Imperium of Man vs Galactic Empire

[Blasterbot]

once again with a calm warp the FTL is comparable between the two. unless the force can interfere with the warp they aren't going to be at a massive FTL disadvantage. at worst put them a class or two behind the ISD drive at best for comparison.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Dont underestimate the industrial capacity of the Empire. The ability to manufacture death stars at the same time as essentially replacing the entire republic fleet with new ships in a fairly short timeframe speaks of an immense industrial potential.

 

[Blasterbot]

Dont underestimate the industrial capacity of the Empire. The ability to manufacture death stars at the same time as essentially replacing the entire republic fleet with new ships in a fairly short timeframe speaks of an immense industrial potential.

IoM also has a massive industrial capacity. at least as good and arguably better considering how well they can absorb losses.

 

[ATP]

Imperial Storm Troopers lose against teddy-bears with stone age weapons.
Maybe they'd find it easier to actually land shots on an Ork charging at them with a chainsaw - bigger target after all.

plotschield.The same stormtroopers take Lei frigate loosing 4 KIA,and rebel ice base with little loses.
They were weak when they fought Luke or his friends.And none of them would fight for IoM.

 

[Scottty]

IoM also has a massive industrial capacity. at least as good and arguably better considering how well they can absorb losses.

Do they?
From what I've been told, their massive ornate battleships take centuries to build, and run on legacy technology that they no longer properly understand, even if they can still build more it it.

Contrast this with what one SWverse world (Exegol) can churn out in a couple of decades...

 

[ATP]

Another reason why IoM must lost - they still built the same stuff they built 10.000 before,or worst.
When GE is inventing new stuff every decade.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

IoM also has a massive industrial capacity. at least as good and arguably better considering how well they can absorb losses.

i dunno, it took the GE 4 years to build the second deathstar, while building many other ships besides. Could IOM match that?

 

[Blasterbot]

Do they?
From what I've been told, their massive ornate battleships take centuries to build, and run on legacy technology that they no longer properly understand, even if they can still build more it it.

Contrast this with what one SWverse world (Exegol) can churn out in a couple of decades...

the old stuff was better and irreplaceable. there is still a lot of production going on though. it is better to think of DaoT era stuff as precursor relics. stuff from 30k sometimes can still be made in limited quantities. sometimes it can't be made at all any more. there is still quite a bit of space ship production going on though. it is a galactic scale empire that has a lot of attrition in space. they would not have lasted 10,000 years without it.

Another reason why IoM must lost - they still built the same stuff they built 10.000 before,or worst.
When GE is inventing new stuff every decade.

not really though. DoAT era stuff would stomp the GE even harder true. it doesn't change that the IoM is way ahead of SW. we aren't really counting where the GE could be in 100 or 1000 years. we are taking what they got at their peak power as the galactic empire. so nothing after endor. heck with Rowboat in charge he is actually for the first time in a very long time getting the IoM to advance not just hold on against the endless hordes of Chaos, orks, tyranids and a myriad of other horrors. you can argue that they must lose. but if they have been building the same lasgun for 10000 years and it is a damn good lasgun learning to eak out 1.5% more power out of a bow by using a specific wood native only to kashyyyk or something isn't really gonna help. the las gun is just better.

i dunno, it took the GE 4 years to build the second deathstar, while building many other ships besides. Could IOM match that?

wouldn't know offhand. both got entire worlds dedicated for manufacturing and shipyards. pretty sure IoM has more though. 40k tends to go crazy with big numbers. death star while neat isn't that big of a game changer. it taking 4 years to make one and the resources that could have made a thousand or more ISDs? kind of a bad trade.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

Imperial Storm Troopers lose against teddy-bears with stone age weapons.
Maybe they'd find it easier to actually land shots on an Ork charging at them with a chainsaw - bigger target after all.

Those guys were also Palpatines "Most elite forces"

 

[Scottty]

the old stuff was better and irreplaceable. there is still a lot of production going on though. it is better to think of DaoT era stuff as precursor relics. stuff from 30k sometimes can still be made in limited quantities. sometimes it can't be made at all any more. there is still quite a bit of space ship production going on though. it is a galactic scale empire that has a lot of attrition in space. they would not have lasted 10,000 years without it.

The problem with precious irreplaceable military assets is that you can't risk them in battle, except maybe to protect something even more precious and irreplaceable.

not really though. DoAT era stuff would stomp the GE even harder true. it doesn't change that the IoM is way ahead of SW.

In some respects. Not in others. SW never had the problem of their robots getting corrupted by space magic, so they use droids for all kinds of things where the Imperium dare not. The OP having the Warp get reformatted by act of ROB isn't going to change that whole culture and setup.

 

[Scottty]

Those guys were also Palpatines "Most elite forces"

Which raises some questions about how that was measured.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

wouldn't know offhand. both got entire worlds dedicated for manufacturing and shipyards. pretty sure IoM has more though. 40k tends to go crazy with big numbers. death star while neat isn't that big of a game changer. it taking 4 years to make one and the resources that could have made a thousand or more ISDs? kind of a bad trade.

Its a small moon. I cant think of anything in the IOM to match it. Not even the phalanx. Sure, it would be better to make 1000+ SD, but the sheer industrial might to make something so vast in just 4 years speaks of immense productive power, something im not sure the IOM can match.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

IoM also has a massive industrial capacity. at least as good and arguably better considering how well they can absorb losses.

Do we have any examples like we have of the Empire building deathstars or spamming tens of thousands of ISDs?

Basically every time we hear about a ship's age it's thousands of years old. They even still have ships in service that predate the Imperium. That suggests a fairly weak industry if their attrition is that low and they still can only barely keep pace

 

[Aldarion]

Do they?
From what I've been told, their massive ornate battleships take centuries to build, and run on legacy technology that they no longer properly understand, even if they can still build more it it.

Contrast this with what one SWverse world (Exegol) can churn out in a couple of decades...

Its a small moon. I cant think of anything in the IOM to match it. Not even the phalanx. Sure, it would be better to make 1000+ SD, but the sheer industrial might to make something so vast in just 4 years speaks of immense productive power, something im not sure the IOM can match.

Do we have any examples like we have of the Empire building deathstars or spamming tens of thousands of ISDs?

Basically every time we hear about a ship's age it's thousands of years old. They even still have ships in service that predate the Imperium. That suggests a fairly weak industry if their attrition is that low and they still can only barely keep pace

It is only the highest-end technology that they cannot replicate. Most of the massive ornate battleships are perfectly buildable.

Problem is that we do not have any information on the actual production rate, though I attempted to give the best possible estimate:

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Around 5% of Imperial worlds are run by Mechanicum, but not all of them are forge worlds. If we assume 5% of those are full-on forge worlds, then Mechanicus has 50 000 worlds and 2 500 Forge Worlds. A shipyard may take several years to construct a Cobra class destroyer, a decade for a cruiser or a battlecruiser and a century for a battleship. A single Forge World may produce one or more cruisers per year as there will always be several in various stages of construction. Smaller worlds may take years to produce an escort, decades to produce a single cruiser or centuries for a battleship.

Based on the information above, it seems likely that each forge world is building 1 battleship, 10 cruisers and 50 destroyers concurrently. This means that rate of production will be 1 battleship per 100 years, 1 cruiser per year and 10 destroyers per year. With 2 500 forge worlds, total production will be 25 battleships, 2 500 cruisers and 25 000 destroyers per year. This unfortunately does not really help in establishing actual size of the fleet, as we do not have any other variable: warships can last for thousands of years, and are not really decommissioned, but rate at which ships are lost is not known either. Assuming average lifespan of 100 years would give a total fleet of over half a million ships. A ten thousand year lifespan with 90% loss rate would still result in fleet some 27,5 million strong. Loss rate would have to be above 99% for fleet to be at or below 2 million. However, number of warships cannot be significantly above the 2 million either, as the Imperial Navy is consistently portrayed as overstretched.

You may cut rate of production for escorts, but the above rate of production for battleships and cruisers is pretty much set-in-stone minimum value.

Another reason why IoM must lost - they still built the same stuff they built 10.000 before,or worst.
When GE is inventing new stuff every decade.

Not sure it is "new stuff". Canon does not give us enough information to say anything conclusively, but if we take EU into account, then Star Wars galaxy advances at about the same pace as the Imperium does.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

You may cut rate of production for escorts, but the above rate of production for battleships and cruisers is pretty much set-in-stone minimum value.

I'm not seeing where your getting any production numbers from. Without knowing attrition rate or even when, or if, a ship is decommissioned we can't determine how often a forge world would need to build a battleship

 

[Scottty]

It is only the highest-end technology that they cannot replicate. Most of the massive ornate battleships are perfectly buildable.

Still being able to make it is one thing, understanding why it does what it does is quite another.

Not sure it is "new stuff". Canon does not give us enough information to say anything conclusively, but if we take EU into account, then Star Wars galaxy advances at about the same pace as the Imperium does.

Well no - in the movies they clearly aren't as stagnant as some of the old EU materials implied.

 

[Aldarion]

I'm not seeing where your getting any production numbers from. Without knowing attrition rate or even when, or if, a ship is decommissioned we can't determine how often a forge world would need to build a battleship

Production numbers are estimates from canon information, specifically what I noted here:

A shipyard may take several years to construct a Cobra class destroyer, a decade for a cruiser or a battlecruiser and a century for a battleship. A single Forge World may produce one or more cruisers per year as there will always be several in various stages of construction. Smaller worlds may take years to produce an escort, decades to produce a single cruiser or centuries for a battleship.

Battlefleet Gothic notes that Imperial Heavy Cruiser takes between three and 11 years to produce, so "a decade" I noted above is really the upper end of the estimate. Even if we assume that it is 11 years per cruiser per Forge World, and only 2 500 Forge Worlds (which again is basically minimum estimate) we get a minimum of 230 cruisers per year.

This however completely ignores the fact that a) Forge World will be building multiple cruisers at the same time, b) you don't need a Forge World to build a cruiser or even a battleship, they are just the best at it, but a ship may be built even by a Feral World and c) as I noted, "decade" for a cruiser is a high-end estimate.

As for decommissioning, we know that there are still ships serving in the Imperium from before the Horus Heresy. So it seems likely that they don't decommission ships at all... even though we also know that there are many warships being kept in graveyards, from where they can be quickly recommissioned if needed.

I'm not seeing where your getting any production numbers from. Without knowing attrition rate or even when, or if, a ship is decommissioned we can't determine how often a forge world would need to build a battleship

Production numbers are estimates from canon information, specifically this:

A shipyard may take several years to construct a Cobra class destroyer, a decade for a cruiser or a battlecruiser and a century for a battleship. A single Forge World may produce one or more cruisers per year as there will always be several in various stages of construction. Smaller worlds may take years to produce an escort, decades to produce a single cruiser or centuries for a battleship.

Battlefleet Gothic notes that Imperial Heavy Cruiser takes between three and 11 years to produce, so "a decade" I noted above is really the upper end of the estimate. Even if we assume that it is 11 years per cruiser per Forge World, and only 2 500 Forge Worlds (which again is basically minimum estimate) we get a minimum of 230 cruisers per year.

This however completely ignores the fact that a) Forge World will be building multiple cruisers at the same time, b)

As for decommissioning, we know that there are still ships serving in the Imperium from before the Horus Heresy. So it seems likely that they don't decommission ships at all... even though we also know that there are many warships being kept in graveyards, from where they can be quickly recommissioned if needed.

Still being able to make it is one thing, understanding why it does what it does is quite another.

Specifically for this scenario, why would Imperium need to "understand why it does what it does"? It will not make any difference in any timeline less than "centuries". Can the Empire hold out that long? And with Guilliman back, Mechanicum is again innovating.

Well no - in the movies they clearly aren't as stagnant as some of the old EU materials implied.

Maybe. But even so, any major change will take decades.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Battlefleet Gothic notes that Imperial Heavy Cruiser takes between three and 11 years to produce, so "a decade" I noted above is really the upper end of the estimate

Well there's a difference between being able to build a cruiser between 3-11 years and perpetually doing so .

We don't know the production rate, the division of resources between ships and other equipment or the Imperium needs.

For instance if they only need a new battleship once every thousand years, which consider the age of their ships is possible, they wouldn't need and possibly couldn't support building one continuously.

 

[Carrot of Truth]

Funny and sad thing about the Imperium or at least with the Mechanicus is that they actually do have a large number of fully intact STC's its just that they don't even realize it. The Ark mechanicus ships that they travel around on to search for STC's actually are STC's.

 

[Jormungandr]

Keep in mind that building the First Death Star absolutely took a sledgehammer to the Empire's coffers, and it put a massive strain on the Empire's planets as a whole; the Second Death Star basically took a shotgun to the already smashed knee caps.

Palpatine was so obsessed with "obedience through fear and power" that the fool was uncaring that it was literally ruining his empire by that point.