Fallout Fallout General Thread - War, War Never Changes. Nor do game engines.

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
They're referred to as 'generations' ingame however?
No. Phase is diffrent from generations. Generation is about the synths..
Of course, but that doesn't exactly mean killing every synth, good or not, is a good idea. They're not inherently evil, they're just people.
They can be and have been controlled as slaves by the institute
The issue of synth reproduction is never raised, but seeing as they're identical to people they should be capable of it. 'Why' can be answered with 'The institute are retarded'.
If their uhhh...Baby batter was abnormal in any way, you could detect a synth via it.
Decon mentions they were trying for a child and then they found out his love was a synth and boom, no more baby.
And how would they be able.to detect?
Then can literally just make them infertile....
 

Lord Sovereign

The resident Britbong
As the biggest Emperor bothered this side of the ruin storm, the less said about my opinions on synths and their maximum-over-heresy, the better.
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Comrade
They can be and have been controlled as slaves by the institute
Sure, but it's spotty at best, Railroad have loads of Synths and they don't go apeshit. Genociding a race because of a few bad apples sound awfully like something we've all heard a million times in our lives...

Decon mentions they were trying for a child and then they found out his love was a synth and boom, no more baby.
And how would they be able.to detect?
Then can literally just make them infertile....
That just makes them easier to spot and would make hunting down sterile people a simple logical choice if you want to be synth free. And you could detect them by simply taking 'samples' and looking at them under a microscope, their DNA is all fine and dandy so the obvious issue is the delivery method or receptor.
I just chalk it up to Fallout 4 being inconsistent as always.

The same game doesn't understand ghouls require water and food (or at least AIR), and that they age.
 

Husky_Khan

The Dog Whistler... I mean Whisperer.
Founder
FO3, 4, NV and 76 all add respective elements.
For instance you can ask @Battlegrinder his favorite FO, and it may differ from others.
I like 4 because of the settlement building aspect and the way power armor is done.
The older ones I do like ideas of it, and the more Turn based stuff is nice, but the FPS aspect makes up for it.
Add in the fact you have a massive modding community that can make the old games into FPS.
We have decent mod such as The Frontier for NV, you have New California for NV.
4 has America Rising 2, Sim Settlements 2, FO4 NV, FO4 CW, hell, there is even talk if making 1 and 2 into 4 or NV.

Yeah the stance presented here of the NMA style is so myopic to the point it feels self-aggrandizing. I'm just thinking of all of the Fallout content that would never exist if we followed the idea of gatekeeping as presented here so that there would be no modern Fallout games. Fallout 3 was a good RPG game and when it came out it rightfully got lots of awards, praise and sales and brought Fallout to a whole new form of a gameplay and helped make Fallout New Vegas which is IMHO every bit as good as the first two Fallout games and introduced a generation of gamers to a level of RPG detail that you didn't really get with other games (Fallout 3 included) but kind of did with old school RPG's including the first two Fallouts as well as things like Neverwinter Nights and Planescape Torment and Arcanum etc.

Fallout 4 was fine. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't great. But it was a good enough game IMHO. But again, the thing is, along with the mods you mentioned... there is so much more. Thousands of people have played the classic Fallout games because of modern Fallout releases. Plus in addition to the mods, there's the fanfics, the lore videos, the several hundred page long forum discussions of people discussing Fallout lore and world building and versus matches, the fanart, the memes, the inspiration Fallout has brought to people regarding their own writing or role playing or designs, the injection of proper philosophy, morality and religion and politics into game settings thanks to FNV largely. The impact is huge and almost none of it would exist due to gatekeeping back in the early 2000's.

There's no purity or benefit in self aggrandized elitism. Deus Ex: Human Revolution was inferior to Deus Ex to many people, but if it wasn't for the former my partner never would've played Deus Ex and we wouldn't of seen one of the greatest game stories of all time. We might be seeing something similar with System Shock and Baldurs Gate thanks to remakes/reboots or sequels. I wish we'd see Wing Commander or Total Annihilation or Crusader No Remorse get a Fallout or Doom Eternal style revival. It'll bring more attention back onto the classic games, which still exist and it'd make the fandom create more content, all of which you can elect to or not to watch, play or buy. If it's shit, then it can go the way of Volition and the Saints Row reboot into rightful miserable mockery.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Yeah the stance presented here of the NMA style is so myopic to the point it feels self-aggrandizing. I'm just thinking of all of the Fallout content that would never exist if we followed the idea of gatekeeping as presented here so that there would be no modern Fallout games. Fallout 3 was a good RPG game and when it came out it rightfully got lots of awards, praise and sales and brought Fallout to a whole new form of a gameplay and helped make Fallout New Vegas which is IMHO every bit as good as the first two Fallout games and introduced a generation of gamers to a level of RPG detail that you didn't really get with other games (Fallout 3 included) but kind of did with old school RPG's including the first two Fallouts as well as things like Neverwinter Nights and Planescape Torment and Arcanum etc.

Fallout 4 was fine. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't great. But it was a good enough game IMHO. But again, the thing is, along with the mods you mentioned... there is so much more. Thousands of people have played the classic Fallout games because of modern Fallout releases. Plus in addition to the mods, there's the fanfics, the lore videos, the several hundred page long forum discussions of people discussing Fallout lore and world building and versus matches, the fanart, the memes, the inspiration Fallout has brought to people regarding their own writing or role playing or designs, the injection of proper philosophy, morality and religion and politics into game settings thanks to FNV largely. The impact is huge and almost none of it would exist due to gatekeeping back in the early 2000's.

There's no purity or benefit in self aggrandized elitism. Deus Ex: Human Revolution was inferior to Deus Ex to many people, but if it wasn't for the former my partner never would've played Deus Ex and we wouldn't of seen one of the greatest game stories of all time. We might be seeing something similar with System Shock and Baldurs Gate thanks to remakes/reboots or sequels. I wish we'd see Wing Commander or Total Annihilation or Crusader No Remorse get a Fallout or Doom Eternal style revival. It'll bring more attention back onto the classic games, which still exist and it'd make the fandom create more content, all of which you can elect to or not to watch, play or buy. If it's shit, then it can go the way of Volition and the Saints Row reboot into rightful miserable mockery.
Hell, Wolfenstien, besides Young Blood, got the revamp as well.
Yes you had Castle Wolfenstien, but the newer series skyrocketed its popularity.
Like Doom
If remakes are good and bring more people into the the world if those games, then that is what we need.

An Examplw, 40k Space Marine. Before that you had the Dawn Of War games, but it Space Marine set it to a whole new level if audience
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
What do you actually think that game excelled beyond mediocre as a shooter? Because it certainly didn't as an RPG.
As an RPG I actually felt like I was growing myself as a character.
Has good settlement mechanic.
FPS is honestly not that bad..better controls then prior FOs in my book
 

Carrot of Truth

War is Peace
As an RPG I actually felt like I was growing myself as a character.
Has good settlement mechanic.
FPS is honestly not that bad..better controls then prior FOs in my book

Have you ever even played an RPG? As for the settlement mechanics, That was also a shit tier system that requires mods to make into something halfway decent. My theory on that system is it was put in so players wouldn't notice how barren the map was.
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Comrade
As an RPG I actually felt like I was growing myself as a character.
See this is the issue, objectively you cannot call Fallout 4 a decent RPG. It might be decent in some areas but 100% not an RPG.
Which RPG games have you played in the past, by any chance? Because I can actually list a couple of Bethesda games which are far better at it, Morrowind and Oblivion.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
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Obozny
Fallout 4 was a modern fallout game, meaning it had core of decent ideas, and then required modders to go in and actually make all those ideas work correctly.

The shooting was decent. It did need mods to rebalance the system and prevent enemies from becoming bullet sponges. But once you fix that, it works great and is really fun. It didn't bring anything new to the game, but it doesn't need to, it just needs to be competent, and it is. The weapon crafting system is solid, it's nice being able to customize and tinker with your weapons to suit your exact playstyle, and it's kinda neat how sometimes a basic gun can be modded into several different version that fill different niches (unless you're a collector like me, then it becomes a problem).

Legendary weapons were a bad idea though. I ain't defending that.


The settlement stuff was half baked, it would be fun to have a role in rebuilding the wasteland, but they went way overboard with it, I don't want to have to personally build every single town myself, and it also didn't align at all with the main plot. I think they should have gone with a more abstract, city builder type system, and left the super detailed stuff be for player housing (But that's why Sim Settlements was made). That said, being able to actually build your own house and adjust it to what you need and want was a really good feature, and I hope a version of it is retained in 5.




As for the "not an RPG", I'd like to hear more details on what the perceived issue is first.
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Comrade
As for the "not an RPG", I'd like to hear more details on what the perceived issue is first.
You can't really 'build' a character which excels at any one thing, every character ends up a master of all unless you 'really' go out of your way to stop it.

Happens due to a couple of reasons.

1: You have unlimited levels, inevitably you become good at everything, Fallout 2 had this issue to some degree but you couldn't endlessly increase SPECIAL in FO2.
2: Perks are a replacement for skills, except you cannot rush perks, they are level-gated. Want to be a master lockpick at level 10 like you could in FO3/NV? Nope! Not happening here!
3: Because there's no skill checks for 99.99% of the game, every single little aspect of the game comes down to 'shoot things, sneaking or not'. This means there's really only two viable builds, shooty man and sneaky shooty man. But because the DPS boosting perks are level gated, you will always have spare perk points to become a master at every other element that happens on occasion.

A game where you can get 10+ in every SPECIAL AND every perk, can hardly be called an RPG. You could get 100 skill in FO NV but you had to try for it with the right build and foreknowledge.

Also, ya know, character backstory, we KNOW who the player character is, we cannot choose his role in the world, you can't even be the leader of a faction without feeling like a subordinate.

A good RPG goes "Name your character, think on what he's supposed to be, and fill in the rest with imagination!", FO4 goes "You are a soldier of a lawyer based on your sex, you even have a canonical name which you can ignore, oh and you're ALWAYS a good shot". NV had weapon sway if you lacked strength checks with weapons or lacked skill to use them, a 1 strength pansy (Described as "Wet Noodle in NV) can pick up a minigun and fire with flawless accuracy in FO4.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
You can't really 'build' a character which excels at any one thing, every character ends up a master of all unless you 'really' go out of your way to stop it.

Happens due to a couple of reasons.

1: You have unlimited levels, inevitably you become good at everything, Fallout 2 had this issue to some degree but you couldn't endlessly increase SPECIAL in FO2.
2: Perks are a replacement for skills, except you cannot rush perks, they are level-gated. Want to be a master lockpick at level 10 like you could in FO3/NV? Nope! Not happening here!
3: Because there's no skill checks for 99.99% of the game, every single little aspect of the game comes down to 'shoot things, sneaking or not'. This means there's really only two viable builds, shooty man and sneaky shooty man. But because the DPS boosting perks are level gated, you will always have spare perk points to become a master at every other element that happens on occasion.

A game where you can get 10+ in every SPECIAL AND every perk, can hardly be called an RPG. You could get 100 skill in FO NV but you had to try for it with the right build and foreknowledge.

Also, ya know, character backstory, we KNOW who the player character is, we cannot choose his role in the world, you can't even be the leader of a faction without feeling like a subordinate.

A good RPG goes "Name your character, think on what he's supposed to be, and fill in the rest with imagination!", FO4 goes "You are a soldier of a lawyer based on your sex, you even have a canonical name which you can ignore, oh and you're ALWAYS a good shot". NV had weapon sway if you lacked strength checks with weapons or lacked skill to use them, a 1 strength pansy (Described as "Wet Noodle in NV) can pick up a minigun and fire with flawless accuracy in FO4.
Flawless accuracy? With a mini gun? Fuck that in 4.
And let's see, in 3, NV and 4 all have a set background on the characters with 3 having minor variations based on that one test
2 I think you could claim the most TRUE rpg of them, as in 1 you still have a set backstory.

It is hard for games to have such open ended backstories when they have stories like FO.
Because canon gets fuzzy.
Look at the KOTOR series and what the protags look like and did a cording to legends canon.
He'll, a good example of a RPG is the Mount and Blade series.
But your choices will actively effect your start there
 

ThatZenoGuy

Zealous Evolutionary Nano Organism
Comrade
Flawless accuracy? With a mini gun? Fuck that in 4.
And let's see, in 3, NV and 4 all have a set background on the characters with 3 having minor variations based on that one test
2 I think you could claim the most TRUE rpg of them, as in 1 you still have a set backstory.
Fallout 1 has the only rule that you are a vault dweller. Your purpose in the vault, your training, your age, appearance, all of it is completely up to you. FO4 has canonical protagonists. Nate and Nora.

NV does not have a set background aside from that you were a courier for some undisclosed period of time. You could have any name, natural skillset, etc. Also factor in the two bullets to the brain could do any number on your personality or behaviors.

Nate/Nora becoming a psychopath makes very little sense, it makes a lot more sense in FO1-2-NV where we have absolutely no idea what they were doing before we took control of them.
 

Carrot of Truth

War is Peace
Fallout 1 has the only rule that you are a vault dweller. Your purpose in the vault, your training, your age, appearance, all of it is completely up to you. FO4 has canonical protagonists. Nate and Nora.

NV does not have a set background aside from that you were a courier for some undisclosed period of time. You could have any name, natural skillset, etc. Also factor in the two bullets to the brain could do any number on your personality or behaviors.

Nate/Nora becoming a psychopath makes very little sense, it makes a lot more sense in FO1-2-NV where we have absolutely no idea what they were doing before we took control of them.

Fallout 4 basically forces you to play either a good guy or a sarcastic jerk who still does everything anyways.
 

Battlegrinder

Someday we will win, no matter what it takes.
Moderator
Staff Member
Founder
Obozny
You can't really 'build' a character which excels at any one thing, every character ends up a master of all unless you 'really' go out of your way to stop it.

Happens due to a couple of reasons.

1: You have unlimited levels, inevitably you become good at everything, Fallout 2 had this issue to some degree but you couldn't endlessly increase SPECIAL in FO2.
2: Perks are a replacement for skills, except you cannot rush perks, they are level-gated. Want to be a master lockpick at level 10 like you could in FO3/NV? Nope! Not happening here!
3: Because there's no skill checks for 99.99% of the game, every single little aspect of the game comes down to 'shoot things, sneaking or not'. This means there's really only two viable builds, shooty man and sneaky shooty man. But because the DPS boosting perks are level gated, you will always have spare perk points to become a master at every other element that happens on occasion.

I think your definition of RPG is a bit straightjacketed. Compare Fallout 4 to, say, Mass Effect (and a few other games, but I'll pick ME as the core example).

1. In Mass effect, the only things you're locked out of are combat powers, and while you have to level those powers to make them stronger and acquire new bonuses, starting out you're already highly combat effect....and that's how your combat skills work in 4 as well. On the non-combat side, Shepard can always hack through anything, pick any lock, talk down any person, right from the start. Shepard is good at everything as well. Furthermore, this isn't some new change, 3 and NV both let you build a character with maxed out skills and all the must have perks with trivial ease.

2. Level gating abilities is the norm for RPGs, fallout was unusual in that it did otherwise. And frankly, dumping skill points was the right call. Boosting combat skills gave next to no discernable bonus as you leveled (oh, sure, over time it would help, but each individual level up was near meaningless), and boosting science, lockpick, etc was even worse, as you got no real bonus until you hit a certain threshold, outside of a tiny handful of skill checks. And the functional difference between "has 45 points in science" and "has rank 3 science perk" is nonexistent.

3. It's an RPG where guns are the primary combat system, of course the main gameplay system is guns (or melee, if you want). In contrast ME also has only two character builds, cover shooting guy and vanguard. I admit the DPS perks and overall bullet spongeness was a bad design, but an RPG with a bad combat system cough KOTOR cough is still an RPG. And it's not like 3 or NV where packed full of skill checks either, the main form of gameplay there was also just shooting people.


A game where you can get 10+ in every SPECIAL AND every perk, can hardly be called an RPG. You could get 100 skill in FO NV but you had to try for it with the right build and foreknowledge.

Maxing out a character in NV and 3 was trivial, the only way it could possibly be tricky is if you wanted 100 in every single skill and weren't will to have a combat skill or two you never used left low. Yeah, maybe you had to do some basic math to figure out how many skill points you'd need per level or what perks to take, but planning a character build is a basic part of playing an RPG.


Also, ya know, character backstory, we KNOW who the player character is, we cannot choose his role in the world, you can't even be the leader of a faction without feeling like a subordinate.

A good RPG goes "Name your character, think on what he's supposed to be, and fill in the rest with imagination!", FO4 goes "You are a soldier of a lawyer based on your sex, you even have a canonical name which you can ignore, oh and you're ALWAYS a good shot".

Ok, and in Mass effect you have a choice of 3 backstories that have next to no impact, you are a colonist/spacer/earthborn and oh and you're always a good shot". In KOTOR you have no choice about your backstory, in Elex you have no choice about your backstory, in dragon age your race picks what your backstories can be. And frankly, Fallout 4 does way less than any of those (and those aspects of your character's past come up only marginally more often then they do in ME). It's also a little funny to complain that the male PC is established to be good shot and was a soldier, because usually that would be a good example of a game justifying a character's baseline skillset.

This is how many CRPGs have done things for decades, include some of the most celebrated examples of the genre, saying any game that doesn't let you start as a total blank slate is "not an RPG" is just absurd. Tabletop RPGs can afford that, expensive CRPGs where every option you add means more coding time, more lines of dialogue to record, less connection to the ongoing story, etc....no, that's just not going to be possible all the time.

NV had weapon sway if you lacked strength checks with weapons or lacked skill to use them, a 1 strength pansy (Described as "Wet Noodle in NV) can pick up a minigun and fire with flawless accuracy in FO4.

Yes, and when NV did that it was bad, it's not fun to start out with your basic ability to shoot straight crippled because some random numbers are too low, not to mention being totally nonsensical. What, did the Courtier just not learn anything about firearms handling for decades and then over the course of a few weeks become the greatest gunslinger in the country (and don't say "bullet to the head", nothing in the game suggests that your abilities are impaired by getting shot)? And also they can be a crack shot with a rifle, but trying to shoulder and aim a laser rifle, well that's a totally different skillset there, you have to put points somewhere else if you want to be able to hold one of those things steady as you shoot, because reasons.

What 4 does it leaves your basic aim unaffected, and then gates more advanced and capable weapons (or rather the mods to craft them), behind levels. What is the functional distance between needing a lot of points in the Gun skill to be able to accurately fire a sniper rifle, and needing a high level Guns perk to be able to build a sniper rifle with the proper barrel, caliber, scope, etc?

Fallout 1 has the only rule that you are a vault dweller. Your purpose in the vault, your training, your age, appearance, all of it is completely up to you. FO4 has canonical protagonists. Nate and Nora.

Fallout 4 does not have canon protagonists, it has default names and appearances which you are free to change as much as you like.

NV does not have a set background aside from that you were a courier for some undisclosed period of time. You could have any name, natural skillset, etc. Also factor in the two bullets to the brain could do any number on your personality or behaviors.

There's absolutely no canon evidence whatsoever that getting shot changed your personality in NV. Your character remembers their past, remembers their history, they would 100% notice if they had changed after getting shot.

I'm also uncertain why "you were a courier for some undisclosed portion of time" is acceptable material to establish for a PC, but "you were a soldier for some undisclosed portion of time" is not. Given how much you complain about 4 giving you good aim from the start, I would think them establishing that male PC was a soldier would be a good thing, it justifies that existing skillset.


Additionally, NV is actually the worst of the modern fallout games when it comes to railroading your character into following the story. "Find your dad, the only family you have left after he left and the vault fell apart", fairly compelling, makes sense that your PC would do that. "Find your abducted son", that's even stronger.

NV, on the other hand? "Find the guy that shot you, because...uh, you just really want to, I guess. And also follow this exact trail to find him or the wildlife will murder you, because we said so." What if I decide that hey, getting robbed is part of the risk, better count my blessings and move on? What if I decide to just go back to work and get the next package? Oh, sorry, I don't get to do that, I must get my revenge, because Obsidian decided that for me.

Nate/Nora becoming a psychopath makes very little sense, it makes a lot more sense in FO1-2-NV where we have absolutely no idea what they were doing before we took control of them.

It makes no sense in any fallout game to play as a psychopath, but it makes substantially less sense in 1 and 2. We don't know what the Vault Dweller and Chosen One's lives were like before the game, but we know where they lived, and we know that small, tightly knit societies, like those of vaults and tribes, are generally not cool with wildly anti-social behavior.

Fallout 4 basically forces you to play either a good guy or a sarcastic jerk who still does everything anyways.

And Mass Effect forces you to be either a goodie two shoes paragon or a hardass renegade who still does everything anyways. It's still an RPG.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Isn't the point of RPGs for the ending to be based upon your choices?
3, 4 amd NV has that...1 and 2 both end the same way
 

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