Imperium of Man vs Galactic Empire

[Scooby Doo]

Faster ftl and communications.

In otherworldly they can detect, analyze, prepare, launch and recall a strike against an Imperium world controlling the battles pace.

So a thousand ISDs can engage and destroy many times their total number piecemeal style while the Imperium is sluggishly trying to respond to long out dated information.

The Galactic Empire has never invaded individual world with a thousand ISD's the most was a few dozen ISD's at Endor. GE is fast but their doctrine has them fight pretty inefficiently, they're going to be using ISD's supported by garbage auxillary not hundreds of ISD's per planet.

They could adjust this strategy but with only 12,000 ISD to spare they'll probably not going to do this for some time, and one they do it's still going to take pure ISD fleets month to years to conquer a planet if they aren't orbitally bombarding it and any planet that's worth defending will have defenses against ISD bombardment.

Imperium is a Turtle but it's a snapping turtle going up against a mouse.

Again though the Imperium doesn’t have that many capital ships either it’s not like they have millions of dauntless or retribution classes. They probably also have a few thousand.

The Imperium doesn't need that many Capital ships because their Strike Cruisers the most common Imperium naval ship are enough to take out 95% of the Naval Composition of the GE.

That's the issue people are ignoring, the vast majority of the Empire's fleets is literally USELESS, they will have to revamp their entire navy to be able to win an offensive battle because 12,000 ISD's aren't enough to take out the Imperium, where as the Imperium has hundreds of thousands of ships that can take out GE worlds and their more often than not mediocre defenses.

 

[King Arts]

The Galactic Empire has never invaded individual world with a thousand ISD's the most was a few dozen ISD's at Endor. GE is fast but their doctrine has them fight pretty inefficiently, they're going to be using ISD's supported by garbage auxillary not hundreds of ISD's per planet.

They could adjust this strategy but with only 12,000 ISD to spare they'll probably not going to do this for some time, and one they do it's still going to take pure ISD fleets month to years to conquer a planet if they aren't orbitally bombarding it and any planet that's worth defending will have defenses against ISD bombardment.

Imperium is a Turtle but it's a snapping turtle going up against a mouse.


The Imperium doesn't need that many Capital ships because their Strike Cruisers the most common Imperium naval ship are enough to take out 95% of the Naval Composition of the GE.

That's the issue people are ignoring, the vast majority of the Empire's fleets is literally USELESS, they will have to revamp their entire navy to be able to win an offensive battle because 12,000 ISD's aren't enough to take out the Imperium, where as the Imperium has hundreds of thousands of ships that can take out GE worlds and their more often than not mediocre defenses.

Dude in battle fleet gothic anything less than a dauntless is shit and I don’t bother using them.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Dude in battle fleet gothic anything less than a dauntless is shit and I don’t bother using them.

Bruh the Scouting Cruiser of the Imperium is the equivalent of a Galactic Empire capital ship.

Like you name any decent Imperial Navy ships that are not of Star Destroyer classification?

This is the Light Cruiser of the Galactic Empire, 400 meter long, 3 Tie Fighters and 8 pairs of Turbo Lasers.


Absolute garbage

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

The Galactic Empire has never invaded individual world with a thousand ISD's the most was a few dozen ISD's at Endor.

Well, the question would be if they ever had the reason to send a thousand ships or not. For virtually the entire time we see them their fighting guerilla Rebels not fighting a stand up fight. Even Endor was first and foremost a trap requiring stealth and secrecy rather than sheer number of ships.

What we do know is they have the numbers to deploy in fleets of hundreds if not thousands of ISDs if they desire too.

they're going to be using ISD's supported by garbage auxillary

Not really sure if dreadnought heavy cruisers, Victory Star Destroyers, and other lesser ships would be "garbage". Fighters are used in ship combat in 40k after all. While Imperium fighters are huge, I don't think they'd be bigger than carrack cruisers or VSD.

They could adjust this strategy but with only 12,000 ISD to spare they'll probably not going to do this for some time

I don't think using more ISD's together is going to require much longer than the first couple of engagements. Further with the flexibility their maneuverability they could deploy the majority of their ISDs confident they can be recalled back long before they are needed.

Conversely it's the Imperium that will be handicapped and forced to withhold much of its fleet to guard its worlds since the Empire can strike anywhere.

one they do it's still going to take pure ISD fleets month to years to conquer a planet if they aren't orbitally bombarding it and any planet that's worth defending will have defenses against ISD bombardment.

I'm not sure there's anything a 40k world has in terms of defensive that an Imperial fleets hasn't seen. And unlike the Imperium, the GE have and can devote the resources to crack them wide open then reduce the world to slag.

 

[Husky_Khan]

You don't need a thousand ISD's to BDZ a planet with orbital bombardment. You might need loads of ships to actually take a serious world or system in an Imperial Sector, but like with the Galactic Empire, most of the worlds don't have huge Imperial Navy shipyards there or anything. But unlike the GE the Imperium doesn't have planetary shields to protect them. In 40K Orks and Tyranids and Tau etc like to invade the worlds for various reasons, whilst the GE wouldn't really have the need to do so in most cases if this is a total war type situation.

The Imperium can protect many of its important worlds, but it's already got a reaction time to threats that can span from weeks to decades and the Galactic Empire with its superior FTL and FTL Communication can play havoc with the Imperium reaction time until the Imperium of Man juggernaut finally starts chugging forward towards the Core Worlds and the like the Galactic Empire would feel obligated to defend.

 

[Scooby Doo]

Well, the question would be if they ever had the reason to send a thousand ships or not. For virtually the entire time we see them their fighting guerilla Rebels not fighting a stand up fight. Even Endor was first and foremost a trap requiring stealth and secrecy rather than sheer number of ships.

The only time we've seen a thousand ships or higher in any canon (Legends or Disney) attack a planet was the Battle of Coruscant, it's reasonable to say that they won't be doing anything like at least for the next couple years.

The doctrine in Star Wars prefers lots of smaller fleet attacking several planets at once which would be horrible wake up call for the GE, they'd lose thousands of ships before they realize the planets are too well defended.

What we do know is they have the numbers to deploy in fleets of hundreds if not thousands of ISDs if they desire too.

I mean by that logic the Imperium kinda does too 🤷

Honestly the Imperium has equivalent ships but exponentially more heavy hitters

Not really sure if dreadnought heavy cruisers, Victory Star Destroyers, and other lesser ships would be "garbage". Fighters are used in ship combat in 40k after all. While Imperium fighters are huge, I don't think they'd be bigger than carrack cruisers or VSD.

Imperium fighters are the equivalent of Galactic Empire cruisers and yes they are still fodder

Dreadnought Cruisers have 50 Turbo Lasers and are a mid range ship smaller than the smallest Scout ships of the Imperium.

Star Destroyers are actually Star Destroyers so it doesn't change the fact anything that isn't one is dead weight.

I don't think using more ISD's together is going to require much longer than the first couple of engagements. Further with the flexibility their maneuverability they could deploy the majority of their ISDs confident they can be recalled back long before they are needed.

Literally fanon, the GE has never been that competent or efficient it'd be like me arguing the Imperium would just use precog to be wherever the Empire will be.

The GE couldn't mobilize hundreds of ships to stop the Rebels from escaping even with Vader himself present and minutes to hours of fighting.

Not mentioning that without Hyperspace coordinates the GE wouldn't be nearly as fast outside of their mapped territory.

Conversely it's the Imperium that will be handicapped and forced to withhold much of its fleet to guard its worlds since the Empire can strike anywhere.

It wouldn't need to hold most of its fleet though, the light weights of the Imperium are on par with the Galactic Empire's heaviest hitting ships.

The Galactic Empire will ONLY be achieving phyric victories which will wear their Naval strength down.

I'm not sure there's anything a 40k world has in terms of defensive that an Imperial fleets hasn't seen. And unlike the Imperium, the GE have and can devote the resources to crack them wide open then reduce the world to slag.

Imperium planets will have th ability to shoot ISD's down, ISD's either have trash range or doctrine that consistently put them close to planets.

They can't BDZ a planet from far off distances they're always close, close enough that Defense Lasers will mulch them.


They'll be a lot more planetary defenses than there will be 12,000 ISD's and we're not considering the actual Defense fleets that WILL beat the Imperial Navy more often than not, those 12,000 will be reduced to hundreds in months with the way the Imperials fight.

 

[King Arts]

The Imperiums normal forces that aren’t space marines don’t fight any better than the galactic empire.

 

[Scooby Doo]

The Imperiums normal forces that aren’t space marines don’t fight any better than the galactic empire.

Cap.

The Galactic Empire infantry have exponentially more poor ends than the Imperium, both sides have bad ends but the Galactic Empire is literally designed to sabotage itself with backstabbing Officers.

Not to mention leadership, Gulliman will care about efficiency Palpatine and Vader would only care about results even if it means thousands of ships destroyed to take one barren planet.

 

[King Arts]

Cap.

The Galactic Empire infantry have exponentially more poor ends than the Imperium, both sides have bad ends but the Galactic Empire is literally designed to sabotage itself with backstabbing Officers.

Not to mention leadership, Gulliman will care about efficiency Palpatine and Vader would only care about results even if it means thousands of ships destroyed to take one barren planet.

The Imperium has even more infighting and traitors than the galactic empire which is ironic. You are right about Guilliman though. But he just got back it will take time for him to unfuck things.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

The Imperiums normal forces that aren’t space marines don’t fight any better than the galactic empire.

Compared to the nightmarish shit they have to fight yeah they don't have the best showings. But Storm troopers would perform as well as angry toddlers against an Ork Waagh or Tyranid incursion

 

[ATP]

I don't think the Empire could avoid a collapse with the sort of horrific losses taking Imperium worlds would entail.

They do not need to take them,only burn from orbit.Or,even better,turn sun into supernova.They have technology for that.

 

[Scooby Doo]

The Imperium has even more infighting and traitors than the galactic empire which is ironic. You are right about Guilliman though. But he just got back it will take time for him to unfuck things.

Disagree, the vast majority infighting due to Chaos without their involvement it would be significantly less so the GE would have more infighting and traitors.

Mean while you got dozens of Imperial characters defecting to Rebels and losing to teddy bears with spears in both Legends and Canon.

The only decent feats for the Empire competency is when they still used Clones 😂 again this is the same organization that self destructs itself in Operation Cinder.

It's designed to fall apart if Palpatine dies on purpose.

They do not need to take them,only burn from orbit.Or,even better,turn sun into supernova.They have technology for that.

Unlike most backwater worlds the Empire has BDZ'd the Imperium has Surface to Space anti capital ship weapons, those ships will get blown up.


Even causing Stars to explode rely on Mac Guffin's and wonder weapons that weren't available by ROTJ.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

The only time we've seen a thousand ships or higher in any canon (Legends or Disney) attack a planet was the Battle of Coruscant,

So, by your own statement, we have evidence the Galactic Empire can marshal a thousand ships for an operation should the situation call for it disproving your earlier, baseless assertion.

The doctrine in Star Wars prefers lots of smaller fleet attacking several planets at once

Which makes sense against a peer opponent that can maneuver and react as quickly as you can. Obviously that wouldn't be applicable in this situation.

I mean by that logic the Imperium kinda does too

I haven't really discussed Imperium fleet numbers, its largely academic since its doubtful they could ever coordinate their fleets to take advantage.

The idea is that even if the Imperium, in total ship strength, were four or five times the Imperial fleet size the GE would still be able to achieve tactical numerical superiority and just overwhelm them. So the closer the Imperium is to parity with the Imperial fleet the worse the situation is for the Imperium.

Imperium fighters are the equivalent of Galactic Empire cruisers and yes they are still fodder

Here makes mention of a Fury Interceptor being 70 meters while a Carrack light cruiser is 350 so since ton for ton the two sides are equalized a carrack cruiser should do more than a bit better than a Imperium fighter. Further the point is if they can deal damage to Imperium ships, which they should, then there is little reason not to use them. It isn't like the Empire cares about individual losses and such ships already have ships and crews. Their cost would be negligible compared to not using them

Literally fanon, the GE has never been that competent or efficient

Actually we do have evidence the Empire can and will scale up ISDs to fit the mission parameters. Witness their use of 3 above tattoonie versus six above Hoth to approximately 30 at the battle of Endor.

I mean hell there should be Clone Wars veterans still serving in the fleet who remember the battle of Coruscant so the idea of amassing huge fleets shouldn't be that alien to them. Assuming the Imperial fleet is crewed by anything more than chimps would make it the logical move.

The GE couldn't mobilize hundreds of ships to stop the Rebels from escaping even with Vader himself present and minutes to hours of fighting.

Which proves what, exactly? The Empire can't conjure up hundreds up ships within mere minutes?

Not mentioning that without Hyperspace coordinates the GE wouldn't be nearly as fast outside of their mapped territory.

Actually in Disney canon it isn't that difficult to map a new hyperspace lane. I can post you the quote if you like but suffice it to say they will handle that far easier than the Imperium will venturing beyond the Astronomican.

It wouldn't need to hold most of its fleet though, the light weights of the Imperium are on par with the Galactic Empire's heaviest hitting ships.

In any rational analysis, yes it would. Its fighting a foe that can attack anywhere virtually instantly from its perspective. Every system it doesn't want to just vanish would require fortification enough to ward off an attack by hundreds if not thousands of ISDs or tens of thousands of lesser vessels which starts eating up your navy very, very quickly.

Your argument is essentially bragging how a King Tiger can take out so many Shermans while ignoring bigger canons and thicker armor rarely are as pivotal as getting where you need to be, when you need to be in enough quantity to get the job done.

So you posted evidence proving planet based defense systems are a thing in Star Wars...and Star Wars one are far more effective having a magic disable ship ion cannon to a pedestrian Laser canon.

They can't BDZ a planet from far off distances they're always close, close enough that Defense Lasers will mulch them.

Actually since they can drop out of hyperspace essentially in range for a bombardment, ala Hoth, considering Imperium reaction times and sensor tech it isn't a certainty they'd even have time to get a shot off before they planet was being bombarded.
Further you don't need an ISD to bombard a planet. I believe a Victory can do it nearly as good so isn't like the 25,000 ISD are the only pool they can draw from. Not to mention, unlike the Imperium, the Empire can actually replace it losses where as the Imperium takes decades to make a new ship when it can. Obviously the number of old ships in their fleet suggest they have a limited industry.

 

[King Arts]

Disagree, the vast majority infighting due to Chaos without their involvement it would be significantly less so the GE would have more infighting and traitors.

Mean while you got dozens of Imperial characters defecting to Rebels and losing to teddy bears with spears in both Legends and Canon.

The only decent feats for the Empire competency is when they still used Clones 😂 again this is the same organization that self destructs itself in Operation Cinder.

It's designed to fall apart if Palpatine dies on purpose.

Unlike most backwater worlds the Empire has BDZ'd the Imperium has Surface to Space anti capital ship weapons, those ships will get blown up.


Even causing Stars to explode rely on Mac Guffin's and wonder weapons that weren't available by ROTJ.

Most traitors are chaos yes but there are still many who aren’t severan dominate for instance.

The galactic empire does not have an ongoing succession in its borders. Yes they have rebels but those are insurgents and terrorists. They haven’t taken part of the empire’s territory called themselves independent and told the empire to “come here if your hard enough.”

The Imperium has that.

 

[ATP]

Disagree, the vast majority infighting due to Chaos without their involvement it would be significantly less so the GE would have more infighting and traitors.

Mean while you got dozens of Imperial characters defecting to Rebels and losing to teddy bears with spears in both Legends and Canon.

The only decent feats for the Empire competency is when they still used Clones 😂 again this is the same organization that self destructs itself in Operation Cinder.

It's designed to fall apart if Palpatine dies on purpose.

Unlike most backwater worlds the Empire has BDZ'd the Imperium has Surface to Space anti capital ship weapons, those ships will get blown up.


Even causing Stars to explode rely on Mac Guffin's and wonder weapons that weren't available by ROTJ.

And IoM IG would lost to any modern army.And Stormtroopers were uneficient hunting Luke,but when they take Leia frigate or rebel base on ice world they go through rebels like knife through butter.

And,IoM is designated as pretext to explain why dudes with lasers fight in cool melee.That is why they MUST be idiots.Becouse it is only logical explanation.

Most traitors are chaos yes but there are still many who aren’t severan dominate for instance.

The galactic empire does not have an ongoing succession in its borders. Yes they have rebels but those are insurgents and terrorists. They haven’t taken part of the empire’s territory called themselves independent and told the empire to “come here if your hard enough.”

The Imperium has that.

Exactly

 

[Blasterbot]

on ships here is what the Brave AI summerizer says YMMV

When comparing Star Wars ships to 40k ships, there are some differences to consider.1 While 40k ships have incredible firepower and combat speed, they can take months or even years to cross a solar segmentum to go from system to system, whereas Star Wars ships can cross the galaxy entirely in about 3 weeks, even with the slowest of Hyperdrives.4 Warp anomalies slow down 40k ships, but they make excellent time on a known and clear shipping lane, similar to well-known Star Wars trade routes. 40k ships like the World Engine have such incredible firepower and combat speed that they would pulverize 99% of Star Wars vessels. However, super weapons like StarKiller base would be tough to defeat, but it's easier to wipe out planets in 40k.0 If overdriving the warp engine is allowed, IoM would win.2 Star Wars ships outside of FTL travel are sluggish compared to the IoM, who's battleships engage in combat at 0.5-0.7c according to books.3

so the claim that the FTL of SW is superior is really just because of warp anomalies. something that is if not erased rendered far less... Chaotic now. basically the only real advantage that the GE has is in their wunder weapons programs. something that comes at very heavy expense, has very limited production, and bluntly competes with the building of their actually good ships.

40k is just bigger. that is what they do. SW has some one offs that compete. but while they may turn the tide of a battle they aren't gonna turn the war around.

smallest IoM ship to consider is their destroyers. 1km. anything smaller than a venator is smaller than it. next up we got the frigates. they are 2.3 km or so. meaning they outmass an ISD by like a third. light cuisers go from 3-5 KM. meaning they are bigger than anything that isn't a super star destroyer. all the battleships clock in at at least 10 km sure they are half the size of an executor class but that thing is kinda crap in all honestly. they seem more set up to be a flag ship for an invading force than an actual ship of the line. Glorianas though match that size and are more common if still rare and actually use their size to mount some impressive weapons.

Size may not be everything here but it does show that what the GE considers a solid battleship is what the IoM would call a frigate or light cruiser that decided to try and be a pocket battleship at best.

Another thing to factor in would be this is GE era starwars. so 1st order stuff and things from the legends timeline that got made later are out of consideration. they do got a death star though to consider. maybe even the 2nd one to consider.

in the end here IoM would win every straight up engagement in space. maybe depending on how you slice the feats the GE could do guerrilla warfare in space raiding and BDZ every IoM world they come across. though that depends on superior FTL capabilities that a calmer warp doesn't guarantee. once engaged IoM is faster, better armed, better armored, bigger, and hell more willing to ram and board than the GE would be. I can't emphasize it enough the Frigates are comparable it the ISDs. and far more common.

and none of this accounts for the spess marines who would be rare but highly mobile and effective trouble shooters and the mechanicus who would be contributing their own super ships to the cause.

also in terms of swag? well IoM wins hands down.

 

[Scottty]

Compared to the nightmarish shit they have to fight yeah they don't have the best showings. But Storm troopers would perform as well as angry toddlers against an Ork Waagh or Tyranid incursion

Imperial Storm Troopers lose against teddy-bears with stone age weapons.
Maybe they'd find it easier to actually land shots on an Ork charging at them with a chainsaw - bigger target after all.

 

[Blasterbot]

Imperial Storm Troopers lose against teddy-bears with stone age weapons.
Maybe they'd find it easier to actually land shots on an Ork charging at them with a chainsaw - bigger target after all.

unlikely the orks are also stronger, tougher, and even understand the wonders of dakka so ranged weapons are a concern. they aren't standing targets that barely can shoot back like the droids in the clone wars. might be about as accurate though.

 

[Jormungandr]

...Yeah, I can imagine Stormtroopers being cut in half by batshit crazy Orks with chainsaws.

 

[Aldarion]

Proof that Imperium ships outrange the empire? ICS calcs are pretty good and battle fleet gothic calcs can be pretty low.

ICS calcs fly in the face of canon however, so the only question here is whether Battlefleet Gothic calcs are higher or lower than Star Wars canon calcs (as Battlefleet Gothic and other official 40k material also override any 40k novels or other media).

As for Star Wars canon calcs, we have this scene:


Note that the Falcon is still among the Rebel fleet at that point, engaging Imperial starfighters attacking the Rebel ships - so range from Falcon to Imperial fleet is also the range of Rebel capital ships to Imperial fleet. In the next scene, Imperial officer reports that the fleet is "in attack position now", to which Piett responds with "hold here" - implying that fleets are out of the range.

Using focal length calculations as seen here and here, we have Executor's width as 35% of the screen (414 / 1186 px at my screencap). Executor is 4 750 meters wide, although this would imply width of some 6 470 meters.

While sites have calculations for both focal lengths, I have found information that Star Wars original trilogy was filmed in 35 mm film, which actually has only 22 mm for images themselves. With Star Wars having been filmed in 2,35:1 aspect ratio, scene height would be 9,36 mm.

With 22 mm width, Executor's width of 35% of the screen would be 7,68 mm.

So with that, range would be as follows:

OD / 4750 m = 50 mm / 7,68 mm
OD = (50 mm / 7,68 mm) x 6470 m
OD = 6,51 x 4750 m
OD = 30 924 m

OD / 6470 m = 50 mm / 7,68 mm
OD = (50 mm / 7,68 mm) x 6470 m
OD = 6,51 x 6470 m
OD = 42 120 m

So Star Wars weapons ranges are around 31 - 42 km for capital ship combat.

Again though the Imperium doesn’t have that many capital ships either it’s not like they have millions of dauntless or retribution classes. They probably also have a few thousand.

My calculations linked below put them at ~1 million warships of all sizes, of which 60 000 of battleships and battlecruisers each, and 300 000 cruisers.

How Large is the Imperial Navy in Warhammer 40k

Warhammer 40 000 is my favorite science fiction setting by far. In large part it is because it is not science fiction, but rather fantasy with sci-fi veneer. It has it all: heroes and villains, kni…

warfantasy.wordpress.com

So overall Imperium should hilariously outmass the Empire... but the Empire can concentrate its forces better and attack more quickly.