LGBT and the US Conservative Movement

And I find your naked zealotry deeply off putting, if not unsettling.
Your feelings do not heal those suffering from the last sodomite-induced plague, nor will they heal those who suffer and die from the next batch.

Imagine trying to explain yourself to one of them, particularly those on other continents who had absolutely nothing to do with the American sodomite pride movement.

"Look, uh, um.. I know you're in a lot of pain, and, you know, you're, uh, you have a while to live, but, um, it's not as long as, you know, maybe, you wanted it to be... but the people who brought you this disease, they're not evil. You just, you know, can't say things like that. It's, like, zealous, off putting.. even unsettling."
 
Am I recalling incorrectly that the primary scientific basis of transgenderism being both not a choice and not a "mere" mental disorder was a study showing their neurology had key aspects closer to the opposite sex? Or that a major aspect of the transgender community is using surgery and hormone supplements to force their anatomy to more closely correspond to the opposite sex?

What the fuck do you even mean by intersex if it isn't applicable to transgenderism? Because I have heard absolutely nothing of "intersex rights" as a distinct thing. Also, genderfluidity "is a thing", that directly requires the "because I say so" standard to at all be something one can tie any kind of policy to. To say nothing of nonbinaries.

You are absolutely correct about the neurology, but you are overlooking a key fact. Those are relatively recent scientific findings, whereas the history of medical treatments here goes back to mostly the 1950s and 60s. At the time that doctors and surgeons were setting out the treatment protocols for all of this, no one knew about the neurology and medical practice set a hard defining line between patients who were intersex and patients who were transsexual/transgender.

Intersex patients were defined on the basis of anatomical abnormalities in the gonads and/or external genitals, which were later understood to be the result of quite a few entirely unrelated genetic and hormonal causes. These cases were considered to be medical in nature, and the established protocols focused on enabling the patient to live as normal a life as possible by early detection and aggressive surgical and hormonal treatment. As I've mentioned in previous posts, the Reimer case essentially involved applying the standard treatment protocols for an intersex child -- immediate reconstructive surgical intervention followed by hormone treatments in puberty, combined with ongoing psychological care to enforce the assigned gender role.

Transgender patients were defined on the basis of not having any discernible physical abnormality, but exhibiting gender dysphoria. These cases were considered to be psychological in nature, and were initially treated as delusions to be "corrected" in pretty much exactly the manner that modern conservative activists want to go back to. However, such treatment was highly unsuccessful and caused incredibly high suicide rates, whereas even with the extremely crude and limited methods available as far back as the 1940s, transitioning produced much better results for the patient.

However, treatment protocols still treated transitioning as an extremely serious intervention which could only be accessed under extremely limited conditions including a hard minimum of two continuous years of regular psychotherapy, a confirming second opinion from a second psychotherapist, and only then being able to get an appointment with one of a tiny handful of specialist surgeons and paying for all of it out of pocket. Under the initial versions of these treatment protocols, it was standard practice for therapists to demand that patients demonstrate total compliance with mainstream gender roles, to the extreme of being required to quit "gender inappropriate" jobs and dress in an extremely stereotypical manner. Those measures have thankfully become a thing of the past, although the fundamental restrictions on transition therapy do in fact remain.

So the bottom line is -- and I agree this is both ironic and confusing -- that although both patient categories are in fact receiving largely the same actual surgical and hormonal treatment, the *protocols* are totally different. For an intersex patient, the protocols called for immediate, unrestricted surgical and hormonal treatment, preferably without the patient ever knowing about it, and in many cases without even the consent of the parents. For a transgender patient, the protocols called for the exact opposite: delayed, highly restricted treatment with multiple layers of gatekeeping even with patient consent.


Because I have heard absolutely nothing of "intersex rights" as a distinct thing.

It is a distinct thing, but it's an extremely obscure thing because it generally focused on patient advocacy and lobbying of healthcare providers rather than political action. Intersex rights advocacy focused on replacing the "immediate, forcible normalization" model of treatment with a patient consent and choice based model in which no medical intervention occurs until the patient is old enough to express a clear and unambiguous gender identity, after which medical treatment is provided to match that identity.

In 1997/1998, the double-barreled exposure of John Money's absolute dishonesty in falsifying the outcome of the Reimer case in the mainstream press by journalist John Colapinto and in academic journals by Dr. Milton Diamond was the critical landmark. It completely inverted the professional narrative from, "Patients are increasingly demanding X, but medical experts still recommend Y" to, "The Y treatment protocol was based on completely falsified evidence, we need to re-examine everything we thought we knew."

By 2006, two widely accepted medical journal articles laid out the so-called "Chicago Consensus" position, which pretty much is exactly what patient advocates had been pushing for: delayed treatment on a patient consent model. With the broad acceptance of the Chicago Consensus position as the treatment standard, intersex advocacy essentially declared mission accomplished and wrapped up.
 
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Remember when intersex people used to be called hermaphrodites and science didn't cater to social hysteria and pedophilia?

The term "hermaphrodite" was dropped from professional usage for a very simple reason that had nothing to do with anyone's social advocacy, one way or another: it was found that hermaphroditism rarely (if ever) occurs in mammals in the manner it is defined in other species, i.e. when a single individual has both male and female reproductive organs.

This actually happens in many other species; it's even the normal state of several known species. It does not happen in humans, therefore they stopped inaccurately using the term to refer to various medical conditions that superficically appeared to be hermaphroditism, but are now better understood.


Those people are not oppressed at all.

Until the Chicago Consensus became the standard for treatment, intersex patients were normally subjected to the exact same treatment as David Reimer. You denounced that very treatment as horrific butchery; but now you're turning around and claiming that it's not bad at all?
 
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...my good man, calm down.

This sort of rhetoric will have your position dismissed outright. I personally don't think being gay or promiscuous deserves death as a punishment for lifestyle choices. Chastise it if you must, but don't declare them to be an "abomination."

To be fair, language like "abomination" is Biblical. The thing is, it's used to refer to the act, not the people. And while sexual sin is described as deserving of death, a whole lot of other things (some of which some of the members here are engaging in) are also described as deserving of death.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
Romans 1:29-32 ESV

You know Jesus is not a hippy right? He insulted people he called them dogs, or children of the devil. So no calling them trannies is not a bridge to far or some kind of monstrous act that is unchristian. It’s a slang term that shortens the full term of what these crazy people call themselves.

Jesus used harsh language when addressing the Pharisees for the ways they abused and twisted God's Law, yes. That's not the same as using profanity and slurs. The t-word, as Alathon used it, is a slur. As would be the n-word, k-word, f-word, g-word, b-word. It is un-Christlike to speak in such a way. No matter who they are, you are still talking about someone made in the likeness of God.

Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Ephesians 5:5-6

How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness. The tongue is set among our members, staining the whole body, setting on fire the entire course of life, and set on fire by hell. For every kind of beast and bird, of reptile and sea creature, can be tamed and has been tamed by mankind, but no human being can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison. With it we bless our Lord and Father, and with it we curse people who are made in the likeness of God. From the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, these things ought not to be so. Does a spring pour forth from the same opening both fresh and salt water? Can a fig tree, my brothers, bear olives, or a grapevine produce figs? Neither can a salt pond yield fresh water.
James 3:6-12 ESV

>Post15 year old reddit meme Fedora tippers used to spam

>Calls self Christian

The absolute state of the Cuckservative.

“Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. For David says concerning him,

“‘I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’

“Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”


Acts 2:22-36 ESV
 
Intersex patients were defined on the basis of anatomical abnormalities in the gonads and/or external genitals, which were later understood to be the result of quite a few entirely unrelated genetic and hormonal causes. These cases were considered to be medical in nature, and the established protocols focused on enabling the patient to live as normal a life as possible by early detection and aggressive surgical and hormonal treatment.
We should also remember that nearly all of the causes for intersex birth defects are such horrific mutations that I would not be surprised if most intersex children ended up stillborn before they stop looking like a tadpole. The most impressive that most intersex people do in their lives is live long enough to be born. So removing any bits that might be cancerous is an entirely legitimate course of action.
 
Until the Chicago Consensus became the standard for treatment, intersex patients were normally subjected to the exact same treatment as David Reimer. You denounced that very treatment as horrific butchery; but now you're turning around and claiming that it's not bad at all?

Ah yes, the standard medical procedure whereupon doctors recommended hundreds of men and women born with a myriad of different and rare birth defects to psychologists who then made them dry hump their own siblings... 300767289228263424.png

Be less ridiculous...It's a tall order I know...but.


Thumping the bible at us, proves our point about you, not the reverse.
 
Thumping the bible at us, proves our point about you, not the reverse.

How can a young man keep his way pure?
By guarding it according to your word.
With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!
I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.
Blessed are you, O Lord; teach me your statutes!
With my lips I declare all the rules of your mouth.
In the way of your testimonies I delight as much as in all riches.
I will meditate on your precepts and fix my eyes on your ways.

I will delight in your statutes; I will not forget your word.
Psalm 119:9‭-‬16 ESV
 
Ah yes, the standard medical procedure whereupon doctors recommended hundreds of men and women born with a myriad of different and rare birth defects to psychologists who then made them dry hump their own siblings...

Be less ridiculous...It's a tall order I know...but.

You're literally calling me ridiculous and delusional for presenting the facts of the matter.

It was in fact standard practice to surgically alter intersex babies at birth (or as soon as diagnosed; some intersex conditions do not emerge until puberty), and then to follow up with hormone treatment and psychotherapy for the purpose of enforcing their assigned gender development. The only thing Money did that was out of the ordinary in that time and place, was applying this treatment to a surgically-damaged biological male instead of to a child who was diagnosed intersex and then assigned female by a surgeon.
 
False piety moment

STUcromwellO.jpg

You're literally calling me ridiculous and delusional for presenting the facts of the matter.

It was in fact standard practice to surgically alter intersex babies at birth (or as soon as diagnosed; some intersex conditions do not emerge until puberty), and then to follow up with hormone treatment and psychotherapy for the purpose of enforcing their assigned gender development. The only thing Money did that was out of the ordinary in that time and place, was applying this treatment to a surgically-damaged biological male instead of to a child who was diagnosed intersex and then assigned female by a surgeon.

You get called ridiculous for doing what you always do, gaslight, lie and misrepresent shit. You basically use the Groomer playbook to try and obfuscate shit.

I was remarking that that deformed fuckers were never oppressed and babbling about intersex rights is a fiction.

You responded by basically sperging about surgical procedures done to them then ascribed the Money procedure which you damn well know involved pederasty.

It's what you do mix hysterical reactionary posts with pedantry and it fools no one.
 
We should also remember that nearly all of the causes for intersex birth defects are such horrific mutations that I would not be surprised if most intersex children ended up stillborn before they stop looking like a tadpole. The most impressive that most intersex people do in their lives is live long enough to be born. So removing any bits that might be cancerous is an entirely legitimate course of action.

Hang on, which intersex conditions are you thinking of? Because I can't think of *any* of them that are actually a mild case of a lethal-at-full-severity mutation, and Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia is the only one that can cause medical emergencies. And CAH is weird because it is an intersex condition when it happens in genetic females, but *not* an intersex condition when it happens in genetic males, although it's medically significant in both.
 
And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
"Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
"Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
"Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
"Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Matthew 5:2‭-‬12 ESV

 
Yeah comparing yourself to Jesus and martyred prophets and throwing Bible passages at me as if you thought I was a demon while continuing to do this as a means of covering for your getting caught misrepresenting shit is totally how you invalidate my criticisms of the eternal Rino.

Tomas de Torquemada did nothing wrong.

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,

"For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 8:31‭-‬39 ESV
 
@Stargazer, quoting nothing but Bible passages isn't helping your argument and often indicates that the person doing so doesn't have any rebuttal except for "but the Bible says this" when it's clear to those who have actually read the whole thing know that many parts of the Bible contradict other parts of the Bible.
Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs. For to which of the angels did God ever say,

"You are my Son,
today I have begotten you"?

Or again,

"I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son"?

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,

"Let all God's angels worship him."

Of the angels he says,

"He makes his angels winds,
and his ministers a flame of fire."

But of the Son he says
,

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

And,

"You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end."

And to which of the angels has he ever said,

"Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet"?

Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
Hebrews 1:1‭-‬14 ESV

It's how God has spoken.
 
You're assuming that the person you're debating with believes the Bible is the exact word of God instead of either a complete work of fiction or an imperfect record of the messages God actually sent us.


Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:12‭-‬17 ESV

That's my assumption
 
He's literally just spamming the thread because he thinks he can stonewall me into silence. This isn't about proving his faith, it's about salvaging wounded pride. Homeboy doesn't like that most people don't care about being PC.

Edit- he's more or less shitting up the thread to stop criticism and halt debate because he objects to the tone of the debate itself.

That's concern trolling to derail a thread and I'm pretty sure that's against the rules.
 
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He's literally just spamming the thread because he thinks he can stonewall me into silence. This isn't about proving his faith, it's about salvaging wounded pride. Homeboy doesn't like that most people don't care about being PC.

Edit- he's more or less shitting up the thread to stop criticism and halt debate because he objects to the tone of the debate itself.

That's concern trolling to derail a thread and I'm pretty sure that's against the rules.
If you'd like to continue debating and make a response to what I said here I'm all for it. I'm glad to hear you're concerned with keeping the thread on track and following the rules.
 

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