Not a bad idea at all.
Election 2020 Election 2020: It's (almost) over! (maybe...possibly...ahh who are we kidding, it's 2020!)
- Thread starter Emperor Tippy
- Start date
Duke Nukem
Hail to the king baby
f1onagher
Well-known member
1) When the electors vote on it.
2) Go back in time and alter the rather suspicious series of events that led us here. The only non-felonious possibility that would get us here is if a truly unprecedented number of people voted either split ticket or just for Joe. This is certainly within the realm of possibility but surrounded by the ballot dumps, observation interference, and blatant last minute rule changes it provides a thick fog of uncertainty that turns to suspicion once one finds out that most if not all voter irregularities year have favored Biden.
So realistically from this point not much.
3) Nothing, we know that there has always been limited amounts of fraud, but the belief was that it was never enough to alter a major election. This year has proven that it can happen on a large scale and that even limited low level fraud can cause build up damage to the electoral system.
And you've already received and answered all that.
You've done more work with the response than I'm willing to do, so instead, I'm going to debate your preempt of source suspicion. The 4th estate has proven itself capable of long term lies. The media helped cover up both FDR and Wilson's health problems, for years in FDRs case. They spun the reality on the ground of Vietnam, particularly the Tet Offensive, to pressure the US into leaving. Walter Duranty managed to deceive the entire US media establishment about the Holodomor for years and still has the Pulitzer he won for it. There are simply too many perverse incentives and institutional inertia in the 4th estate to make it in any format trustworthy.
The bias against Donald Trump is obvious. Covering and mocking his myriad foibles honestly would only warrant the tenor of late term Bush coverage. Trump has said a lot of shit, as you've mentioned, but he's done relatively little and what he has done is not what anyone would have called controversial in 2015. So is it really that big of a conspiracy if the incredibly incestuous media industry is going out of its way to run top cover for Democrats in an effort to oust 'literally' Orange Hitler? Do you really look at the headlines of especially the last few months and think that any of these outlets are in any way objective on this issue?
The bulk of the mainstream press has always been incredibly biased, but there are now fewer owners and fewer pretensions at objectivity, so you'll forgive me if I consider trawling through alternate news sources to give a more accurate picture of what's going on.
TL DR: Don't piss down my leg and tell me it's raining. I remember how these same media outlets treated Obama and the Democrats compared to how they treat Trump and the Republicans. They have an agenda and they have it in chorus.
That's not entirely true, I won't get into the rest of this stuff but the "large conspiracies are impossible" argument isn't as air tight as people would like to think. While large organizations have more opportunities for holes you'd be surprised the sort of things you can get done without major notice.
To give you an example, look at the case of the Citigroup Centre in New York. When the skyscraper was being made the architect had decided that instead of the usual design of putting the support pillars at the corners of the building he would put them in the middle of the walls instead. However when checking to see if his design would be able to take the high winds that New York faces without the dampener being on he only checked to see if winds coming perpendicularly would knock the tower over and didn't check for winds coming at the corners. This coupled with a change in the type of joints used meant that it was entirely possible for the tower to collapse if faced with the sort of winds New York experienced roughly every 16 years while not having any power for said damper.
The architect found out about this after the tower had been constructed and it was almost hurricane season but was unwilling to just evacuate the tower because it would cause panic and ruin his reputation. So instead he, his firm and Citycorp simply chose to repair the building without telling the general public or even the people working inside it anything other then that routine maintenance was being done. They hired construction crews and these worked nightly to shore up the tower so that it would survive these winds. Thanks to the media being otherwise distracted they didn't really bother to check up on the statement from the company. However 6 weeks in there was a complication. A hurricane was nearby and looked like it was going to hit New York without the needed work being finished. So Citigroup contacted the NYPD and the office of Emergency Management and these made plans to evacuate the area should the hurricane hit. Some 2500 Red Cross volunteers were also on standby just in case. Thankfully the hurricane veered away and work was completed ensuring the structure would now be able to resist any and all winds it would encounter.
It took nearly 20 years for the details about this situation to come out to the general public in spite of the large quantities of people involved in the affair and the risk to the general public during the time.
citicorp center: a close call
the engineering disaster that (almost) happened
robbievanleeuwen.github.io
New York skyscraper 'saved' from collapsing on New York by a student
Nearly 40 years ago, as a hurricane threatened the Eastern Seaboard, New York's Office of Emergency Management was hurriedly planning a mass evacuation of Midtown in case the tower collapsed - decimating 18 blocks of Midtown like dominoes all the way to Central Park.
The Design Flaw That Almost Wiped Out an NYC Skyscraper
Roman Mars’ podcast 99% Invisible covers design questions large and small, from his fascination with rebar to the history of slot machines to the great ...
www.slate.com
Citigroup Center - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
And yet if someone were to say that such an event had occurred prior to evidence being provided you'd say it was a baseless conspiracy theory even if fragments of it were shown. After all, too many people were involved in such a thing for it to have been kept quiet right? None of the organizations involved had anything near the mandate to act in clandestine ways like that right?
Though the funny part is how that article says the CIA wouldn't do something the public wouldn't approve of before mentioning MKUltra and trying to write that off in the exact same sentence. Guess the CIA thought using Americans as test subjects for mind control wasn't too far for the public to be willing to stomach. It definitely wasn't for it's own members because the only reason the project was ever found out about was because someone had put some of the files in the wrong place and as a result they weren't destroyed. Then there's things like COINTELPRO which was only found out about because some people outright robbed the FBI and made off with the documents and then published them. Let that one sink in. The reason the general public got to learn about the FBI breaking every law in the book wasn't some insider blowing the whistle but activists breaking into one of their offices, stealing their files and sending them out.
Also this one is really funny considering what had gone down less then a year prior to this article:
South Korea's presidential scandal
The BBC explains the corruption scandal that has rocked South Korea and toppled its president.
www.bbc.com
Swirling Scandal Involving Shamanistic Cult Threatens S. Korean President
Tens of thousands took to the streets across South Korea Saturday, demanding the president resign over new revelations in a wide influence-peddling scandal.
www.npr.org
Why do you cite this person on what is or isn't a conspiracy theory? The dude by his own admission is a physiatrist. The only thing he's actually qualified for is mental health not telling you what is or isn't a conspiracy theory particularly when his own arguments crumble when discussing the actions of his own government agencies. He's basically just saying "well I don't believe it and I think it'd be difficult to pull off therefore it's a conspiracy" which is meaningless.
On the conspiracy note, people do realize that basically every intelligence organization and organized criminal group is engaged in "conspiracies" on a daily basis, right?
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
Every single day plotting.
Unhappy Anchovy
Well-known member
My response would be basically, "Such scandals do occur, but the scandal or conspiracy alleged here is far, far larger than that".
This is not a case of left-leaning papers spinning the news uncharitably. For the fraud argument to be plausible, you don't just need the New York Times to be lying and malicious. You need Fox News to be lying and malicious. You need international media to be lying and malicious. You need obvious Trump allies to be lying and malicious! The international element is important: Benjamin Netanyahu and Recep Tayyip Erdogan, for instance, leaders who have every reason to prefer a Trump victory, have called to congratulate Biden on victory.
You don't just need the Washington Post or whatever to be wrong. You need practically the entire global media to be wrong. Is everyone wrong? Even countries that have every reason to want Trump to win?
For that matter, as noted, you have Republican officials, who themselves have every reason to want Trump to win, saying that there's no significant fraud. You've already seen discussion of Brad Raffensperger, for instance. There are Republican calls to respect the process.
So I think the case for fraud here needs more than just the normal level of left-wing bias from sources like the New York Times or MSNBC. It needs a huge amount of people from all across the global political landscape - including Republicans, including right-wing news channels, including foreign observers, including people with every reason to want Trump to win - to either be lying or deceived. I do not think that's plausible.
What? No such thing! How dare you accuse us of doing such a thing! The US IC do no such things....
Chaos Marine
Well-known member
Jared Kushner, Melania Trump advise Trump to accept election loss
President Donald Trump's inner circle is beginning to split over his ongoing refusal to accept the results of the 2020 election, as Jared Kushner and first lady Melania Trump advised him to come to terms with President-elect Joe Biden's victory and his adult sons pressed him and allies to keep...
edition.cnn.com
"Two sources told CNN". Bullshit. CNN is lying and being malicious.
The president of the Federal Election Committee says the election is illegitimate.
A two-for. Wolf Blitzer of CNN tweeting an image of the New York Times lying and saying no proof election fraud found. Lying and being malicious. The media is literally in bed with the democrat party.
Major Networks Cut Away From Trump’s Baseless Fraud Claims (Published 2020)
Fox News and CNN stuck with the White House news conference but reported afterward that the president offered no evidence for his accusations of vote fraud.
ABC CBC and NBC cut away from a presidental news conference claiming he's putting out baseless accusations which is garbage. So lying and malicious. If he was lying then surely they could have fact checked what he'd said after but they're supposed to report the news and the president of your country making a news conference is news worthy, particularly about a serious event, even it's merely an accusation of fraud, the people deserve to know what the president wants to say and it's not their place to cut away.
Study: News Coverage Of Trump More Negative Than For Other Presidents
Reports on the current president are also less policy-focused and more about Trump's personality, according to The Pew Research Center. But that is not necessarily a reflection of the outlets' bias.
www.npr.org
Trump, 2017, 62% negative, 33% neither and 5% positive.
Since he became a serious contender, the media have done nothing but lie and be malicious towards Trump.
If you can honestly look back at the last four years and think they've been in any way, shape or form fair to him, you're positively insane.
[Edit] Never-Trumpers exist in the republican party too. Mitt Romney is infamous for being one. Is it any surprise that they're now coming to the forefront to stab him in the back for their own petty reasons?
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You don't actually need the media to be directly involved.
All you need is for their natural biases and desires to keep them anti-trump as they will refuse to investigate. I mean Twitter is flatly suppressing speech it disagrees with. The mainstream press has spent four years telling flat out lies about Trump and has only accelerated it over the past few weeks. Getting them to keep doing that takes no real effort.
And the big fraud? Dominion? That you are only really talking about a handful of people who would need to be involved. All that really needs to stay concealed is for people to refuse to investigate the claims, and self interest is a strong incentive there.
The Governor of Georgia? He was SecState when Dominion can in and his old Chief of Staff is now a registered Dominion lobbyist, the current GA SecState has received substantial money from the wife of a Dominion executive. If Dominion is shown to be flawed, these are the people on the hook for letting it in in the first place.
PA? The Philly democrat machine has been rigging elections there for literally a hundred years. Just this year they had a judge admit to taking money to rig races for Democrats, including in 2016. Three of those were judicial races and all three of those judges (names are concealed in public records) are still serving on the Philly court. Obama got literally 100% of the vote in some of the Philly precincts as well; sheer human error makes that questionable.
Detroit? When Jill Stein demanded her audit in 2016 it was suddenly stopped when multiple precincts were turning up more recorded votes than they had either paper ballots or recorded voters for the day.
Nevada? The Reid machine was rigging Clark County for decades and this time around there were literally ballots just laying in the streets.
I dunno about other places but over here the local media will happily parrot what the bigger American news groups say without really bothering to check over it and there's good reason to believe most other countries' news groups will do much the same. It's partly why Europe as a whole has such a negative view of Trump, most of it's information on him comes from American sources which hate his guts and have primed them to distrust pro Trump groups no matter how milquetoast they are. You overestimate the quality and willingness to do actual leg work from most of the "global media".
For the world leaders meanwhile it costs them nothing to have turned out to be wrong. They'll simply blame the American media for having sent out the wrong signals and say they had no real way to countercheck it. In the smaller countries' cases it'd even be true. And that's ignoring the ones who would actively prefer Biden over Trump who would quite happily believe any report which claims the former has won.
You can lead a man to the truth, but you cannot force him to think. We have provided evidence, and draw your eyes to what is readily apparent yet you ignore.
And you don't need them to be lying and malicious. There are many other explanations that neatly explain it as well, such as ignorance, cognitive dissonance, being forced to, genuinely believing something is the fact. Yet you assume it has to be malice and lies, and that it is all a conspiracy theory. What allies of Trump? The ones falsely claimed by the news? And need I point out that Justin Trudeau of all people is being careful with this? Maybe, he actually understands how dicey the situation is and does not want to make a bad move. And really, those men are obviously playing the odds, if Biden wins he isn't angry at them, and if Trump wins they can play it off. These men are canny political operators.
And the media has been wrong before. And so have many people. Just look at the Piltdown man, and how many people believed in that? People can will be wrong, and sometimes the vast majority of people can be wrong too. Or a certain tightly knit professional group can be too, since they share so many things in common.
So you mean a few RINOs or deluded fools? People who still believe in playing by the rules and not fighting back even after years of the democrats breaking those rules flagrantly? Why should I care for the opinions of invertebrates. And no it doesn't require people to be lying or malicious, there are many options that all fit. One of them is being like you, and I will move onto how I feel about you currently,
It does not matter what you think is possible, it matters what is possible. And really, it is clear that you are only bringing all of this up, because you don't want it to be possible. You don't want the truth, because you cannot handle it. It is far too terrible for you to admit, so you rationalize. You create a reality where the truth is falsehood, because that is what is comfortable. There is obvious fraud, yet you try to conjure up reasons why there isn't. I think you are an excellent example of why people don't need to be malicious, people just like you need to refuse to believe things. What would it take for you to believe any of this? What mountain must we ascend? If the hand of god were to write it clearly, you would contest it? Would Trump need Jesus to come down from heaven flanked by Buddha, Krishna, Thor, and Mr Rogers and outright corroborate his claims for you to believe it?
I honestly believe you always have had a blind spot to the wrongdoings of the left, because either you cannot believe people would be capable of what they are capable of or you do not want to. I do not want to think lowly of you, since you are good natured, intelligent, charismatic, interesting and many more things. You are the type of person that I would love to have around, for your very nature. However, it is obvious that you are unwilling or unable to acknowledge certain truths and therefore I ask of you to actually self-reflect on this, to ask yourself if you are looking at the world clearly, or you refuse to see evil, refuse to hear evil and refuse to speak of evil.
Your response is willing blindness.
Is it possible that Trump is just in denial and is leading his supporters off a cliff? Certainly. You've seen more than enough of our posts to know that most of us aren't charging into this blind. It's fully possible that Trump is wrong. It's also very possible that even if he's correct, he isn't able to change the results.
That does not change the fact that there are massive discrepancies that need to be explained. And for the media, for any media, to call the race for either candidate is incredibly harmful and irresponsible.
Like when they spun the truth on Trump's pee party. Or the Fine People's Hoax. Or his collusion with the Russian government. Or ignored Biden's blackmail of Ukraine. Or his son's drug-fueled erotica. Or going to bat to defend the modern genocide being committed by the Chinese.
Media outlets have already spoken malicious lies about Trump. I mean, pee tapes, I ask you?
Nor does it require outright malicious intent. Lots of other news organizations are not going to put their skin on the line for Trump. Especially when it's safer to just sit around and wait to see what happens.
Benjamin Netanyahu would personally blow any theoretical US administration so long as he thinks he'll get extra American assistance. Especially because a war-happy Biden administration is more advantageous to Israel than a less engaged Trump administration. Biden would be interested in containing Iran. Trump is not.
And I don't know how you think Erdogan is Trump's BFF when Trump dropped Syria in Turkey's lap.
Funny, a Forbes writer got his fucking story axed for trying to draw attention to the court challenges and Biden's strange numbers. Even if it's an opinion piece, why kill it? Why not treat it as the legal challenge it is, rather than trying to brainwash people by trying to pass on the presumption of it being baseless, when it's anything but?
Poll watchers being thrown out, ballots being recaste without poll watchers present, illegal actions by state executive branches, massive cybersecurity breaches, bizare ballot spikes for Biden in the tens to hundreds of thousands per state, and odd "glitches" that cause votes to be flipped.
You don't think ANY of that is unusual and should be taken on face value, because a handful of companies who greatly benefit from Biden being president go radio silent?
And yet Mitch McConnel, one of the highest ranking Republicans, is giving Trump his support in challenging the results of the election.
Global political landscape?
Shove it where the sun don't shine.
Literally every country on the planet EXCEPT Russia and Iran benefit from a re-engaged America. Literally every major foreign corporation outside of Russia and Iran massively benefit from a re-engaged economic America. Of course they aren't going to say anything. They want Biden because they don't give two shits if America's middle class withers on the vine, so long as they get the US Navy to protect their precious energy and trade lanes.
Unhappy Anchovy
Well-known member
Oh, the media certainly hate Trump. That was never in question.
But that's not what the question is. The question is not, "Does the media hate Trump?" The question is, "Was there election fraud?"
This is the same media that did not hesitate to call the election for Trump in 2016. Today we are not just talking about left-wing or mainstream media: we're talking about Fox, we're talking about media outlets in every other country, we're talking about Republicans. Pastor Robert Jeffress grants that Biden won, and he is literally the guy behind this. You cite cutting away from a press conference: Fox did that as well, and Fox are pretty darn right-wing.
Here's my contention. This -
- is not enough.
That is not remotely enough to explain it, because as noted agents with every possible reason to be pro-Trump are calling it for Biden, from Erdogan to Jeffress.
See above. The problem is that this reads as, well, the same sort of thing as people earlier saying that Fox and Murdoch are anti-Trump leftists. Anyone who denies that there's a conspiracy is part of the conspiracy.
Justin Trudeau congratulated Biden on his election victory a week ago. Note also that the Conservative Party leader, Erin O'Toole, has also congratulated Biden, so it's not just a matter of the left.
This isn't an argument. This is just yelling, "You can't handle the truth!" at me.
It's not "a few RINOs or deluded fools", SSR. It's practically everyone. Here's the thing: either Trump and his closest allies are lying or deluded (which would be unsurprising and highly in-character for them), or the entire world has been fooled by the largest and most efficient vote-rigging operation in the world which is somehow nonetheless so flimsy that amateurs on Twitter have exposed it (which is ridiculously implausible).
I think the former is more likely than the latter.
This isn't precisely true. McConnell has not endorsed Trump's claims of fraud - what he's done is support Trump having the right to call for an investigation. My reading of McConnell is that he's carefully walking the tightrope: he knows the GOP can't afford to alienate Trump's base right now, so the strategy is to humour Trump, at least in the short term. The closest McConnell has come is saying that, "the president is one hundred percent within his rights to look into allegations of irregularities and weigh his legal options".
The issue is the media held off calling a 98 percent state to trump that is a swing state, went here were no way as many votes as they said were until it was in bidens favor.
They also called Arizona early...multiple times.
People also need to remember one thing. President Trumps target audience is was and remains the State Legislatures that actually pick the Electors. Most of which are Republican. Anyone thinking that those Legislatures that already like Trump are gonna back blatant fraud got another thing coming. They are under no obligation to pick Biden. They can chose Trump very easily.
Actually both are pertinent questions, because if the media hates Trump do you think they'd report on this honestly?
It doesn't seem that he granted Biden won. He seems to be more playing it safe and is prepared to accept Biden if he actually does win. Sounds like you are putting words in this man's mouth so that you can prove a point. Seems pretty dishonest to me.
Again we provided plenty of reasons for this. Yet you ignore it. These men have plenty of reasons to congratulate Biden, especially with his proven track record. The man is a vindictive and mean old goat, just look at what the did the the right honorable Clarence Thomas? Did that man ever apologize for his actions? Does he feel a shred of guilty for what he did? Does the man even have a conscience or any shame in his body?
Please don't lie. I am talking about all of the fake news involving Trump's inner circle, it is obvious. Spreading rumors about his inner circle advising him to concede. I am going to say it how it actually is, if there is a conspiracy anyone who denies is either a member of it, ignorant of the situation, just plain ignorant, or an idiot. There is always more than one option, the rest you seem zestful to leave out.
Unfortunate, it seems that they have gone against their word and influenced the political process. I will not vote for Erin the tool since he has shown a distinct lack of moral integrity. It was to be expected from Trudeau.
Because it is the truth, and readily apparent. You cannot handle the truth so you flee to a comforting lie. It is not my fault you lack the conviction to confront the truth. I'd actually say that someone's inability to handle the truth is an argument, especially if it causes them to ignore all the information in favour of it.
Practically everyone, what a hoot. If it was everyone then why do you actually have so many people supporting Trump? Why do you have the private suits on this? Who is this everyone you speak of? For it to be everyone there seem to be a lot of people who believe it to be the case in general. And isn't saying everyone believes it in fact a fallacy?
If it is so apparent, why does the Lincoln project and the rest feel so threatened- especially enough to threaten Trump's lawyers. The fact that opposition feels this threatened by Trump's actions proves he is right. If you have nothing to hide, then why would you oppose a recount? Why would you oppose investigation? Why would people actually try to cover up evidence that says it actually happened? Or silence people making the claims? If it wasn't true then why would they be so invested in countering it at all? Wouldn't they actually let Trump run through his legal remedies? And really if Trump was lying about this why would he flipping bother? It seems like far too much effort to run through if it weren't the case. So how plausible is it that when you are innocent of wrong-doing you try to thwart legal remedy to potential wrong-doing, you censor any mention of wrong-doing that you can, you consistently call the people who think there was wrong-doing crazy and demean them, you oppose any investigation into wrong-doing, you actually threaten people on the side claiming wrong-doing? How plausible is it that the supposedly innocent person acts like they are guilty as sin? Because that sounds plenty implausible to me, and it is clear you are only bringing up plausibility when it suits you.
I stand by what I say, because it is obvious you are ignoring the facts because you don't want to confront them. In fact I can remember you doing this for years? Whenever the left does something wrong or outrageous you always see recalcitrant to believe or acknowledge it. How many people here can attest to facing the same impossible to scale wall with you?
A reading that conveniently supports your narrative, how quaint. It is almost the exact same reading as the man above! Also how quaint.
You really do like your ad hominem attacks, huh?
They can also be vetoed by Democratic governors, and have their angry populace burn down the state-house before they could vote.
Sadly Illiteracy is common, Pointing out that somebody holding himself out as a legal expert has been wrong in the past in the opposite of ad-hommein.