court Justice until his death in 1811.

Johns Hopkins, a noted philanthropist who founded the hospital which bears his name, among other institutions.

John Pendleton Kennedy, who served as both Secretary of the Navy and as a Representative for Maryland. Also a noted abolitionist and proponent of religious tolerance.

William Paca, another signatory of the Declaration of Independence and served as a Representative, Delegate to the First and Second Continental Congresses, and as a judge.

Elizabeth Ann Seton, the first person from what would become the United States to be canonized by the Catholic Church.

Andrew Sterett, a naval officer during the Barbary Wars...and captain of the USS Enterprise.😁

Yeah, this is a problem I have with the...black and white, view of the world being pushed by all the activists these days. It's like saying one mistake is enough to make every good thing a historical figure has done meaningless. It completely ignores factors like the context of the time, literally judging them by the values of our time which simply did not and would never have applied to their time. I mean...the logical conclusion of such a...oblique, point of view is essentially the same train of logic that supports Hitler was a x, so if you're an x as well, you must be like Hitler.
I believe that demonizing and whitewashing are two sides of a coin minted from lies. It's better to take a "warts and all" view of history; do your utmost to be as factual as possible and admit the limits of the information we have. Present the facts as clearly and without bias as possible, and let people judge for themselves whether or not they want to admire someone.
 

Terthna

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You make a fair point, and after some consideration, I'm starting to think that it was a bad idea to destroy the statue. Better to just put it in a museum somewhere and raise another that commemorates someone from Baltimore. Let's see...
If I could make a further point, whatever is to be done with any statue should be decided with a vote from the community; not the will of a violent mob. Because it renders the social contract, the very legitimacy of the state over the individual, null and void, and teaches people that they only way to get what they want, is through violence.
 

Urabrask Revealed

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First of all, is it too much to ask for civility?
Yes.

"I insult your historical figures, I demand you erase your culture and history for *justice*, I tear down your statues because they are *offensive*, but for good's sake, let's stay civil!"

How about you piss off? Your breed has shown they will never stop until all *white* history has been wiped from the books, and I will be damned if you are given even one inch.

So I repeat myself: Fuck off!
 
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Lanmandragon

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Yes.

"I insult your historical figures, I demand you erase your culture and history for *justice*, I tear down your statues because they are *offensive*, but for good's sake, let's stay civil!"

How about you piss off? Your breed has shown they will never stop until all *white* history has been wiped from the books, and I will be damned if you are given even one inch.

So I repeat myself: Fuck off!
Sure but cold calculating anger not hot irrational anger that's a self own.
 

LifeisTiresome

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Yes.

"I insult your historical figures, I demand you erase your culture and history for *justice*, I tear down your statues because they are *offensive*, but for good's sake, let's stay civil!"

How about you piss off? Your breed has shown they will never stop until all *white* history has been wiped from the books, and I will be damned if you are given even one inch.

So I repeat myself: Fuck off!
You are getting it Urabrask. Arguing with leftists is a waste of time. They already have their minds made up. They will never apply fairness, context or nuance to your historical figures. But if arabs or Ottomans did horrible shit to the native americans or whoever, they would excuse it and speak of nuance and context. Its all bullshit

Also, hilarious to hear of leftist speaking of civility when I recall them speaking of that being bad last year I believe.
 

Husky_Khan

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Yes.

"I insult your historical figures, I demand you erase your culture and history for *justice*, I tear down your statues because they are *offensive*, but for good's sake, let's stay civil!"

How about you piss off? Your breed has shown they will never stop until all *white* history has been wiped from the books, and I will be damned if you are given even one inch.

So I repeat myself: Fuck off!
I'll be honest, it does come off a little hostile. I don't think he was trying to troll you or was acting intentionally obtuse. Just stated his opinion. I think tearing down the statue of Columbus was stupid as well and agree that for many of the rioters it's an attempt at reframing and erasing history but Valiran's initial post in and of itself seemed fair enough.

If you end up talking to a wall, then it's a wall. But he hasn't seemed to call you names or strawman or red herring your arguments yet and hasn't compared you to a War Crimes denier or Sex Crimes apologist or even act particular smug yet so I would choose civility in this case unless there's a reason not to. ;)
 

Hastur of Carcosa

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Yes.

"I insult your historical figures, I demand you erase your culture and history for *justice*, I tear down your statues because they are *offensive*, but for good's sake, let's stay civil!"

How about you piss off? Your breed has shown they will never stop until all *white* history has been wiped from the books, and I will be damned if you are given even one inch.

So I repeat myself: Fuck off!
You are getting it Urabrask. Arguing with leftists is a waste of time. They already have their minds made up. They will never apply fairness, context or nuance to your historical figures. But if arabs or Ottomans did horrible shit to the native americans or whoever, they would excuse it and speak of nuance and context. Its all bullshit

Also, hilarious to hear of leftist speaking of civility when I recall them speaking of that being bad last year I believe.

Look guys I know I'm in no position of athority, but if the lines are drawn and the minds have already been made up then would it be better to just shut up about the subject entirely.there is not going to be a war, no one is going to duel pistols on the field of honor, the revolution will not be televised. all this threatening insulting, and shouting past each is just putting each other in a bad mood and is going to result in jack squat.

when I was growing up A common proverb was. "If you have nothing worthwhile to say to a person, then don't say anything."
 

LifeisTiresome

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Look guys I know I'm in no position of athority, but if the lines are drawn and the minds have already been made up then would it be better to just shut up about the subject entirely.there is not going to be a war, no one is going to duel pistols on the field of honor, the revolution will not be televised. all this threatening insulting, and shouting past each is just putting each other in a bad mood and is going to result in jack squat.

when I was growing up A common proverb was. "If you have nothing worthwhile to say to a person, then don't say anything."
I'm just commending Urabrask for finally stop giving a shit about leftist nonsense when it comes to historical figures.
 

LordsFire

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You are getting it Urabrask. Arguing with leftists is a waste of time. They already have their minds made up. They will never apply fairness, context or nuance to your historical figures. But if arabs or Ottomans did horrible shit to the native americans or whoever, they would excuse it and speak of nuance and context. Its all bullshit

Also, hilarious to hear of leftist speaking of civility when I recall them speaking of that being bad last year I believe.
Some leftists are only such because they're naive, or have never been outside of the echochamber. Some of them can be reasoned with, though it can still be frustrating because there's just so much worldview divergence.

They're not very likely to be he extremely loud and argumentative ones, though.
 

Valiran

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If I could make a further point, whatever is to be done with any statue should be decided with a vote from the community; not the will of a violent mob. Because it renders the social contract, the very legitimacy of the state over the individual, null and void, and teaches people that they only way to get what they want, is through violence.
And this is what convinced me. Have a like while I go correct my post.
 

CarlManvers2019

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If I could make a further point, whatever is to be done with any statue should be decided with a vote from the community; not the will of a violent mob. Because it renders the social contract, the very legitimacy of the state over the individual, null and void, and teaches people that they only way to get what they want, is through violence.
And this is what convinced me. Have a like while I go correct my post.
The question is, WHO is the Community, are you all ONE Nation ONE State or people from a bunch of different states who identify as being part of one nation

If said violent mob is in larger numbers than the "local community" then it wins out, especially if the locals don't speak out or are shouted down or even killed en masse
 

Valiran

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They're not very likely to be he extremely loud and argumentative ones, though.
That's true of basically everything, I think. Anyone who's behaving like that is in no mood for debate, at least for the moment. God knows I've believed one thing when I got riled up and become more amenable to discussing things after calming down.

The question is, WHO is the Community, are you all ONE Nation ONE State or people from a bunch of different states who identify as being part of one nation

If said violent mob is in larger numbers than the "local community" then it wins out, especially if the locals don't speak out or are shouted down or even killed en masse
I'd say "the community" would be the city of Baltimore. And I haven't seen any indication that the situation has become bad enough that we need to start worrying about the people of Baltimore being "killed en masse" for just discussing whether or not the statue ought to be taken down.
 
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CarlManvers2019

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I'd say "the community" would be the city of Baltimore. And I haven't seen any indication that the situation has become bad enough that we need to start worrying about the people of Baltimore being "killed en masse" for just discussing whether or not the statue ought to be taken down.
If the people of Baltimore outnumber the mob and say no, the mob can’t do anything about it except take it down illegally
 

PsihoKekec

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I reckon this article is quite topical

Narcissists, Psychopaths, and Manipulators Are More Likely To Engage in 'Virtuous Victim Signaling,' Says Study

New study links virtue signaling to "Dark Triad" traits. Being accused of "virtue signaling" might sound nice to the uninitiated, but spend much time on social media and you know that it's actually an accusation of insincerity. Virtue signalers are, essentially, phonies and showoffs—folks who adopt opinions and postures solely to garner praise and sympathy or whose good deeds are tainted by their need for everyone to see just how good they are. Combined with a culture that says only victimhood confers a right to comment on certain issues, it's a big factor in online pile-ons and one that certainly contributes to social media platforms being such a bummer sometimes.
 

CarlManvers2019

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I’d quote Hegel but I’m not a philosophy major. Eventually all things turn into their opposite. A becomes B which becomes C. What we are seeing is this dialectical principle on a civilizational scale in front of us.
A cycle of authoritarianism and libertarianism
 

Jaenera Targaryen

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I’d quote Hegel but I’m not a philosophy major. Eventually all things turn into their opposite. A becomes B which becomes C. What we are seeing is this dialectical principle on a civilizational scale in front of us.
Liberal democracy turns into fascism, huh? Must be deja vu for the folks in the Merkelreich Germany, huh?
 

Hlaalu Agent

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A cycle of authoritarianism and libertarianism
Liberal democracy turns into fascism, huh? Must be deja vu for the folks in the Merkelreich Germany, huh?
Don't worry if Aristotle is right, after a time of tyranny, we should return to the proper forms of government, maybe we can try to avoid the degeneration again and stick to the right form of the rule of many.
 
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