Sci-Fi Tech Good Times with Future Weapons (the scifi Gun thread)

Francis Urquhart

Well-known member
The man portable gatling guns the clones used were a bit far fetched, but I guess those guys were stronger than normal guys given the huge rifles they packed.
Man-portable Gatling guns have been around for some years; they've even been evaluated for effectiveness but the news wasn't good. It's not the weight so much as the way they burn through ammunition. It's impossible to keep the people carrying them properly supplied and without that the gatling is just a poorly-designed club. The vulnerability of the weapons to jamming with mud was another issue.

Most science-fiction militaries though miss out the deadliest weapon known to man - a radio. Why shoot at an enemy when your artillery observer can do it with much bigger weapons?

FWIW, I was at a symposium a few years back (not classified but non-public) that was about future weapons for the infantry and the general conclusion was that we'd still be using much the same stuff that we have now. Given the development of body armor, the major thrust was likely to be penetration with a return to full-power rifle cartridges and semi-automatic fire.
 

Human Primacy

Well-known member
The whole "energy weapon gatling-gun" always seemed a little weird. Not the weight thing, like with normal guns, since presumably if they've developed effective energy weapons, then they have power sources that eliminate the restriction of needing to carry the equivalent of a car battery and your own weight in ammo. I mean because - would that really be a worthwhile design? Would that really aid in cooling? I suppose it depends on how the weapon works, and what the actual barrel consists of. It just seems like there's no reason that the barrel itself is where the heat would gather.
 

Francis Urquhart

Well-known member
The whole "energy weapon gatling-gun" always seemed a little weird. Not the weight thing, like with normal guns, since presumably if they've developed effective energy weapons, then they have power sources that eliminate the restriction of needing to carry the equivalent of a car battery and your own weight in ammo. I mean because - would that really be a worthwhile design? Would that really aid in cooling? I suppose it depends on how the weapon works, and what the actual barrel consists of. It just seems like there's no reason that the barrel itself is where the heat would gather.
This is a major issue that has come up where energy-based personnel weapons have been considered. What, exactly, do such weapons buy the user? what does an energy weapon bring to the table that is not also demonstrated by a high-velocity lump of spinning lead.? An energy weapon will be a lot more expensive to build and be a greater draw-down on resources than a conventional rifle so it has to offer some fairly substantial advantages. Otherwise, people will stick with rifles.

So, what are the advantages offered by a directed energy infantry weapon?
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
@Francis Urquhart Star Wars really has the best justification for energy weapons. They're the same size as regular firearms, they presumably go through armour extremely well, which would be the main reason for adopting them, and they presumably also handle taking out personal shields extremely well (as another form of armour). And they have essentially unlimited ammunition because of incredibly dense exotic power storage. So the very high ammunition capacity and eliminating the effectiveness of armour were the main motivations for switching to them. It's noteworthy that the next tier down is regular firearms, there were no technology steps between regular firearms and blasters--people kept using regular firearms until blasters were mature enough as a technology to adopt. There's some exotics like flechette guns but they're very rarely used niche products, and I suspect marketed more on gimmick that effectiveness.
 

tirrene

Tooty toot, a corpse is you
I know this isn't a gun per se, but a couple years ago I read an article on super-conductors and it occured to me: if it could be theoretically used for trains and cars, why not for flying power armor? Ever since I've had a character concept of a guy who uses said power armor, combined with a liquid nitrogen sprayer because he's already carrying the stuff, why the hell not.

Now, I realize that the concept is entirely impractical, completely ridiculous, and would likely only ever be built by a cyborg Kardashian in the far-flung cyberpunk future, used once, then promptly thrown away. But I can dream. And I choose to dream about a future where some cold suit boy will yell out ice puns like a nerd who just watched the Batman and Robin movie.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
@tirrene the real problem would just be what you were superconducting against in that case. You might be very limited in where you could operate.
 

Human Primacy

Well-known member
As of right now, no, there is no reason to develop personal energy weapons. The amount of effort you'd have to put into having them simply on par with rifles would require some very advanced energy sources that we don't have access to yet. And as stated, having them on par with lethality, but massively more expensive, makes them inferior. It could come to a point that the kind of portable power source to produce something equivalent to a rifle, but can fire all day without reloading, becomes inexpensive and easy to produce, and that might make a positive trade off, but that'd be a long way off.

It would have to be easy to maintain, too, which has already been a problem with conventional firearms in the past, and only becomes more of an issue as weapons get more complex. AKs aren't ubiquitous because they're great rifles. They're good, but they're popular because they're easy to use for untrained personnel. Also, because the Soviets sneezed them en masse to anyone that looked at the west funny, but that's another issue. There's a lot of other assault rifles that are far superior in the hands of a trained soldier, but the training is the caveat. I can only imagine the issues with keeping an energy rifle in working order.

There's also other issues that may come up with a directed energy weapon that are unique to their specific function. Unfortunately, we're probably never going to get proper laser guns as personal weapons, because they will fucking blind everyone. Even laser lights that you use to play with your cat can cause eye damage if you look right into them for too long, and far before you get to the sort of power output in a laser that will make in comparable or superior to a convention rifle, just seeing the light reflected where the beam hits a surface will be enough blind you faster than your blink reflex can react. And using UV or IR is not a solution, unfortunately, because the light is still there, regardless of whether you can see it; if anything that's more dangerous because of it. You can equip soldiers with eye protection, but it's still an extra risk that you're presenting, on top of which that will severely limit your areas of operation. You can't use them where there could be any non-hostiles, since you're going to fry out their eyes, and even blinding the enemy en masse might be considered a war crime, and you likely can't use them in low light conditions, since the eye protection itself will handicap your soldiers.

There is the issue of stopping power, too, which could vary based on weapon type. If there's no projectile or kinetic force, then it could have issues with bringing down an attacker in a timely fashion, even if it proves to be lethal, the same way that militaries have had issue with low caliber weapons before. This might make projectile weapons that use other means of accelerating the projectile, instead of gunpowder, like a railgun, more likely, but they would still have the immense energy needs, so we're not seeing that anytime soon, either.

There is some potential for non-lethal weapons, but so far as I know, most of those have been relegated to mounted weapons, too, like sound guns. There's been attempts at hand held designs, like the PHASR, but so far as I know, there's not really any personal, non lethal directed energy weapons that have really gotten through testing and gotten any broad use. And again, existing technology, like tasers and bean bag rounds, work rather well.
 

tirrene

Tooty toot, a corpse is you
This is all true, and honestly I'm impressed at the depth of analysis of your argument, but I think you forget one simple fact: Energy weapons are awesome.

Now, I know that sounds like just a meme for the sake of a meme, but if you think about it, the logic for why you would own a laser pistol is essentially the same as that of owning a machinegun. Let's be clear for a second here, most people who own guns don't do it entirely for self protection; they do it because guns are "cool". And, as it turns out, lasers are much cooler than bullets, so the moment that technology becomes publicly available, a lot of people (mostly from the United States, because it's a first-world country with third-world gun control laws) will buy them simply for the sake of owning them.

I don't want to get into a whole Second Amendment argument; I'm just stating that way more shots are fired in the United States for personal entertainment than for self-defense.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
@Human Primacy , I think that's precisely why blasters are so predominant in Star Wars. They are clearly shown to be exceptionally rugged and durable and easy to maintain as well. In short, they displaced firearms because they legitimately could meet or exceed firearms in all categories, not just a couple of select ones, while conferring very major advantages in a couple of key ones. If they weren't so simple and rugged, they would have never been widely adopted.
 

Vargas Fan

Head over heels in love :)
I always liked the idea of the Lawgiver in Judge Dredd. This is the Mk 1, which lasted the longest. There has been a Mk 2 and now a 3.

latest


The thing that makes it most durable is the variety of ammunition types that it can fire, and that it also is palm coded to an individual Judge.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Obozny
I've always liked the Fallout 3 varient of the laser rifle, both in that game as as a weapon in general. Laser weapons are probably some of my favorite sci-fi weapons, just because they're so uncommon compared to particle beams or some made-up energy weapon, so lasers actually feel fairly unique. The AER9 looks unique too, without the glowing bits and tactical gadgets that tend to clutter up such weapons, but not going to the extreme of "a box with a barrel poking out one end and a trigger on the other"....or in the case of the other well known sci-fi laser weapon, a box with a barrel poking out one end and a trigger on the other and also a skull.





As for weapons I "own", I actually do have a repainted dart firing MA5C from Halo. Don't have a picture handy, but it looks more or less like this one:



As far as the trend of sci-fi guns that still shoot bullets because realism or whatever goes, I think the MA5 stands out for kinda the same reason as the laser rifle, it's obviously recognizable as being a particular type of weapon, looks more or less practical, but also isn't cluttered up with a bunch of extraneous junk. It actually looks unique and disctinstice, as opposed to the common issue of "this is my giant pile of scopes, grips, pictiny rails, flashlights, and grenade launchers. There are many like it, but this one is mine. And also there's a gun mixed into that pile somewhere".
 
Last edited:

Human Primacy

Well-known member
This is all true, and honestly I'm impressed at the depth of analysis of your argument, but I think you forget one simple fact: Energy weapons are awesome.

Now, I know that sounds like just a meme for the sake of a meme, but if you think about it, the logic for why you would own a laser pistol is essentially the same as that of owning a machinegun. Let's be clear for a second here, most people who own guns don't do it entirely for self protection; they do it because guns are "cool". And, as it turns out, lasers are much cooler than bullets, so the moment that technology becomes publicly available, a lot of people (mostly from the United States, because it's a first-world country with third-world gun control laws) will buy them simply for the sake of owning them.

I don't want to get into a whole Second Amendment argument; I'm just stating that way more shots are fired in the United States for personal entertainment than for self-defense.

I think the bottleneck is getting them developed in the first place. Unsurprisingly most new advancements in weaponry come from development for military use. That actually applies to a lot of technology. You could argue that there'd be a 'shock and awe' factor to using space guns on the battlefield, but that's entirely moot if they're functionally inferior to conventional rifles. And there's better ways to make the enemy pucker their anus that are way more cost effective. It'd still be trying to fix something that isn't broke, and it can't make the leap to civilian product if it doesn't exist in the first place.

Civilians could create fancy weapons just for giggles, and indeed, some people do, even today:

Necessity is the mother of invention. Money is the father. I don't see most projects like this getting anywhere past 'curiosity', since no one's going to be bankrolling someone's scifi guns. There's not really a need or market that would motivate one to do so.
 

Trace Coburn

BattleTech Starfighter Analyst
The whole "energy weapon gatling-gun" always seemed a little weird. Not the weight thing, like with normal guns, since presumably if they've developed effective energy weapons, then they have power sources that eliminate the restriction of needing to carry the equivalent of a car battery and your own weight in ammo. I mean because - would that really be a worthwhile design? Would that really aid in cooling? I suppose it depends on how the weapon works, and what the actual barrel consists of. It just seems like there's no reason that the barrel itself is where the heat would gather.
I forget if it was /tg/ or a Pinterest post, but I saw someone make a similar argument about a laser-pistol built in revolver fashion. Another poster quickly proposed a counter-argument. If an energy-weapon’s barrel/firing-cylinder is governed by a capacitor or other technobabble device, and you want a rapid-fire weapon but the cycle-time of each device is of a given duration that cannot be shortened for technical/engineering reasons, then the solution is to mount multiple barrels/cylinders in a rotating arrangement so that you can put a fresh chamber into-barrage and continue firing while the others are charging/cooling/whatever.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
I think the bottleneck is getting them developed in the first place. Unsurprisingly most new advancements in weaponry come from development for military use. That actually applies to a lot of technology. You could argue that there'd be a 'shock and awe' factor to using space guns on the battlefield, but that's entirely moot if they're functionally inferior to conventional rifles. And there's better ways to make the enemy pucker their anus that are way more cost effective. It'd still be trying to fix something that isn't broke, and it can't make the leap to civilian product if it doesn't exist in the first place.

Civilians could create fancy weapons just for giggles, and indeed, some people do, even today:

Necessity is the mother of invention. Money is the father. I don't see most projects like this getting anywhere past 'curiosity', since no one's going to be bankrolling someone's scifi guns. There's not really a need or market that would motivate one to do so.


There's definitely a "local optima" problem with laser weapons: there's space where they're theoretically better, but that's after a bunch of space where their objectively worse. And they don't perform exactly the same, so require different tactics as well. For the historical example, while we often talk about guns replacing bows, the two actually perform very differently despite nominally filling the same nitch, and thus required radically different tactics to take advantage/negate strengths and weaknesses.

The two advantages I could see with laser weapons is

1) less ammo needs: electricity is cheaper than steel and powder. I've seen about 10 KJ as the energy needs of a blast at the high end. This is about 0.005 cents worth of electricity.

2) Possibly more durable equipment: if you can make a basic laser rifle with no moving parts, you could have something that doesn't require that much maintenance.

3) Easier training: because of instantaneous (effectively) shooting, training a higher degree of markmenship may be easier (assuming the thing has a long enough effective range to make use of it). The very low cost to shoot (between the low cost of electricerty and durable parts who don't suffer a lot of wear and tear from firing).

Though, this means you have something that seems best suited as a militia or mass army weapon, but with a assumedly higher up front cost. Which is not really something useful for the existing militaries.
 

tirrene

Tooty toot, a corpse is you
The two advantages I could see with laser weapons is

3) Easier training: because of instantaneous (effectively) shooting, training a higher degree of markmenship may be easier (assuming the thing has a long enough effective range to make use of it). The very low cost to shoot (between the low cost of electricerty and durable parts who don't suffer a lot of wear and tear from firing).
boi

Jokes aside, I agree that the biggest problem here is that people will simply refuse to acknowledge energy weapons as being "real" even as they begin to become widespread. I know of a handful of technologies that already exist but get shunned and ignored because they "sound too futuristic"; that's one of the main hurdles we will have to get over if we ever watn to get sweet lasguns.

The other hurdle is, of course, that the big boi weapon country is the US, and you already know the current mainline gun manufacturers and the NRA will lobby the hell out of plasma prohibitions just in case they could destabilize the market.
 

Human Primacy

Well-known member
Lasers likely work better on a larger scale than as individual weapons. That's how they use them now, on navy ships as multipurpose weapons, or for missile defenses. This negates the power supply problem for personal weapons, but also the eye risks, because you're engaging at greater range, and usually targeting specific equipment, rather than blinking it all over the place.

A minor advantagr that may be a bigger deal later is recoil, or the lack there of. We don't worry so much about it today, because we design weapons to counteract it easily enough, but that might be an issue in space. Conventional ballistic weapons have the potential to act as a propellant in zero g, depending on the mass and force involved. Though there may be limited usefulness to them in space combat, anyways.

There are alternatives that get around the blinding problem, but most have their own issues. An electro laser might not require a high powered laser, since you're only using it as a delivery system. However, the dropoff in power happens pretty quick for the electric charge. There's also masers, which use microwaves instead of light, but there's problems with getting those to work at all at room temperature. That's also another one that falls under "portable war crime" since cooking someone with microwaves is kind of frowned upon. Of course that all becomes irrelevant if your enemies are aliens. Geneva convention doesn't apply to star slime.
 

JagerIV

Well-known member
I think laser weapons will replace guns, if they ever do so, through a similar process to guns replacing bows (which itself was a couple hundred year process in Europe, and an 800 year process in Asia). You will have steady, incremental improvements that steadily increase the number of roles you can use lasers in, as the ability to do things increases:

Battery tech will steadily get better, probably mostly driven at this point by phones/laptops and electric cars. As powerful batteries become cheaper through mass production and civilian options become more ubiquitous, it will become less strange to use such tech for something like a common weapon: it will be easier for tinkerers in their garages or university labs to slap together increasingly powerful mobile power systems with cheap, off the shelf parts: were already seeing some pretty nifty armature enthusiast work being done and shown off on Youtube.

Laser guns I think will strongly benefit from the raw cool factor which means you will have a lot of enthusasts who will be trying to build one. This makes me confident that once the commercially available batterys, converters, and other materials are advanced enough to build an effective laser weapon, it will be built. Its greatly aided by the fact that a laser rifle isn't really that complicated of a system: Lasers are common tech at this point, and no single part is all that complicated. It very much seems like the kind of thing that is perfectly capable of being built in someone's garage, once the correct layout is figured out, which is mostly trial and error.

There may not be a huge need for it, but it seems simple enough that you don't actually need all that much resources to make progress on designs.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top