Religion Does the New Testament teach that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament, Yahweh?
- Thread starter Stargazer
- Start date
Early books,not Isaiah.
And old testament wrote about fictional genocide when the same population lived there from bronze age till 1948,Fictional Salomon kingdom from Egypt to Eufrat,and dictional queen Estera and her fictional genocide of persian elites.
If i was protestant,i would lost faith long ago.
Here,another:
2 Corinthians 1:9-10
9 Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us again. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us,
Here - Jesus raised 3 dead,so it could imply that it is about HIM.You have 0,5 point.
Another:
2 Corinthians 1:12-14
Paul’s Change of Plans
12 Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity[a] and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God’s grace. 13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, 14 as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Here,God is God,and Jesus is Lord.
Another:
2 Corinthians 1:18-22
18 But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not “Yes” and “No.” 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silas[a] and Timothy—was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.” 20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Here,God is God,and Jesus His Son who fullfilled Gods promises - but not God.
I am doing what protestant should - check what NT say about Jesus.And you are keeping to your tradition as argument,as if you were bad papist like me.Funny,is it not?
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Early books, which are still part of the Old Testament, which is the Scripture that God spoke through the prophets, according to the Nicene Creed and the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Does God make mistakes when he speaks?
I don't know what faith you have. Certainly not Catholic, because you're denying what the Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches.
Why do you even care what the Old Testament and New Testament teach? You clearly don't believe a word of it. You actually hate God's Law.
I am doing what protestant should - check what NT say about Jesus.And you are keeping to your tradition as argument,as if you were bad papist like me.Funny,is it not?
I have never once referred to tradition outside of the New Testament as my argument for why Jesus is the God of the New Testament. All you're doing is failing miserably at reading comprehension, logic, and reasoning.
But you're right, it is kind of funny. Funny how one person, you, can be this dumb.
King Arts
Well-known member
Say if you don't believe in the old testament kingdoms isn't that against Catholic theology? Catholics believe David, Solomon, etc were real.Early books,not Isaiah.
And old testament wrote about fictional genocide when the same population lived there from bronze age till 1948,Fictional Salomon kingdom from Egypt to Eufrat,and dictional queen Estera and her fictional genocide of persian elites.
If i was protestant,i would lost faith long ago.
Here,another:
2 Corinthians 1:9-10
9 Indeed, we felt we had received the sentence of death. But this happened that we might not rely on ourselves but on God, who raises the dead. 10 He has delivered us from such a deadly peril, and he will deliver us again. On him we have set our hope that he will continue to deliver us,
Here - Jesus raised 3 dead,so it could imply that it is about HIM.You have 0,5 point.
Another:
2 Corinthians 1:12-14
Paul’s Change of Plans
12 Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity[a] and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God’s grace. 13 For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, 14 as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Here,God is God,and Jesus is Lord.
Another:
2 Corinthians 1:18-22
18 But as surely as God is faithful, our message to you is not “Yes” and “No.” 19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us—by me and Silas[a] and Timothy—was not “Yes” and “No,” but in him it has always been “Yes.” 20 For no matter how many promises God has made, they are “Yes” in Christ. And so through him the “Amen” is spoken by us to the glory of God. 21 Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Here,God is God,and Jesus His Son who fullfilled Gods promises - but not God.
I am doing what protestant should - check what NT say about Jesus.And you are keeping to your tradition as argument,as if you were bad papist like me.Funny,is it not?
Also since this is going in circles let's change to this. You are Catholic why do you think that the Pope is the head of the Church?
King Arts
Well-known member
I'm sorry I missed this.
But Genesis 30:2 they are fighting over Rachel not having kids.
Genesis 30:2 - Dan and Naphtali
Jacob became angry with Rachel and said, Am I in the place of God, who has withheld children from you?
biblehub.com
And while polygamy has caused strife like Joseph's brothers hating him and trying to kill him, or the strife between Isaac, and Ismael that continues in the war between Arabs and Jews, that is not unique to polygamy. The very first monogamous couple Adam and Eve, their son Cain killed Abel his brother because of favoritism God showed him. Also Jacob himself and his brother Esau they were of the same mother, yet again the mother favored Jacob and helped him steal Esau's blessing, and that led to the descendants of Esau and Jacob fighting amongst each other.
You made the claim that Jacob's marriages were shown to be "ok"; that's simply false. There are dysfunctional, sin-ridden families from monogamous marriages in the Bible, sure; that's irrelevant to the claim you made.I'm sorry I missed this.
But Genesis 30:2 they are fighting over Rachel not having kids.
Genesis 30:2 - Dan and Naphtali
Jacob became angry with Rachel and said, Am I in the place of God, who has withheld children from you?biblehub.com
And while polygamy has caused strife like Joseph's brothers hating him and trying to kill him, or the strife between Isaac, and Ismael that continues in the war between Arabs and Jews, that is not unique to polygamy. The very first monogamous couple Adam and Eve, their son Cain killed Abel his brother because of favoritism God showed him. Also Jacob himself and his brother Esau they were of the same mother, yet again the mother favored Jacob and helped him steal Esau's blessing, and that led to the descendants of Esau and Jacob fighting amongst each other.
King Arts
Well-known member
Where are they called out? Neither Isaac's monogamous marriage is criticized, nor Jacob's polygamous marriages.
I didn't say it was called out or criticized. You're the one claiming it was "ok". Like @Bear Ribs said, I don't know what to tell you if you think those marriages and family situation were "ok".
King Arts
Well-known member
When I say ok. I mean not prohibited. If God does not prohibit something then it is ok to do. God gave rules, he said what you can eat and what you can't eat. The type of people you are allowed to marry, and the type it is forbidden to marry. He was very exact in his commandments, I don't believe God made a mistake and "forgot" to put in a restriction on something this important.
If God was this exact with everything else on what you can't do, but is silent on this other thing. The other thing is probably acceptable.
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
That's some fine twisting of scripture you have going on there. What is the context of Genesis 30, just one single verse right in front of the one you quoted?I'm sorry I missed this.
But Genesis 30:2 they are fighting over Rachel not having kids.
Genesis 30:2 - Dan and Naphtali
Jacob became angry with Rachel and said, Am I in the place of God, who has withheld children from you?biblehub.com
New International Version
When Rachel saw that she was not bearing Jacob any children, she became jealous of her sister. So she said to Jacob, “Give me children, or I’ll die!”
You dare to literally crop out the most significant part, the entire cause of it being Rachel's jealousy of her sister to change its meaning to children? Does that truly seem like an honest reading of those scriptures to you?
That's a strawman. The claim was that there were happy polygamous marriages in the bible, not that all monogamous marriages were always happy all the time with no strife and all conflict came from polygamy. Obviously the latter is nonsense, although I'll note your examples are of strive between siblings, not marriage mates, so not applicable anyway.
We don't see happy, healthy polygamous marriages in the bible. Rachel and Leah cause strife when both marry the same man. Abram is shown to have a very happy marriage with Sarai but then (after becoming Abraham and Sarah) there becomes family issues and fighting between them when Abraham takes Hagar as a wife as well. David's indiscretions are well documented. The first book of Samuel opens with the incessant bullying of Samuel's mother by a rival wife.
And we see it is forbidden in the New Testament.
English Standard Version
Therefore an overseer must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, sober-minded, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
Polygamy was tolerated by God during periods of high combat, when men would naturally have so many losses many women would have no chance of obtaining a husband otherwise. But it was clearly only barely tolerable, God supplied one wife to Adam in Eve, and the scripture then says that a man will stick with his wife, not wives.
New International Version
That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh.
Polygamy was allowed for a time but was never encouraged by God, and as it was in the beginning, He returned to His preferred standard of Monogamy once the circumstances requiring Polygamy were gone.
Then your example of Jacob's marriages is irrelevant, because people simply being shown to do something in the Bible is not necessarily indicative of it being morally acceptable.
And your claim is still just wrong, because God was exact in identifying having more than one wife as "reproachable" in 1 Timothy.
By first-century Roman standards, yes having two wives would look very bad. Paul's point that church leaders should be people free from scandal.
Funny, I don't need people in robes and funny hats to tell me that being indwelled by the Holy Spirit is not the same as Pantheism.
And here we have a classic case of the text saying one thing, and people like you seeing something totally different there, because you have been taught to see it there.
No, Paul does not say that the bread they were eating was Jesus' body. Look at the actual words.
Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all share the one loaf.
It's not the food they are eating that is Jesus' body - it's the people who are eating it. Paul teaches this consistently - believers are Christ's body, His visible presence on Earth.
1.Early books,which name Jahwe as El,caananite god of heaven.According to your logic,it made Jahwe average pagan god.
And God do not made mistakes - but people who wrote Bible could.
That is why i do not lost faith when i discovered that Salomon powerpuff Kingdom from Egypt to Euphrat was myth,and in reality he was local chieftain ruling from town who have top 2.000 people.
Unless you try to argue that it existed,but then where are ruins of jewish towns ruled by Salomon on Euphrat river? or why pharaons and kings of both Babilonia and Assyria never mentioned such kingdoms in their letters?
2.Then show me,when Jesus openly said that HE is God? even after Ressurection HE only said that HE is Messiah.
And in other NT books you found 2 places when HE is described as God.I found another - and almost 100 when HE is Son of God,Messiah,Lord - but never God.
If people recognized HIM as God,then they would wrote about Him as God.Just like they wrote about Jahwe.
Here,another:
2 Corinthians 2:14-17
14 But thanks be to God, who always leads us as captives in Christ’s triumphal procession and uses us to spread the aroma of the knowledge of him everywhere. 15 For we are to God the pleasing aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. 16 To the one we are an aroma that brings death; to the other, an aroma that brings life. And who is equal to such a task? 17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, as those sent from God.
Here,Jesus is Messiah/Christ/,and God is God.
1.I belive that they existed - but,since Archeology exist,too,i knew that powerpuff Salomon Kingdom is myth.
Otherwise we would have ruins from Euphrat to Egypt leaved by it,and both pharaohs and kings of Babilonia and Assyria would mentioned them in their letters.They could lied about it,but mentioned it.
2.It is easier then belive that Jesus is God - becouse Jesus never openly said that HE is God,but fave Peter Keys to His Kingdom.
And Tradition,of course.
Only reason why i could belive that Jesus is God and God is Trinity is becouse of that,becouse it was never said by Jesus Himself.
Here,another:
2 Corinthians 3:3-6
3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence we have through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
Here,again Jesus is Christ/Messiah/,and God is God.
The Nicene Creed says God spoke through the prophets. If you think they made mistakes, then you think God makes mistakes. I thought you believed the Nicene Creed? Is that what your "faith" is in?
You've never called me a human, you must think I'm an alien or something. Stop thinking I'm an alien, it's idiotic.
I'm sorry I missed this.
But Genesis 30:2 they are fighting over Rachel not having kids.
Genesis 30:2 - Dan and Naphtali
Jacob became angry with Rachel and said, Am I in the place of God, who has withheld children from you?biblehub.com
And while polygamy has caused strife like Joseph's brothers hating him and trying to kill him, or the strife between Isaac, and Ismael that continues in the war between Arabs and Jews, that is not unique to polygamy. The very first monogamous couple Adam and Eve, their son Cain killed Abel his brother because of favoritism God showed him. Also Jacob himself and his brother Esau they were of the same mother, yet again the mother favored Jacob and helped him steal Esau's blessing, and that led to the descendants of Esau and Jacob fighting amongst each other.
True.Bible,at least old Testament,never forbid polygamy.
Here,another:
2 Corinthians 3:15-18
15 Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16 But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate[a] the Lord’s glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
Here,we could imply that Jesus is God.
0,5 point.
And if the Bible did say that the sky is blue, ATP would claim that scholars had proven it was really green, but he believes it to be purple, because Tradition.